Is it the end of polystone? (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

Much has been said on the production methods of companies polystone being the seemingly chosen method for K&C but, I am wondering if we are seeing a shift.

Much has been said about the heft or weight of K&C sets and on a number of conversations I have heard it said that it is a good selling point in difficult times and good. A person holds a piece from K&C and has allegedly commented it feels heavy. I don't equate weight with quality myself so, weight is not an issue but, I know a number of K&C collectors have commented they like this feature and in discussions about FL have said their products are too light weight and that is something they do not like.

Bringing me to my point I have seen a change in recent models from K&C in particular the Panzer IV was very lightweight indeed had a very plastic feel to it when one tapped it. From my modelling days I remember placing weights inside the hull to make it feel heavier and more stable on dio's. The Panzer IV is just like that it is back heavy and feels when held as if it is weighted at the rear and no where else!! When one taps this model it feels hollow from around the third rear road wheel.

I have also seen the new 25 ILB gun and actually thought the box was empty when I held it and it seems to me in my experience with kits that this whole set is plastic. It is very light weight indeed with only the figure being some form of alloy. On most guns we at least had a metal barrel but, not so in this release.

I wonder what K&C collectors on here feel and what they thought of these releases in terms of what has been raised. I know it has been a shock to some who have collected with this weight is a bonus approach and, wonder how they now accept that it does look like these releases are becoming similar in weight and possibly materials like FL.

Does this almost 'diet K&C' make one feel different to the products? For me I was never sold on the idea that weight was any factor to use to encourage someone to buy a item.

If this is a change in manufacturing and with rising prices will this affect the choices of the core K&C raised on polystone and weight?
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

First off "This is the end of ....." is my saying. ^&grin

But this is confusing. Define plastic. When you say plastic I think of 1:32 scale 21st Century or Forces of Valor.

What is the difference between plastic, plastic resin , and resin?
Am I correct that FL AFVs are resin with small pats in metal. The JJD AFVs and aircraft are resin.

If resin and metal give more detail than polystone, isn't that an improvement? Or are they more fragile? And what about relative cost?

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

In response to Terry's question about composition of the JJD Spanish Civil War tanks, I managed to find the original announcement and it indicated in part, as follows: "MATERIALS Mixed Media, includes Polystone, resin and metal."

When I first received the tank, I was surprised by its lightness but this was more than offset by the fantastic detail. In addition, these are not toys and once I put it on the shelf, I didn't really think about the weight question. I would think the answer would be the same here. My view is that heft shouldn't be a determinant.

Brad

 

[graycap]

As long as the material used is fairly robust, not likely to deteriorate under normal domestic conditions and can show a fair amount of detail I don' really mind what they are made of. Keeping weight down has obvious benefits in shipping and transportation. I hope manufacturers do experiment with new materials. Who knows in few years time K & C and other firms may be producing their vehicles via 3D printers!

 

[Guy]

As long as the material used is fairly robust, not likely to deteriorate under normal domestic conditions and can show a fair amount of detail I don' really mind what they are made of. Keeping weight down has obvious benefits in shipping and transportation. I hope manufacturers do experiment with new materials. Who knows in few years time K & C and other firms may be producing their vehicles via 3D printers!

Give me light weight any day . I much prefer lighter AFVs over heavy ones. Less risky to display them on glass shelves. Makes dios much lighter and in new material whether it be resin or plastic or metal or a combination of the three, the detail will be much greater!!!!!
guy:smile2:

 

[uksubs]

Give me light weight any day . I much prefer lighter AFVs over heavy ones. Less risky to display them on glass shelves. Makes dios much lighter and in new material whether it be resin or plastic or metal or a combination of the three, the detail will be much greater!!!!!
guy:smile2:

Think your spot on Guy

 

[Alex]

I don't like resin at all for afvs or figures..
yes it's light, it captures details like nothing else
but it is a pain to sand and airborne articles are no good at all for your lungs
and it can expand and contract with environement changes..
so will it last decades ? i doubt it
for me, it s metal and only metal.

cheers
alex

 

[tdubel]

My 2 cents, I really dont care.

What I will say is that my preference, has and always will be, metal. I like all metal, which is why, give me a Toy Army Workshop Whippet or a Tommy Atkins Lorry or a Trophy Gun, etc. I like metal. That said, if you want anything other than Sudan, WW1, etc., you have to develop a like for mixed media. At this point, I evaluate each model regardless of manufacturer and go from there.

I don't really love the lightweight stuff, but some of it is very high quality.

