In Defense of the Red Lancer ! (1 Viewer)

[Deitz]

Have never posted here before but wanted to comment. I think the new cavalry are great. I plan on buying several but the price increases, while modest and probably in line with economic relaties, mean I will be buying less of them than I would I would like to. So which ones do I get? Not sure yet but need the scott's grey officer as well.

Welcome aboard, you picked a great thread to jump in on.

 

[Wraith]

I too would like to know why the old scot greys are selling at $59.00 and the new one is $79.00. Sure these should have gone up also.

I think this was broached before and the reason given for older pieces keeping their older price tags, was due to the fact that they'd already been sculpted, cast, painted and boxed at the time the original price was determined. Therefore, with the exception of storage costs, those figures / pieces aren't affected by rises in material and labour costs.

I guess this is why the pieces aren't around as long before being retired now. Once an initial run is nearing sell out, it may not be financially viable to get another run done, with the increased material and labour costs, whilst trying to keep the original price tag.

 

[Wraith]

Have never posted here before but wanted to comment. I think the new cavalry are great. I plan on buying several but the price increases, while modest and probably in line with economic relaties, mean I will be buying less of them than I would I would like to. So which ones do I get? Not sure yet but need the scott's grey officer as well.

Welcome on board!

I agree, tough choices, but like you, i'm going to have to pick up the Scots Grey officer to complete the set.

Simon

 

[HAWKEYE]

all i can say on this matter is that my trophy dutch lancers cost me 70-75 dollars a figure, so maybe 79 is not that far out of line. except the trophy figures were not made in china but in the uk where things might have cost more.

 

[Steven Chong]

... I too would like to know why the old scot greys are selling at $59.00 and the new one is $79.00. Sure these should have gone up also.

The $20 increase in price reflects a 33% price increase. The original Scot Greys were introduced in June, 2006. Since then, the US Dollar has depreciated against the Chinese Yuan by about 23%. The factories in China are paid in Yuan. As a result, 23% of the price increase or about US$13.57 gives K&C the same amount of Chinese currency it would have made two years ago when exchanged to pay for production costs. The remaining 10% increase in price reflects increased production costs from two years ago. Numerous posts have talked about a price decrease because the cost of materials like foam and metal should be decreasing due to the slowing world economy. However, I do not believe lower material costs have filtered down yet. Unfortunately, even with unemployment increasing in China, labor costs will still be higher than several years ago due to changes in national labor laws requiring factories to give workers contracts, minimum wages and other benefits. In addition, with factories closing, K&C has less flexibility in going to a different factory if it thinks the quoted production cost is too much.

 

[King & Country]

Dear all,

This is Patrick from King & Country.
I've just got a call from Andy, and I know that he keeps browsing the forum in London and Paris!

At first he wants to respond the threads himself, but Steven has already answered them all. Steven understands the economy in China very well and explains them 100% correct.
In the face of the current business environment, King & Country will still commit on providing high quality products in a reasonable price level.

Thanks for your attention.

Best regards,
Patrick

 

[Gazza]

The currency has moved from $1 = 8.02 in June '06 to $1 = 6.88 now; that is not 23%.

Also, I started collecting this year and my first purchase were the Scotts Greys - I love them, always liked the Scotland the Brave picture as a kid - are you telling me they were made 2 years ago !!!

Or that a company commits to a production cost for 2 years, in a market like China which until recently was a hot house economy with inflation in double figures !!!

Sorry but your rationale does not fully explain the increases; nor does it answer the difference between Crimean and Nap Lancers of GBP 10 in a matter of months...

The $20 increase in price reflects a 33% price increase. The original Scot Greys were introduced in June, 2006. Since then, the US Dollar has depreciated against the Chinese Yuan by about 23%. The factories in China are paid in Yuan. As a result, 23% of the price increase or about US$13.57 gives K&C the same amount of Chinese currency it would have made two years ago when exchanged to pay for production costs. The remaining 10% increase in price reflects increased production costs from two years ago. Numerous posts have talked about a price decrease because the cost of materials like foam and metal should be decreasing due to the slowing world economy. However, I do not believe lower material costs have filtered down yet. Unfortunately, even with unemployment increasing in China, labor costs will still be higher than several years ago due to changes in national labor laws requiring factories to give workers contracts, minimum wages and other benefits. In addition, with factories closing, K&C has less flexibility in going to a different factory if it thinks the quoted production cost is too much.

