FL Winter Panther: Stalingrad (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

I use a mig wash which, gives a good effect when weathering standard grey AFV's. The german heer did not blue wash their AFV's that I have come across but, unless you continure weathering after it gives IMO a false colour
Mitch

A

Some Grey AFV 1:35 scale models are painted grey but seem to have a bluish faded tint...I tend to like that style of faded grey....I don't know if that's an accurate representation but looks good to me.

 

[fmethorst]

Even if we had a reliable original color swatch we would still need to understand the valid range of variation once the paint got into the field. I don't think anyone wants their AFVs to look like they just rolled out of the factory door.

At some point I hope we do get more definitive answers regarding all of the colors but there will always be a level of subjectivity when dealing with reproductions of weathered field equipment.

 

[FirstLegion]

One thing you guys are all overlooking is the "scale" effect which makes colors lighter. A German AFV, even when brand new rolling off the production line, when viewed at a distance is going to look a lot lighter than the RAL swatches (at a distance all colors look lighter than they actually are). So when painting miniature tanks, this scale effect has to be taken into consideration (i.e. actual viewing distance multiplied by 30). Anyone who just takes the swatch and tries to match is going to end up with a vehicle that just doesn't look right at all, it will be much too dark. I've seen this on some vehicles painted by some collectors. They think they have it right, but they don't. Just an observation.

Take a look at the vehicles painted by top modellers and they are invariably very light. Take a look at vehicles painted by people who try to match RAL swatches and they don't look right at all.

 

[Blowtorch]

I use a mig wash which, gives a good effect when weathering standard grey AFV's. The german heer did not blue wash their AFV's that I have come across but, unless you continure weathering after it gives IMO a false colour
Mitch

A

The blue comes from the prime pigment of Panzer Grey which is Lampblack.

 

[Blowtorch]

The blue comes from the prime pigment of Panzer Grey which is Lampblack.

I'd like to elaborate...

Correct color has been a constant learning process for me. I have looked at the US Army R&D tech reports on their own colors as well as Brit intelligence reports on the German paint industry, and it's difficult to come to a conclusion as to what is right, and what is wrong. Some conclusions are:

1) All the countries (minus US) had the same technology for color control...with the US having a slight lead. However that lead was invested in uniform dyes...so wrt paint, all is the same. And the technology was quite primitive and completely subjective.

2) For US OD & dark matte colors in general, the color control technology was found to be of little value

3) In the US at least, matte colors were for wartime camouflage purposes, and color was not of primary or secondary concern. The biggest concern by a wide margin was corrosion control. The Silver Medal went to IR camouflage formulations & color got the Bronze Medal. This all holds for US, Brit & German industry.

4) Pigments are an interesting point. The Germans were lucky because the premier ochre, sienna & umber mines were all Axis! Spain, Italy, France, Turkey. So they certainly weren't hurting for raw materials...whether they could afford them or had other procurement issues...I don't know. For example, it don't matter if you can get the best French Ochre or Turkish Umber is your linseed oil factories are being bombed.

5) Going back to quality control & the lack of...I was stunned however that when I tested the paint from a WW2 can of OD, & compared it with the color control chip from a completely independent source...the delta E was a phenomenal 0.4! That's a big point for the guys who want to believe in high quality control (in other words, there is only 1 correct color for anything).

6) wrt Panzer Grey, you can imagine if the Americans were telling of a hard time with dark matte colors (like US OD), it must have been far worse for the Germans and their greys. However, see 5) above^&grin

7) If you look at a pre-1950 Munsell Book of Color, it's interesting to see that all the Grey neutrals are really a bluish grey. It goes to show the thinking of 'grey' at the time. Fortunately all the Munsell chips were measured by that expensive technology (which got put to use in American dyes during the war), so there isn't any question that the colors have changed over time. I've even done random samplings out of the 1929 Munsell Book of Color, and the colors have remained remarkably stable.

some ramblings

 

[Mitch]

Is it not the case that these ''top'' quality models are painted with a combination of full weathering techniques so, as happens in the field you have rain stains fuel stains oil grease mud wet and dry in different states, dust, and sunlight etc. This is why rather than a standard grey which, for many years was all the model world has we now have the variety of weathering agents. Its why one uses a variety of acrylics in the grey from yellow green white and so on and blend with white spirits to gain tonal variation as one section of an AFV can be a completely different colour to another.