TD

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Manufacturing is a little like life itself…constantly evolving. Back in the late 1990’s when K&C pioneered the use of polystone (a mix of marble dust and resin) to help make all kinds of fighting vehicles and accessories some of the first few tanks and trucks were indeed 100% polystone.

Over the years as knowledge, skill and experience grew so too did the manufacturing process develop…Polystone was still utilized but so too was white metal castings of specific items like main guns and machine guns as well as smaller more detailed items on a model.

Take our new Panzer IV as Mitch has made much of its perceived (by him) lightness. The main hull and turret is indeed polystone as are the tracks and wheels. However all the guns are white metal as are a number of smaller detailed parts. The turret shield itself is made out of Zinc. Therefore I think we, or anybody else for that matter, could call it “mixed media”.

To describe it as “very lightweight ” and having a “very plastic feel to it ” is both wrong and misleading but, of course, Mitch is free to express his opinion as I am to express mine.

Best wishes and happy collecting.

Andy C.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Hi Guys,

Manufacturing is a little like life itself…constantly evolving. Back in the late 1990’s when K&C pioneered the use of polystone (a mix of marble dust and resin) to help make all kinds of fighting vehicles and accessories some of the first few tanks and trucks were indeed 100% polystone.

Over the years as knowledge, skill and experience grew so too did the manufacturing process develop…Polystone was still utilized but so too was white metal castings of specific items like main guns and machine guns as well as smaller more detailed items on a model.

Take our new Panzer IV as Mitch has made much of its perceived (by him) lightness. The main hull and turret is indeed polystone as are the tracks and wheels. However all the guns are white metal as are a number of smaller detailed parts. The turret shield itself is made out of Zinc. Therefore I think we, or anybody else for that matter, could call it “mixed media”.

To describe it as “very lightweight ” and having a “very plastic feel to it ” is both wrong and misleading but, of course, Mitch is free to express his opinion as I am to express mine.

Best wishes and happy collecting.

Andy C.

And the show rolls on & on.

 

[Mr Scott]

Hi Guys,

Manufacturing is a little like life itself…constantly evolving. Back in the late 1990’s when K&C pioneered the use of polystone (a mix of marble dust and resin) to help make all kinds of fighting vehicles and accessories some of the first few tanks and trucks were indeed 100% polystone.

Over the years as knowledge, skill and experience grew so too did the manufacturing process develop…Polystone was still utilized but so too was white metal castings of specific items like main guns and machine guns as well as smaller more detailed items on a model.

Take our new Panzer IV as Mitch has made much of its perceived (by him) lightness. The main hull and turret is indeed polystone as are the tracks and wheels. However all the guns are white metal as are a number of smaller detailed parts. The turret shield itself is made out of Zinc. Therefore I think we, or anybody else for that matter, could call it “mixed media”.

To describe it as “very lightweight ” and having a “very plastic feel to it ” is both wrong and misleading but, of course, Mitch is free to express his opinion as I am to express mine.

Best wishes and happy collecting.

Andy C.

Andy

I have actually seen a picture of a group of warriors standing around a camp fire in Mesopotamia around 800 BC lamenting the end of the Bronze Age, from the expressions on their face they looked quite worried.

Cheers

Scott

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Andy

I have actually seen a picture of a group of warriors standing around a camp fire in Mesopotamia around 800 BC lamenting the end of the Bronze Age, from the expressions on their face they looked quite worried.

Cheers

Scott

From cave paintings in ancient times to today's computer graphics; from camp fires in Mesopotamia to solar powered electronics; from worry to the certainty that something new is always around the corner - yep, that's history. Ain't progress wonderful? Glad we don't get TS in bronze or we'd all suffer from hernia

 

[Mitch]

I certainly don't think I was being misleading in any way whatsoever. I would ask any collectors who have bought the Panzer IV or have friends with it (who will let them) to pick it up and feel the weight and give it a tap. Hollow sound is hollow sound and rear heavy means its filled with a weight to give it extra heft. I was quite surprised at the feel of this AFV and how it felt.

Agreed the shurtzen is light alloy as I have it sanded down for a repaint so, with a lot of the work I have done on hundreds of your sets I know what parts are metal and what are moulded resin/polystone etc etc as the dremmel sorts the wheat from the chaff as they say so does the debonder.

I notice though you did not mention the 25 ILB gun which is interesting. As I said weight is nothing at all in terms of detail but, much has been made by K&C collectors about the weight and feel of items and that seems to now be a thing of the past. I just mused about the change and how a facet of what makes K&C popular and has been used as a detriment to other makers products is now in your own back yard so, to speak

Thanks for the reply
Mitch

Hi Guys,

Manufacturing is a little like life itself…constantly evolving. Back in the late 1990’s when K&C pioneered the use of polystone (a mix of marble dust and resin) to help make all kinds of fighting vehicles and accessories some of the first few tanks and trucks were indeed 100% polystone.