 

[Gazza]

Tony from K&C has responded on the other thread

Off to reforcecast by 2009 budget (not for work, but for KC!!!)

Cheers

The currency has moved from $1 = 8.02 in June '06 to $1 = 6.88 now; that is not 23%.

Also, I started collecting this year and my first purchase were the Scotts Greys - I love them, always liked the Scotland the Brave picture as a kid - are you telling me they were made 2 years ago !!!

Or that a company commits to a production cost for 2 years, in a market like China which until recently was a hot house economy with inflation in double figures !!!

Sorry but your rationale does not fully explain the increases; nor does it answer the difference between Crimean and Nap Lancers of GBP 10 in a matter of months...

 

[Capitolron]

Well - here in America the prices have taken a small climb - I can't comment on the international front - but, if you think you can find a better product with better quality - go for it. I sure haven't seen it in the Toy Soldier World when it comes to MOUNTED FIGURES !

Heck - even the Del Prado stuff looks great with the small K&C touch it has.

If you guys think I am just drinking the cool aide with these RED LANCERS - fine - but the cool aide tastes GREAT !

 

[thebritfarmer]

The currency has moved from $1 = 8.02 in June '06 to $1 = 6.88 now; that is not 23%.

Also, I started collecting this year and my first purchase were the Scotts Greys - I love them, always liked the Scotland the Brave picture as a kid - are you telling me they were made 2 years ago !!!
Or that a company commits to a production cost for 2 years, in a market like China which until recently was a hot house economy with inflation in double figures !!!

Sorry but your rationale does not fully explain the increases; nor does it answer the difference between Crimean and Nap Lancers of GBP 10 in a matter of months...

I was thinking the same Gazza. That would be an awful lot of figures hanging about if they did.

 

[Spitfrnd]

The more I look at all these posts, the more I think the complaints about the price of these Lancers are off the mark. It may be an increase relative to some of the K&C Napoleonic cavalry but it is certainly not one relative to the wider market for good newer mounted figures in this scale. Consider EoIs new Roman releases; the cavalry figures are also $78 and the size is a little smaller than the Lancers. The K&C mounted Saracens and Knights have been $78 to $85 for some time now. I think the new First Legion cavalry will set a new standard and will likely be a must have for me but I expect it will be closer to $100 than $80. Frankly in market context, $78 for these doesn't seem so bad to me. Of course I wish it were less but I can certainly understand why it is not.

Remember when Ron was talking about the relative value of the older releases. Well I think any $65 mounted Napoleonic figure is now in that category.

 

[Alex]

I just bought the chasseurs à cheval... all of them... Top notch !! At 62$ US for some... it's what I consider a steal !!

Alex

PS : My goal is to be the collector with the most Naps to display ... north of the border !!! just joking of course ....

 

[Rutledge]

The $20 increase in price reflects a 33% price increase. The original Scot Greys were introduced in June, 2006. Since then, the US Dollar has depreciated against the Chinese Yuan by about 23%. The factories in China are paid in Yuan. As a result, 23% of the price increase or about US$13.57 gives K&C the same amount of Chinese currency it would have made two years ago when exchanged to pay for production costs. The remaining 10% increase in price reflects increased production costs from two years ago. Numerous posts have talked about a price decrease because the cost of materials like foam and metal should be decreasing due to the slowing world economy. However, I do not believe lower material costs have filtered down yet. Unfortunately, even with unemployment increasing in China, labor costs will still be higher than several years ago due to changes in national labor laws requiring factories to give workers contracts, minimum wages and other benefits. In addition, with factories closing, K&C has less flexibility in going to a different factory if it thinks the quoted production cost is too much.