I think in the case of FL there is insufficient weathering on your AFV's and there is not enough on the running gear and tracks. You talk of the swatches and the incorrect identification by collectors replicating these colours (do you say that as a painter or as a producer as those collectors etc you state have got it wrong would like to know if its just a non painting opinion or based on doing the job itself and, would you post some of your field grey repaints for us to peruse?? ) Half of your AFV's IMO look like they have come straight from the factory I wonder, if you could explain why you do this, for as nice as they look in my opinion they look a little unrealistic. With the mention of the scale effect it seems you are basically saying we are right and you are wrong???
Mitch

One thing you guys are all overlooking is the "scale" effect which makes colors lighter. A German AFV, even when brand new rolling off the production line, when viewed at a distance is going to look a lot lighter than the RAL swatches (at a distance all colors look lighter than they actually are). So when painting miniature tanks, this scale effect has to be taken into consideration (i.e. actual viewing distance multiplied by 30). Anyone who just takes the swatch and tries to match is going to end up with a vehicle that just doesn't look right at all, it will be much too dark. I've seen this on some vehicles painted by some collectors. They think they have it right, but they don't. Just an observation.

Take a look at the vehicles painted by top modellers and they are invariably very light. Take a look at vehicles painted by people who try to match RAL swatches and they don't look right at all.

 

[FirstLegion]

Is it not the case that these ''top'' quality models are painted with a combination of full weathering techniques so, as happens in the field you have rain stains fuel stains oil grease mud wet and dry in different states, dust, and sunlight etc. This is why rather than a standard grey which, for many years was all the model world has we now have the variety of weathering agents. Its why one uses a variety of acrylics in the grey from yellow green white and so on and blend with white spirits to gain tonal variation as one section of an AFV can be a completely different colour to another.


I think in the case of FL there is insufficient weathering on your AFV's and there is not enough on the running gear and tracks. You talk of the swatches and the incorrect identification by collectors replicating these colours (do you say that as a painter or as a producer as those collectors etc you state have got it wrong would like to know if its just a non painting opinion or based on doing the job itself and, would you post some of your field grey repaints for us to peruse?? ) Half of your AFV's IMO look like they have come straight from the factory I wonder, if you could explain why you do this, for as nice as they look in my opinion they look a little unrealistic. With the mention of the scale effect it seems you are basically saying we are right and you are wrong???
Mitch

Hi, Mitch,

My post was strictly about the "color" of the vehicle which some people were saying they think is too light. I disagree with that and pointed out the scale effect which makes colors appear lighter than they are, I haven't touched on weathering as it relates to things other than color. As for the weathering of our vehicles, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but needless to say we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well, which is fine. If you think they look like they come straight from the factory, I would suggest you take a closer look.

So you are saying that these aren't weathered enough? If that's what you think, then nothing I can say would change your mind, so really no point in discussing it further.

 

[Vezzolf]

Mitch, I must say that I disagree with your *****ment regarding First Legions AFV's...I think that FL is producing the best detailed,painted/weathered WWII AFV models out there today "well above" the level of all the other major manufacturers....I will agree they could use a "little more" track and wheel weathering but that's all.....Also If a manufacturer over-does the mud, dirt and rust, the model may not appeal to some collectors that is something that could be latter detailed by the customer....Some of the WWII models I see being released by the other major manufacturers are quite simply: "poorly painted", "poorly detailed" and unrealistic and "over-priced"..."Toy-like"....Requiring complete re-paints...which are costly and time consuming....First Legion is producing the closest thing to 1:35 scale Master Modeling.....That is Quite Obvious......Respectfully Frank

 

[Mitch]

Matt...

I think you have missed my point or not read exactly what I stated. My point about weathering and such was from hull down not above the tracks i.e. tracks and road wheels and behind the wheels for me is overlooked.

Vezzolf...

I am not and I think the many talks we have had in any camp and, I was not saying that the quality is not there as this was not what we were talking about I was talking strictly about paint style and colour which, imo is a little light which, I think, before everyone else goes mad that FL is being attacked, as my box has some unred PM's was not the point of my post and, Frank has commented similarly. I am being slightly critical but, I think rather constructively its not about comparing with other manufacturers we are directly looking at FL singularly.