Over the years as knowledge, skill and experience grew so too did the manufacturing process develop…Polystone was still utilized but so too was white metal castings of specific items like main guns and machine guns as well as smaller more detailed items on a model.

Take our new Panzer IV as Mitch has made much of its perceived (by him) lightness. The main hull and turret is indeed polystone as are the tracks and wheels. However all the guns are white metal as are a number of smaller detailed parts. The turret shield itself is made out of Zinc. Therefore I think we, or anybody else for that matter, could call it “mixed media”.

To describe it as “very lightweight ” and having a “very plastic feel to it ” is both wrong and misleading but, of course, Mitch is free to express his opinion as I am to express mine.

Best wishes and happy collecting.

Andy C.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Constructive criticism aside Mitch, it's fairly obvious that you are repeatedly taking pot shots at K&C and their products.

Oh yes you are entitled to your opinion as is Andy, but the underlining fact is you're having a go, which you're poorly disguising.

I'm all for discussing faults etc, but leave the other stuff at home mate, it's not needed and not particularly helpful.

That's the last I'll be saying on the matter, certainly on this thread anyway.

Thanking you.

 

[Mitch]

Not at all if you wish to think its pot shots at K&C then you are wrong. The change in construction is something I would have thought all collectors would have been interested in and, as stated the ''weight'' issue has been used as a positive for K&C for many years from many collectors and dealers on here saying that it is an extra bonus when trying to sell these items.

Now, whether I agree with that is not the point this thread and topic was something that a few of us have been discussing lately either seen by themselves or been told of from others and, as is clear from a lot of posts on here the weight issue was used as a beating stick for other companies products.

I was and still am very interested in how K&C collectors will accept or not the change in weight of the items and if it will or will not affect their choices when K&C was with the exception of Figarti the maker of rather heavy products.

I would have thought this would have interested a number of collectors and had a number of interesting posts which, some have been whilst others simply have not been.

Sadly, this whole pot shots at K&C mentality and the entrenched stance negates a decent chat about the products and changes in them. The products mentioned were two of a few I could have stated I did not say they were bad or anything similar I happen to like both and have stated that when they were released. This post was clearly about weight and manufacturing changes
Mitch

Constructive criticism aside Mitch, it's fairly obvious that you are repeatedly taking pot shots at K&C and their products.

Oh yes you are entitled to your opinion as is Andy, but the underlining fact is you're having a go, which you're poorly disguising.

I'm all for discussing faults etc, but leave the other stuff at home mate, it's not needed and not particularly helpful.

That's the last I'll be saying on the matter, certainly on this thread anyway.

Thanking you.

 

[uksubs]

Constructive criticism aside Mitch, it's fairly obvious that you are repeatedly taking pot shots at K&C and their products.

Oh yes you are entitled to your opinion as is Andy, but the underlining fact is you're having a go, which you're poorly disguising.

I'm all for discussing faults etc, but leave the other stuff at home mate, it's not needed and not particularly helpful.

That's the last I'll be saying on the matter, certainly on this thread anyway.

Thanking you.

What wrong with a buying customer given his opinuim on a item ? I think your find this month Mitch posted photos of the KC commando and how good they are .I think it you who the one stirring the pot

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I asked the question What is the difference between plastic, plastic resin , Polystone, and resin?

Only Jazzeum responded noting that the JJD tanks are mixed media consisting of polystone, resin and metal. So I investigated and surprise, surprise. All plastics, plastic resins , Polystones, and resins are resins with different compositions and characteristics like hardness, softness, flexibility, rigidness, likelihood of cracking, likelihood of deteriorating over time, density and weight. And more importantly to making AFV models, ease of sculpting, ease of moulding, ease of sanding, and ability to hold paint. It was also interesting that the differences between resins are bigger within classes of resins than between classes of resins. So polystone and what is considered to be "resin" are a lot closer in characteristics and suitability for use in model AFVs than we have been lead to believe. The whole polystone vs resin vs plastic is nonsense. Polystone comes in a wide range of composition and characteristics. So do "Resins" And so do plastics. Model makes don't just choose any polystone, plastic or resin - they choose within a narrow range of characteristics suitable for model making.

So K&C could make cleaner, more detailed tracks with a reduced risk of mould and shipping breakage. But at the cost of some other features of that particular polystone composition and cost of materials.

I don't claim any expertise in the composition and moulding of resins but it seems to me there are a lot of misconceptions about the differences within the family of resins.