I do not closely track the relationship between dollar and yuan. However, in general, over the last few months, the dollar has been strengthening against other currencies. Primarily because it remains a relative safe haven during times of uncertainty - such as we are in now. China is considered a developing economy, and thus its currency has been under more pressure.

Regardless, the entire world economy is undergoing a massive shrinking process. The economic pain will be wide spread. This will indisputably lead to reduced sales for demand elastic or highly discretionary items. Toy soldiers may or may not fall into this category, depending on the buyer.

In general, I would expect the prices of most goods and services to decline over the next few years. Things produced in limited/below natural demand numbers may very well escape most of the carnage. "Collectibles" for example. But this is very much on a case by case basis.

I do not have a full understanding of all the pricing dynamics of producing a toy soldier. Thus, I would not venture a strong opion as to their near term direction. But, I do expect there will be less demand in the foreseeable future. If manufacturers adjust their production levels accordingly, that could alleviate a potenital inventory build up and downward pricing pressure. Or, they may choose to "go downscale" in some way, via lowered standards or "cheaper product lines".

At a very minimum, I would expect to see greater price volatility, in both the primary and secondary markets. It will take a while for everything to work its way through the system. My advice would be, not that anyone asked, buy the things you like, if you can afford them!, without regard to price. I would advise frequent re-sellers to be careful. The housing "flippers" market benefitted hugely from the "greater fool" theory - until it didnt.

 

[Combat]

Increasing costs in China are the problem of the manufacturer who decides to do business there. No one forces them to do business in China. It's bad enough that our dollars go to support that government. Add in the loss of almost every manufacturing job in the US and Europe to China and it's hard to have much sympathy for them. This is a pointless discussion though. All businesses will charge as much as they can get away with. Just stop buying if you think it is too costly.

 

[MCKENNA77]

Well about all I can think of on this topic includes the following.

How many forum members have experience/knowlege in:

1. Purchasing the necessary raw materials to make toy soldiers(tin,metal,lead, foam etc)?

2. Manufacturing costs of said raw materials?

3. QC/QA oversight of said manufacturing?

4. Shipping costs of final product?

5. Margin % of final product?


Now, to top it all off, how many have experience or knowledge of doing all of this in China? I'm sure doing business in China is not even close to the same as doing it in the States. I will be the first to admit that I know nothing on any of whats written above. Not to be cruel or a jerk but lets face it, I dont think the forum in general knows anything about this subject.

Take Care

 

[Gazza]

And your point is .....

I know nothing about the internet broadband in my home but that does not stop querying price increases....

Well about all I can think of on this topic includes the following.

How many forum members have experience/knowlege in:

1. Purchasing the necessary raw materials to make toy soldiers(tin,metal,lead, foam etc)?

2. Manufacturing costs of said raw materials?

3. QC/QA oversight of said manufacturing?

4. Shipping costs of final product?

5. Margin % of final product?


Now, to top it all off, how many have experience or knowledge of doing all of this in China? I'm sure doing business in China is not even close to the same as doing it in the States. I will be the first to admit that I know nothing on any of whats written above. Not to be cruel or a jerk but lets face it, I dont think the forum in general knows anything about this subject.

Take Care

 

[Louis Badolato]

Gazza,

The reason that many manufacturers stopped producing their merchandise in Great Britain and the United States, and moved their factories to countries like China, India and Mexico, is that it was far less expensive to produce their products in these locales, as the workers did not have to be paid a living wage.

However, as each locale becomes a major manufacturing center, the workers demand a better quality of life, driving the cost of production up, and making the manufacturers shop for another third-world country where the population is willing to work for pennies a day.

The United States did it to Great Britain in the 19th Century, then Japan did it to the United States in the 1960's and 1970's, then China and India did it to Japan, and now Chinese workers are pricing themselves out of the market.

As a result, the cost of production of everything produced in China (now referrred to as "the world's factory") has been rising. Add to this the expense of everything petroleum related, and you have runaway inflation.

