football season is here!!!!!!!!!! (1 Viewer)

[tdubel]

Now that the Divisional round is set, my picks are as follows:

NFC

Giants over Eagles (this will be the best game next weekend)

Carolina over Arizona (won't be close)

AFC

Pittsburgh over Chargers (wild card is health of Pitt QB)

Tenn over Ravens (there won't be any gifts here)

Brad,

I think you have the right picks and the right reasons. 2 Wildcards, which Eagles show up and How Big Ben is. If Tenn plays their game, they beat the Ravens much like they beat the Steelers a few weeks ago, if the Ravens D and Ed Reed get them out of their game, all bets are off (Steelers D tried but failed in the end).

Eli Manning will find a way to win, gotta give him credit, he has persevered and really improved.

TD

 

[Combat]

Now that the Divisional round is set, my picks are as follows:

NFC

Giants over Eagles (this will be the best game next weekend)

Carolina over Arizona (won't be close)

AFC

Pittsburgh over Chargers (wild card is health of Pitt QB)

Tenn over Ravens (there won't be any gifts here)

The Eagles have shot their bolt and they are cursed - so Giants.

I'm taking Arizona, Pittsburgh and TN.

 

[Warrior]

Louis,
We could go round and round on this, I'm going to use Peyton as an example and then I am done.

In 2003, the Colts came up here and played the Patriots in the AFCCG; the Patriots were underdogs to the high powered Colts, but Peyton threw four pics (one in the end zone to kill a go ahead drive) and the Colts lost.

In 2004, the Colts set all kinds of scoring records, they came back up here in the divisional playoff round and although their D held the Patriots to 20 points, the Colts lost as Peyton and the offense put up a whopping 3 points. Three points on a defense that was without two of their starters in the secondary I might add.

In 2005, the Patriots got knocked off by Denver, clearing the way for the then #1 seed Colts to march to the Super Bowl, they of the 14-2 record (they flirted with an undefeated season that year); the result was a home playoff loss to the wild card Steelers, with a rookie QB at the helm. Taking nothing away from the Steelers as they played well, but once again Peyton could not get the job done.

In 2006, the Colts hosted the AFCCG at home vs the Patriots and after throwing a God awful pick to Asante Samuel (and good luck next week too by the way; Mr Manning, meet Mr Samuel, he of the clutch INT's in the playoffs, just ask the Vikings today), the Colts were down 21-6 at the half. In the second half, Peyton finally played like a clutch QB and rallied the Colts to a win and a Super Bowl title. During the Colts march to the Super Bowl, Peyton threw 3 TDs and 7 INT's but no matter, the 10,000 pound gorilla was finally off Peytons back.

That was until last year; once again, the Colts marched through the regular season, hosted San Diego and lost at home in the second round of the playoffs.

This year, after a 3-4 start, the Colts ripped off 9 wins in a row to finish 12-4 as the hottest team in the NFL, the pick by most of the talking heads to go to the Super Bowl from the AFC and what happened; they lost to the 8-8 Chargers.

Are all of those losses squarely on the shoulders of Peyton? No, of course not. BUT, clutch QB's do what they have to in order to put their team in a position to win. He does it during the regular season, but in the playoffs, history shows he does not.

You'd take Manning and Marino because of their stats; good for you. I'll take Terry Bradshaw, he of the not one, not two, not three, but FOUR Super Bowl wins, perhaps the greatest clutch QB of all time. Terry was M-O-N-E-Y.

And to your arguement of not having a running game or a D; hate to break it to you, but most pro QB could win with a great running game and/or a great defense, so I don't get your point really.

Again, you see it the way you do, I see it the way I do, so let's just end it there.

 

[jazzeum]

Sort of to Louis' last point about which QB you would want to build a team around, how about changing it so slightly to which QB would you want in a big game. For me, it's an easy choice: Montana; he's the man!

 

[Warrior]

Joe was awesome, but I'll take Terry Bradshaw any day of the week, four Super Bowl titles, two of which came vs the Cowboys seals the deal for me.

Brady is a close second, he of the not one but two game ending Super Bowl drives. Had he not had a bum ankle in the Super Bowl courtesy of San Diego, he'd have four Super Bowl wins as well......................