I critique everyones ranges and, IMO there have been issues I have raised which, for the standard and what is expoused from FL are not correct. This for me what its all about. I agree about over weathering as when I do commissions many want light weathering so they fit with existing sets.
Mitch

Hi, Mitch,

My post was strictly about the "color" of the vehicle which some people were saying they think is too light. I disagree with that and pointed out the scale effect which makes colors appear lighter than they are, I haven't touched on weathering as it relates to things other than color. As for the weathering of our vehicles, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but needless to say we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well, which is fine. If you think they look like they come straight from the factory, I would suggest you take a closer look.

So you are saying that these aren't weathered enough? If that's what you think, then nothing I can say would change your mind, so really no point in discussing it further.

 

[sammy719]

Is it not the case that these ''top'' quality models are painted with a combination of full weathering techniques so, as happens in the field you have rain stains fuel stains oil grease mud wet and dry in different states, dust, and sunlight etc. This is why rather than a standard grey which, for many years was all the model world has we now have the variety of weathering agents. Its why one uses a variety of acrylics in the grey from yellow green white and so on and blend with white spirits to gain tonal variation as one section of an AFV can be a completely different colour to another.


I think in the case of FL there is insufficient weathering on your AFV's and there is not enough on the running gear and tracks. You talk of the swatches and the incorrect identification by collectors replicating these colours (do you say that as a painter or as a producer as those collectors etc you state have got it wrong would like to know if its just a non painting opinion or based on doing the job itself and, would you post some of your field grey repaints for us to peruse?? ) Half of your AFV's IMO look like they have come straight from the factory I wonder, if you could explain why you do this, for as nice as they look in my opinion they look a little unrealistic. With the mention of the scale effect it seems you are basically saying we are right and you are wrong???
Mitch

Mitch, I took a look at some of your pics on your profile of your Grey German tanks, and see no weathering at all, maybe I am missing it?? look pretty bland to me, if your re-paints are the correct color I'll stick with First Legions colors gladly.

You tend to always point out imperfections on critique all the manufacturers on Treefrog, maybe you should tone it down, try and find some good instead of constantly looking for what you think is wrong, or just buy model kits and be happy with your own work...Sammy

 

[FirstLegion]

Matt...
I think you have missed my point or not read exactly what I stated. My point about weathering and such was from hull down not above the tracks i.e. tracks and road wheels and behind the wheels for me is overlooked.

Actually, I may have missed your point, but only because i did read exactly what you wrote. What you had said was "I think in the case of FL there is insufficient weathering on your AFV's and there is not enough on the running gear and tracks." So reading exactly what you wrote is that a) there is insufficient weathering on our AFVs and b) there is insufficient weathering on the tracks and road wheels.

Anyway, no worries, I understand what you're saying now. I don't agree, but I do understand.

 

[Mitch]

I think your being a little picky. I was one of a number including Frank and phantom warrior who believed the paint to be too light yet, I am the only one being singled out. If you have the opportunity to look at my repaints then look at all the positive posts I place about all manufacturers. Now, if this company is beyond critique, then its really very sad. This is a free and open forum and, I was joining in about the content of the thread that, was not raised by me. There was no trawling etc and no wind up just pure constructive critique.

I responded to points raised by Matt and, thats was it. I think with the greatest respect some FL and K&C collectors need to stop defending a company that they buy toy soldiers from as if its a fight protecting family etc. The moderators on this site ensure I am within the rules etc of this forum.

If stating, I believe that there is insufficient weathering on the lower half of these AFV's (which, has been stated by the two franks who are big collectors then what is needing toned down in my post???) I have FL but, care to sit on the sidelines, the last critique was the wrong formation with the AK Panzer III and, did say it looked a nice release. If I was wanting to cause trouble then I could easily have raised the colour before anyone else has.

So, unless I am told that my tone is incorrect by a mod then I will continue to contribute both positively and negatively when needed, that is what a discussion forum is all about. Nowhere do I see any rules that say we have to protect FL from the nasty people who would dare critique its products. even though you were rude about the repaints which, I think is petty you were not outrageously offensive as Gebhard who thought it good to cast doubts on my sanity in PM.

What a strange day when one cannot comment upon the hobby and agreeing with a few that grey is a shade different or two for fear of someone or other taking umbridge and it personally
Mitch

Mitch, I took a look at some of your pics on your profile of your Grey German tanks, and see no weathering at all, maybe I am missing it?? look pretty bland to me, if your re-paints are the correct color I'll stick with First Legions colors gladly.