Terry

 

[uksubs]

I asked the question What is the difference between plastic, plastic resin , Polystone, and resin?

Only Jazzeum responded noting that the JJD tanks are mixed media consisting of polystone, resin and metal. So I investigated and surprise, surprise. All plastics, plastic resins , Polystones, and resins are resins with different compositions and characteristics like hardness, softness, flexibility, rigidness, likelihood of cracking, likelihood of deteriorating over time, density and weight. And more importantly to making AFV models, ease of sculpting, ease of moulding, ease of sanding, and ability to hold paint. It was also interesting that the differences between resins are bigger within classes of resins than between classes of resins. So polystone and what is considered to be "resin" are a lot closer in characteristics and suitability for use in model AFVs than we have been lead to believe. The whole polystone vs resin vs plastic is nonsense. Polystone comes in a wide range of composition and characteristics. So do "Resins" And so do plastics. Model makes don't just choose any polystone, plastic or resin - they choose within a narrow range of characteristics suitable for model making.

So K&C could make cleaner, more detailed tracks with a reduced risk of mould and shipping breakage. But at the cost of some other features of that particular polystone composition and cost of materials.

I don't claim any expertise in the composition and moulding of resins but it seems to me there are a lot of misconceptions about the differences within the family of resins.

Terry

Thank for a interesting post Terry :salute::

 

[Phantom Warrior]

There's more to it. Here is an excerpt from an article on plastics including PVC, ABS, etc., natural resins, synthetic resins and polystone.

Resin is a compound consisting of mostly organic ingredients found in plants and trees. What we commonly see in figurines is actually a synthetic resin. This synthetic resin has similar properties to ABS, but it is more brittle. It’s more akin to liquid solidified, almost like soap. The process is similar to epoxy – combining two liquids together to cause a chemical reaction of solidifying. When casting resin, this is essentially what happens. A finished resin cast has the same smoothness as PVC, but has trouble sticking paint. It has to be primed (Are you reading this Figarti?). The advantage of resin kits is that it’s soft and easy to sand and cut, while sturdy enough to hold up weight. High quality resin is typically very dense and can withstand quite a bit of pounding, but will shatter under significant pressure, while ABS would simply bounce back. But because of ABS’s toughness, it’s easier to sand resin.

Polystone (Resin compound)
Polystone is a similar property to resin, but is even more brittle! It’s higher quality than resin because of the base materials it uses – mainly it uses minerals such as aluminum hydrate, as opposed to synthetic materials. It’s typically made for mass-produced statues, such as the Final Fantasy 7 polystone cold-casts. From what I can tell, it seems that polystone is the least restrictive. The edges and cuts seem the cleanest, and a fair amount of detail can be put into it. This may be why polystone is the material of choice for mass produced resin cast figures. (They are talking about large 1/6 and larger figures)

Terry

 

[Alex]

My only answer is this : M E T A L

people should ask themselves one question and only one :
why are manufacturers producing AFVs in resin, plastic, polystone, etc instead of metal ?
because metal cost more and is much heavier so higher shipping fees.

me i want the best and will always buy metal kits from now on. something i know will withstand the fall of time.

cheers

alex

There's more to it. Here is an excerpt from an article on plastics including PVC, ABS, etc., natural resins, synthetic resins and polystone.

Resin is a compound consisting of mostly organic ingredients found in plants and trees. What we commonly see in figurines is actually a synthetic resin. This synthetic resin has similar properties to ABS, but it is more brittle. It’s more akin to liquid solidified, almost like soap. The process is similar to epoxy – combining two liquids together to cause a chemical reaction of solidifying. When casting resin, this is essentially what happens. A finished resin cast has the same smoothness as PVC, but has trouble sticking paint. It has to be primed (Are you reading this Figarti?). The advantage of resin kits is that it’s soft and easy to sand and cut, while sturdy enough to hold up weight. High quality resin is typically very dense and can withstand quite a bit of pounding, but will shatter under significant pressure, while ABS would simply bounce back. But because of ABS’s toughness, it’s easier to sand resin.

Polystone (Resin compound)
Polystone is a similar property to resin, but is even more brittle! It’s higher quality than resin because of the base materials it uses – mainly it uses minerals such as aluminum hydrate, as opposed to synthetic materials. It’s typically made for mass-produced statues, such as the Final Fantasy 7 polystone cold-casts. From what I can tell, it seems that polystone is the least restrictive. The edges and cuts seem the cleanest, and a fair amount of detail can be put into it. This may be why polystone is the material of choice for mass produced resin cast figures. (They are talking about large 1/6 and larger figures)

Terry