 

[lancer]

I mean no disrespect to anyone but if you choose anyone but Mr. John Unitas, well, you are simply nuts. -- lancer

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis,
We could go round and round on this, I'm going to use Peyton as an example and then I am done.

In 2003, the Colts came up here and played the Patriots in the AFCCG; the Patriots were underdogs to the high powered Colts, but Peyton threw four pics (one in the end zone to kill a go ahead drive) and the Colts lost.

In 2004, the Colts set all kinds of scoring records, they came back up here in the divisional playoff round and although their D held the Patriots to 20 points, the Colts lost as Peyton and the offense put up a whopping 3 points. Three points on a defense that was without two of their starters in the secondary I might add.

In 2005, the Patriots got knocked off by Denver, clearing the way for the then #1 seed Colts to march to the Super Bowl, they of the 14-2 record (they flirted with an undefeated season that year); the result was a home playoff loss to the wild card Steelers, with a rookie QB at the helm. Taking nothing away from the Steelers as they played well, but once again Peyton could not get the job done.

In 2006, the Colts hosted the AFCCG at home vs the Patriots and after throwing a God awful pick to Asante Samuel (and good luck next week too by the way; Mr Manning, meet Mr Samuel, he of the clutch INT's in the playoffs, just ask the Vikings today), the Colts were down 21-6 at the half. In the second half, Peyton finally played like a clutch QB and rallied the Colts to a win and a Super Bowl title. During the Colts march to the Super Bowl, Peyton threw 3 TDs and 7 INT's but no matter, the 10,000 pound gorilla was finally off Peytons back.

That was until last year; once again, the Colts marched through the regular season, hosted San Diego and lost at home in the second round of the playoffs.

This year, after a 3-4 start, the Colts ripped off 9 wins in a row to finish 12-4 as the hottest team in the NFL, the pick by most of the talking heads to go to the Super Bowl from the AFC and what happened; they lost to the 8-8 Chargers.

Are all of those losses squarely on the shoulders of Peyton? No, of course not. BUT, clutch QB's do what they have to in order to put their team in a position to win. He does it during the regular season, but in the playoffs, history shows he does not.

You'd take Manning and Marino because of their stats; good for you. I'll take Terry Bradshaw, he of the not one, not two, not three, but FOUR Super Bowl wins, perhaps the greatest clutch QB of all time. Terry was M-O-N-E-Y.

And to your arguement of not having a running game or a D; hate to break it to you, but most pro QB could win with a great running game and/or a great defense, so I don't get your point really.

Again, you see it the way you do, I see it the way I do, so let's just end it there.

I guess reasonable men will disagree on this subject. Here is a quote from an article on AOL Sports where two writers have disagreed on the subject, making both of our points:

"Vic Ketchman, the senior editor of Jaguars.com, runs a daily mailbag where he answers questions from readers, and when a reader writes in today to say Manning did his job and is not to blame for Saturday's loss to the Chargers, Ketchman goes ballistic.

Ketchman writes:

What is it with you Peyton Manning apologists? He was nearly intercepted four times and three of those should've been intercepted and returned for touchdowns. The only play he made in the second half was catching the Chargers off guard and lobbing a touchdown pass to an uncovered receiver. In his last four possessions, with the game on the line and the Colts only needing one more score to clinch the win, Manning managed a total of 20 plays for 38 net yards. Hey, that's crunch time, baby. A day after he wins the league MVP, he gags with the game on the line and does his usual one-and-done routine. When are you people gonna get off your knees? The guy is 7-8 in career postseason games and six times he's lost in the first playoff game of that year's postseason; three times in the last four years. Manning did not do his job. His job is to win. His job is to get it done at crunch time.

Some people might think it's inappropriate for such harsh criticism of a player to appear on another team's web site, but I have no problem at all with Ketchman ripping Manning. I've written before that I think highly of Ketchman. He's the best writer currently working for any NFL team web site. It's great to see a team web site that's full of candid assessments of players and teams, and not just your typical public relations B.S.

I have a huge problem, however, with the fact that Ketchman's argument is totally bogus. Peyton Manning is not the reason the Colts lost on Saturday. The two players who made the biggest impact for the Chargers on Saturday were their punter, Mike Scifres, and their running back/return man, Darren Sproles. In other words, the Colts lost because their defense and special teams were out-played by the Chargers' offense and special teams. It's absurd to blame the quarterback for that.