You tend to always point out imperfections on critique all the manufacturers on Treefrog, maybe you should tone it down, try and find some good instead of constantly looking for what you think is wrong, or just buy model kits and be happy with your own work...Sammy

 

[thebritfarmer]

Let's not have this post turn into a mud slinging match please gentlemen. We all have our favourite brands and opinions but we don't have to be rude just because someone does not agree with them.

 

[sammy719]

I think your being a little picky. I was one of a number including Frank and phantom warrior who believed the paint to be too light yet, I am the only one being singled out. If you have the opportunity to look at my repaints then look at all the positive posts I place about all manufacturers. Now, if this company is beyond critique, then its really very sad. This is a free and open forum and, I was joining in about the content of the thread that, was not raised by me. There was no trawling etc and no wind up just pure constructive critique.

I responded to points raised by Matt and, thats was it. I think with the greatest respect some FL and K&C collectors need to stop defending a company that they buy toy soldiers from as if its a fight protecting family etc. The moderators on this site ensure I am within the rules etc of this forum.

If stating, I believe that there is insufficient weathering on the lower half of these AFV's (which, has been stated by the two franks who are big collectors then what is needing toned down in my post???) I have FL but, care to sit on the sidelines, the last critique was the wrong formation with the AK Panzer III and, did say it looked a nice release. If I was wanting to cause trouble then I could easily have raised the colour before anyone else has.

So, unless I am told that my tone is incorrect by a mod then I will continue to contribute both positively and negatively when needed, that is what a discussion forum is all about. Nowhere do I see any rules that say we have to protect FL from the nasty people who would dare critique its products. even though you were rude about the repaints which, I think is petty you were not outrageously offensive as Gebhard who thought it good to cast doubts on my sanity in PM.

What a strange day when one cannot comment upon the hobby and agreeing with a few that grey is a shade different or two for fear of someone or other taking umbridge and it personally
Mitch

So I can't critque your repaints but you can critque everyone else product?? hmmm..sounds a little double edgy to me there Mitch, no Mitch I'm totally open to honesty and fair play, but if I come on to a site where folks spend hard money on a product they really enjoy and love to collect and start pin pointing everything I think is wrong with that product I probabley would just move on and call it a day, I just see no reason why people want to argue about the tint of grey or the color of a wheel etc???? and to honest with you Mitch I don't care if you painted your tanks purple, if that what makes you happy go for it, just how about a little live and let live for awhile?...Sammy

 

[Vezzolf]

Mitch, I must say that I disagree with your *****ment regarding First Legions AFV's...I think that FL is producing the best detailed,painted/weathered WWII AFV models out there today "well above" the level of all the other major manufacturers....I will agree they could use a "little more" track and wheel weathering but that's all.....Also If a manufacturer over-does the mud, dirt and rust, the model may not appeal to some collectors that is something that could be latter detailed by the customer....Some of the WWII models I see being released by the other major manufacturers are quite simply: "poorly painted", "poorly detailed" and unrealistic and "over-priced"..."Toy-like"....Requiring complete re-paints...which are costly and time consuming....First Legion is producing the closest thing to 1:35 scale Master Modeling.....That is Quite Obvious......Respectfully Frank

Personally I did not find Mitch's posts to be offensive in any way...I simply disagree with his *****sment of FL AFV's (as per my post response #48).......He is more than entitled to his opinions......Members must be allowed to critique products in an open honest way...In a Spirit of Good Discussion{sm4}.......this forum must allow for varied opinions,new ideas and improvements to be addressed in order for members to make educated non-bias decisions regarding their purchases.... also helps manufacturers to get some feedback on products

 

[uksubs]

Personally I did not find Mitch's posts to be offensive in any way...I simply disagree with his *****sment of FL AFV's (as per my post response #48).......He is more than entitled to his opinions......Members must be allowed to critique products in an open honest way...In a Spirit of Good Discussion{sm4}.......this forum must allow for varied opinions,new ideas and improvements to be addressed in order for members to make educated non-bias decisions regarding their purchases.... also helps manufacturers to get some feedback on products

Well said agree 100% {bravo}}

 

[Mitch]

Firstly, thank you Frank I now know how you must feel at times!!!!

Sammy....

I am sorry but, I have been on here a year and, I have made four, what you see as negative comments about the FL product. If that is causing you and another annoyance or issues then it is not for me to comment as to why that is. That is hardly causing trouble or attacking FL.