It just so happens that our hobby used to center in Great Britain, but over the last 30 years, the vast majority of toy soldier production moved to China. Accordingly, our hobby is being priced out of the average person's budget by runaway inflation.

And it is not only China - look what happened to Honour Bound's vehicle production in Argentina.

And then factor in the international currency mess - the dollar is getting pounded by the Pound and the Euro, then the Pound and the Euro are in the tank, god only knows what is going to happen next. I am no expert, but it seems to me that with the world wide recession and runaway inflation, we, as collectors are going to be expected to absorb substantial price hikes from virtually all of the manufacturers involved in this hobby.

I have taken the position that the price hikes are unavoidable, but the money I have available for collecting is limited, so I am simply going to be very selective in my collecting. I expect that a lot of collectors are going to be limiting their purchases in these financial conditions, and I am afraid any manufacturer that is not careful in its expenditures might find itself out of business.

 

[JPB]

Gazza,

The reason that many manufacturers stopped producing their merchandise in Great Britain and the United States, and moved their factories to countries like China, India and Mexico, is that it was far less expensive to produce their products in these locales, as the workers did not have to be paid a living wage.

However, as each locale becomes a major manufacturing center, the workers demand a better quality of life, driving the cost of production up, and making the manufacturers shop for another third-world country where the population is willing to work for pennies a day.

The United States did it to Great Britain in the 19th Century, then Japan did it to the United States in the 1960's and 1970's, then China and India did it to Japan, and now Chinese workers are pricing themselves out of the market.

As a result, the cost of production of everything produced in China (now referrred to as "the world's factory") has been rising. Add to this the expense of everything petroleum related, and you have runaway inflation.

It just so happens that our hobby used to center in Great Britain, but over the last 30 years, the vast majority of toy soldier production moved to China. Accordingly, our hobby is being priced out of the average person's budget by runaway inflation.

And it is not only China - look what happened to Honour Bound's vehicle production in Argentina.

And then factor in the international currency mess - the dollar is getting pounded by the Pound and the Euro, then the Pound and the Euro are in the tank, god only knows what is going to happen next. I am no expert, but it seems to me that with the world wide recession and runaway inflation, we, as collectors are going to be expected to absorb substantial price hikes from virtually all of the manufacturers involved in this hobby.

I have taken the position that the price hikes are unavoidable, but the money I have available for collecting is limited, so I am simply going to be very selective in my collecting. I expect that a lot of collectors are going to be limiting their purchases in these financial conditions, and I am afraid any manufacturer that is not careful in its expenditures might find itself out of business.

I believe we will see smaller/less detailed vehicles and more and more pre-subscribe/limited editions.

This will allow the produces to predict the sales and know when the money comes in. No stock hassle etc.

Ok, single soldiers will be released as usual.

JPB

 

[Rutledge]

Add to this the expense of everything petroleum related, and you have runaway inflation.


And then factor in the international currency mess - the dollar is getting pounded by the Pound and the Euro, then the Pound and the Euro are in the tank, god only knows what is going to happen next. I am no expert, but it seems to me that with the world wide recession and runaway inflation, we, as collectors are going to be expected to absorb substantial price hikes from virtually all of the manufacturers involved in this hobby.QUOTE]

INflation is currently off the table. We are in a DEflationary environment. Everything from housing, to oil, to metals, to fine art, to stocks, are seeing prices FALL, in the slowing worldwide economy. Thus why the Fed has the fed funds rate at 1% - they have abandoned concerns of inflation in order to battle DEflation, a more inisdious force. While Govt policies are expected to eventually bring about inflation, currently the situation is deflationary.

The dollar has been STRENGTHENING against the pound and Euro. Pound is now ~1.47 per US$, down from almost $2, while the Euro is $1.30, vs earlier high of ~1.60.

 

[thebritfarmer]

And your point is .....

I know nothing about the internet broadband in my home but that does not stop querying price increases....

So you are the one who keeps calling then LOL