Manning certainly didn't have his best game, but even a mediocre game by Manning's standards is pretty good. To suggest that he choked is silly."

 

[lancer]

I think Peyton Manning is about the best QB currently playing pro ball but he did not do the job against the Chargers when it mattered. The Colts had a first down with about 2:40 left in the game. By the 2:00 minute warning the Chargers had the ball back. If the Colts had picked up just one more first down, they win. Instead they run only 40some seconds off the clock and give the ball back. The Colts and Manning blew it, pure and simple. -- lancer

 

[Louis Badolato]

George,

I have to say, I try to keep an open mind, so I got to thinking about your points concerning quarterbacks in crunch time. I decided to complile a list of every quarterback who has at least 10 NFL postseason decisions. Obviously this list is heavily loaded with modern players, as before 1967, there was only one playoff game a year (the NFL Championship). Johnny Unitas had only 9 decisions, so isn't on this list. Kurt Warner has 8 decisions, and if he wins Sunday, would be on the list as of the end of the NFC championship game in two weeks. Here is the list (to the best of my knowledge) in order of winning percentage with championships in parenthesees:

Postseason Record:

Bart Starr 9-1 (5)

Tom Brady 14-3 (3)

Jim Plunkett 8-2 (2)

Terry Bradshaw 14-5 (4)

Joe Montana 17-7 (4)

Troy Aikman 11-4 (3)

Roger Staubach 11-6 (2)

Phil Simms 6-4 (1)

Steve Young 8-6 (1)

Brett Favre 12-10 (1)

Bob Greise 6-5 (1)

Jim Kelly 9-8 (0)

Peyton Manning 7-8 (1)

Dan Marino 8-10 (0)

Warren Moon 3-7 (0)

I must admit that it would be hard to argue that this list does not include the greatest quarterbacks in the modern era, so George, you may very well be right in your assessment. One question though . . . how is Steve Young a first ballet hall of famer, but Troy Aikman isn't?

 

[Louis Badolato]

I mean no disrespect to anyone but if you choose anyone but Mr. John Unitas, well, you are simply nuts. -- lancer

Sorry, but the stats just don't bear this out by either my standard (overall passing statistics) or George's standard (playoff wins). In passing stats he is way outclassed by several quarterbacks, and in overall playoff performance (wins and championships) he is toasted by Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Tom Brady, and Troy Aikman.

 

[lancer]

Louis - I agree that stats do not back up my statement but a QB's importance is not just a matter of stats. Unitas was the most feared and respected QB of his generation by the ones that matter, his opponents. Unitas was voted the NFL top QB (by his peers) of the first 50 years for a reason, he never gave up and could beat anyone at any time regardless of his supporting cast. Bart Starr is the best QB by title, no argument, but with all things equal, Unitas was voted the best. -- lancer

 

[jazzeum]

I have to agree with Lancer. Johnny U was one of the best ever and the Colts of his era were a hell of a team. Unlike baseball which is a team game played by individuals, the team matters in football and stats just don't tell the whole truth. As an example of the multiplicity of games magnifying stats look at playoff home runs. Mantle was clearly the best at HRs in the World Series, but now with the profusion of playoff games, his numbers have been obscured but in my eyes, he's still the king for World Series HRs until someone actually passes him.

You can have gaudy stats like Manning but not be in the same class as Unitas. No offense to anyone but for me it's guys like Unitas, Starr, Namath and Montana that are the best.

 

[Warrior]

"One question though . . . how is Steve Young a first ballet hall of famer, but Troy Aikman isn't?"

Louis,
Thanks for taking the time to do that, pretty eye opening. Regarding Young vs Aikman; you are preaching to the choir on that one. Young inhereted Joe Montanas team, and his only Super Bowl win was vs an overmatched Chargers team, a blow out.

Aikman, on the other hand, had a rather poor team to work with starting out, took his lumps and ended up dominating the NFC for the 90's, winning three Super Bowls, he was money and I am not sure why he's less regarded than Young.

Again, don't get me wrong, Peyton is a mega talent, but he's going to be remembered as the mega talent who only went to one Super Bowl when in fact, it should have been at least three, maybe four......