I can assure you that there was no argument about the grey colour, should you look back until I was seemingly castigated in my mental ability and, my painting skills by yourself and Gebhard. I did not state that my version is right or better I was commenting from the years of modelling and repainting entering competitions and told by some of the top modellers that my stuff was ok so, I thought I would comment. It is also worthy to note that its one of the hardest colour ways to replicate IMO. I am not in the least offended that you brought up negative comments about my repaints I just think it was done in a manner of tit for tat and thats why I thought it somewhat picky.

I think as Frank (not vezzolf) etc commented on the same thing that I am able to discuss colour tints and other issues. Matt made a comment which, I thought did not really answer the question and replied asking for clarification. I don't think that it could even be construed as an attack against FL.

I can guarantee you and Gebhard that I will continue to address issues that I clearly see with manufacturers including FL as, this to many, makes the product better. Just think you would all be buying 5th Panzer Afrika Korp Panzer III's if it were not for I bringing up the wrong unit.

Thats what I have said all along about constructive critique, its a good thing, rather than just saying your stuff is this or that have a valid point and,then its an important point. I have said many times in the K&C thread (as this nonsense only goes on their and here) That critique is more important than constant Rah Rah.

Hopefully this can be put to bed and discussion about other issues be continued. I do look forward to discussing future FL products with you all.
Mitch

 

[sammy719]

Firstly, thank you Frank I now know how you must feel at times!!!!

Sammy....

I am sorry but, I have been on here a year and, I have made four, what you see as negative comments about the FL product. If that is causing you and another annoyance or issues then it is not for me to comment as to why that is. That is hardly causing trouble or attacking FL.

I can assure you that there was no argument about the grey colour, should you look back until I was seemingly castigated in my mental ability and, my painting skills by yourself and Gebhard. I did not state that my version is right or better I was commenting from the years of modelling and repainting entering competitions and told by some of the top modellers that my stuff was ok so, I thought I would comment. It is also worthy to note that its one of the hardest colour ways to replicate IMO. I am not in the least offended that you brought up negative comments about my repaints I just think it was done in a manner of tit for tat and thats why I thought it somewhat picky.

I think as Frank (not vezzolf) etc commented on the same thing that I am able to discuss colour tints and other issues. Matt made a comment which, I thought did not really answer the question and replied asking for clarification. I don't think that it could even be construed as an attack against FL.

I can guarantee you and Gebhard that I will continue to address issues that I clearly see with manufacturers including FL as, this to many, makes the product better. Just think you would all be buying 5th Panzer Afrika Korp Panzer III's if it were not for I bringing up the wrong unit.

Thats what I have said all along about constructive critique, its a good thing, rather than just saying your stuff is this or that have a valid point and,then its an important point. I have said many times in the K&C thread (as this nonsense only goes on their and here) That critique is more important than constant Rah Rah.

Hopefully this can be put to bed and discussion about other issues be continued. I do look forward to discussing future FL products with you all.
Mitch

Mitch there no doubt in my mind you will always be there to "critique'" this or that, and I'm the one that should move on from this thread, I've been on this forum since 2007 and I know there are always gonna be folks that want to argue/critique/make a point/etc...so I'm gonna live and let live, hope you all figure out that grey thing...Sammy

 

[Rob]

I would just take one point from Mitch's post, that some find constant critque as annoying as others find constant ra ra annoying. I think folk have as much right to ra ra a producers product on their own thread as well as crticize. Thats the way its always been and long may it continue.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob/Sammy...

I have no problem with Rah Rah at all but, I find the constant attacks against those who dare to bring up errors and faults historical innacuracies etc that all manufacturers do month after month and year after year to be rather immature. Let the manufacturers do their research properly and with diligence and those who can see these issues would not have to say anything.

If it does not bother one then fine but, to lump anyone who mentions it into the catagories that some do on here is absurd and, IMO rather rude. What some seem to think is that if it looks ok thats all that counts well. some do and some won't accept errors which, are usually, ones that should not occur and, remembering that collectors are not paying peanuts for the product.

Its about give and take as always with life, the good with the bad. I can think of several people on here who know their WWII stuff who comment on errors its the same when we discussed movies and, a fair few who dislike this side of the hobby brought up rafts of historical errors in films such as Battle of the Bulge etc and, recently reach for the sky.
Mitch