 

[Spitfrnd]

I have to say, I try to keep an open mind, so I got to thinking about your points concerning quarterbacks in crunch time. I decided to complile a list of every quarterback who has at least 10 NFL postseason decisions. Obviously this list is heavily loaded with modern players, as before 1967, there was only one playoff game a year (the NFL Championship). Johnny Unitas had only 9 decisions, so isn't on this list. ...

I am afraid that makes it a relatively unrepresentative list, especially if it excludes Unitas. It would be relatively simple to adjust for the pre/post 67 difference in PO games. Without that, the list is unfairly weighted.

I must admit that it would be hard to argue that this list does not include the greatest quarterbacks in the modern era, so George, you may very well be right in your assessment. One question though . . . how is Steve Young a first ballet hall of famer, but Troy Aikman isn't?

I am not sure if your first sentence in this quote means that it does NOT include the greatest modern quarterbacks or the opposite. Certainly to me it does not if it omits Unitas and Namath; really that makes it a triffle irrelevent.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Sorry, but the stats just don't bear this out by either my standard (overall passing statistics) or George's standard (playoff wins). In passing stats he is way outclassed by several quarterbacks, and in overall playoff performance (wins and championships) he is toasted by Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Tom Brady, and Troy Aikman.

With respect Lancer is quite correct. Your use of the stats for this purpose is wrong on several levels, not the least of which is the failure to adjust for the differences in games and playoff games between the periods. I have seen all these guys play and none of them can match Unitas for grit and cluch performance. Bradshaw, Montana and Staubach come the closest.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I really opened a new can of worms with this Unitas thing . . . but guys, I just don't get it. I watched that "greatest game" in color the other day, and frankly, I was not impressed. There were about 7 turnovers, and Unitas loses the game in regulation if the refs don't completely blow the spot on a third down run with 2 minutes left, where Gifford got the first down by at least half a yard, but the marking was screwed up because a Colts defensive lineman in the pile broke his leg.

Also, as far as I could see, Unitas started five NFL Championship Games/Superbowls, won 3 (58, 59, 71) and lost 2 (64 and 69) and was 6-3 overall in the playoffs. That hardly puts him in a dominant postion if you put him on the list above. As far as toughness and grit are concerned, there have been plenty of tough quaterbacks over the years . . . Favre never missed a start in Green Bay, one heckuva tough place to play. Phil Simms and Fran Tarkenton were the two most sacked quarterbacks in NFL history, and they certainly qualify as tough guys.

By the way, I think I left two important names off the above list: Tarkenton and (GASP!) John Elway! I will look up their stats and add them . . .

As far as Namath is concerned, he was 2-1 in the NFL playoffs, with 1 championship (69). How does that qualify him for consideration? Eli Manning has better postseason stats than that . . .

 

[Louis Badolato]

George,

I have to say, I try to keep an open mind, so I got to thinking about your points concerning quarterbacks in crunch time. I decided to complile a list of every quarterback who has at least 10 NFL postseason decisions. Obviously this list is heavily loaded with modern players, as before 1967, there was only one playoff game a year (the NFL Championship). Johnny Unitas had only 9 decisions, so isn't on this list. Kurt Warner has 8 decisions, and if he wins Sunday, would be on the list as of the end of the NFC championship game in two weeks. Here is the list (to the best of my knowledge) in order of winning percentage with championships in parenthesees:

Postseason Record:

Bart Starr 9-1 (5)

Tom Brady 14-3 (3)

Jim Plunkett 8-2 (2)

Terry Bradshaw 14-5 (4)

Joe Montana 17-7 (4)

Troy Aikman 11-4 (3)

Roger Staubach 11-6 (2)

Phil Simms 6-4 (1)

Steve Young 8-6 (1)

Brett Favre 12-10 (1)

Bob Greise 6-5 (1)

Jim Kelly 9-8 (0)

Peyton Manning 7-8 (1)

Dan Marino 8-10 (0)

Warren Moon 3-7 (0)

I must admit that it would be hard to argue that this list does not include the greatest quarterbacks in the modern era, so George, you may very well be right in your assessment. One question though . . . how is Steve Young a first ballet hall of famer, but Troy Aikman isn't?

Corrrected list:

Postseason Record:

Bart Starr 9-1 (5)

Tom Brady 14-3 (3)

Jim Plunkett 8-2 (2)

Terry Bradshaw 14-5 (4)

Joe Montana 17-7 (4)

Troy Aikman 11-4 (3)

John Elway 14-7 (2)

Roger Staubach 11-6 (2)

Phil Simms 6-4 (1)

Steve Young 8-6 (1)

Brett Favre 12-10 (1)

Bob Greise 6-5 (1)

Fran Tarkenton 6-5 (0)

Jim Kelly 9-8 (0)

Peyton Manning 7-8 (1)

Dan Marino 8-10 (0)

Warren Moon 3-7 (0)

I had left Elway and Tarkenton off the original list!

 

[lancer]

Louis - IMO you are leaning too heavily on stats. They just do not tell the whole story, in any sport. Juat as an example, Walter Johnson of the baseball Wash. Senators was on two World Series teams and was only 3-3 in those series yet is widely considered the best pitcher ever. Unitas played in an NFL where running the ball was THE religion yet he opened the game up and owned almost every passing record at his retirement. He played in a time where the play-off system was almost non-exsistant except for the championship. No margin for error, wild-card teams, or .500 division winners. In 1967 the Colts went 11-1-2 and did not make the play-offs. To not acknowledge the winner of the most important football game ever, or as the QB most feared by his contemporaries is to make any list useless. Stats just do not mean everything. Look up Unitas' stats compared to other QB's of his time and place but it still won't show you what he did for or meant to the game. All of today's QB's are nothing but the result of his efforts in the developement of the game as you see it today. -- lancer

 

[jazzeum]

As I mentioned stats aren't everything and if you just go by that, you're not getting the full picture. You had to see them in action and since you can't do that, being the youngster that you are, reading is the next best thing. It's not for nothing that two of the key games in NFL history are the 1958 game or Superbowl III. Regarding Unitas, try The Best Game Ever or Johnny U: The Lifes and Times of Johnny Unitas.

As far as toughness, you can't even compare the 50/60s with later football. They're two different games.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Corrrected list:

Postseason Record:

Bart Starr 9-1 (5)
Tom Brady 14-3 (3)
Jim Plunkett 8-2 (2)
Terry Bradshaw 14-5 (4)
Joe Montana 17-7 (4)
Troy Aikman 11-4 (3)
John Elway 14-7 (2)
Roger Staubach 11-6 (2)
Phil Simms 6-4 (1)
Steve Young 8-6 (1)
Brett Favre 12-10 (1)
Bob Greise 6-5 (1)
Fran Tarkenton 6-5 (0)
Jim Kelly 9-8 (0)
Peyton Manning 7-8 (1)
Dan Marino 8-10 (0)
Warren Moon 3-7 (0)

I had left Elway and Tarkenton off the original list!

Louis, you are statistic happy mate. Your ten game cutoff is completely arbitrary and even then you have not adjusted for the differences in number of playoff games for this purpose. If you did Unitas would make this list handily for whatever that is worth. Frankly judging greatness by this criteria alone, as most players and commentators agree, is just an exercise signifying nothing. For starters, there are many season games that have as much or more significance to the teams ultimate success than PO games alone and certainly this was absolutely the case before the Superbowl. To suggest that Phil Simms, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Steve Young, Bob Greise, Jim Plunkett and yes even Troy are in the same league with Unitas is laughable. Few would question the clutch play of Starr, Staubach, Bradshaw and Farve. Elway, Tarkenton and Marino were all great but they all played very badly in many key games in and out of the playoffs and most would not place with with Unitas and the above players. Brady and Peyton will be hall of famers but I am not ready to put them on the same basis as those other greats at this point. Maybe your problem is that you didn't see enough games played by the 50s and 60s players.

As to your comment about the Greatest Game, that was spoken like a true NY fan. That call has nothing to do with how well Unitas engineered the Colts comebacks in the game. Besides, the officials made many calls back then that would have been overruled with Instant Replay but that was the game. Frankly I am with Madden about Instant Replay, it is simply not real to reconstruct a call with slow motion video, just let them make the calls the best they can and if they miss one, so be it. As to the turnovers, well they used to be a lot easier to get. I would like to see how many turnovers Brady and Peyton would get playing by 1958 rules. Also Brad is right, 50s and 60s toughnesss is a whole different level to what we have today, no matter how big and fast they are.