Is our Hobby Changing? (1 Viewer)

[Empire MM]

You created some great discussion with this post.

Being born when Truman was still President, and receiving 'toy' soldiers (both metal and plastic) as a child, I have seen many changes in the field...and as most commenters have stated...for the good.

Cannot argue with aging of 'interest' base.

When I read your post for the first time, my thoughts were taken towards society at large...look at vehicle manufacturing, we have gone from a multitude of different distinct models every year to sort of a 'one size fits all' indistinguishable from each other look...probably your "low hanging fruit" approach.

"Risk versus Reward"...Economics both rewards and punishes those who take risks.

Thank you for stimulating the discussion.

Hi Ivanhoe,

Thank you! it was my intention. I love dialogue.

Most impressed someone reads my posts, let alone reads them twice! {sm4}{sm4} Low hanging fruit = easier sales maybe?

Risk v Rewards..... Jeez, how many times do I wrestle with this during a working day (and sleep disturbed night). Kind of ****ed if you do, ****ed if you dont. Hopefully we all please most of the people most of the time.

Thanks for the final comment too. Stimulating discussion, a compliment indeed, thanks. This is such a great hobby that I just wish we could all chat more and be a tad risque from time to time, just to get these responses. I must admit, when I posted it, I did pop on my flak jacket and run to the bunker but you, the fall out has not been that bad really. Most folk got where I was coming from (I think??{sm2}{sm2}).

Malcolm.:salute::

 

[Terp152]

Hi Chris,

Love your comments and observations, very interesting to my (as a collector) but I also suspect this to helpful to all of us manufacturers too.

I agree, there are some great innovations, as the ones you have mentioned. My comment was, if you like, aimed at some smaller manufacturers, me included possibly if I am honest. The constant same old is safe and I know I have released some but, they do sell as basic poses (with slight changes) are always welcome in my displays / dios too.

My only concern (dare I even say this ......) is with the scale question {sm3} Just supposing, one manufacturer changed his entire range sizes to match those of another, would the benefit in cross selling outweigh the losses to both companies from people who either: stopped collecting the range due to the variance from previous figures and / or changed allegiances to save money??

Maybe I am playing devils advocate here but...... interesting question.....

Overall though, I have to say, I love this hobby and the collectors (mostly {sm4}{sm4} ).

Malcolm. :salute::

Thanks Malcolm, and I echo the comments of appreciation to you for initiating an interesting discussion topic. An intriguing question as to whether a change in scale would result in net profit or loss.

Now, if only Empire MM would only release some charging Confederate soldier figs.....:wink2:

Regards
Chris

 

[Empire MM]

Thanks Malcolm, and I echo the comments of appreciation to you for initiating an interesting discussion topic. An intriguing question as to whether a change in scale would result in net profit or loss.

Now, if only Empire MM would only release some charging Confederate soldier figs.....:wink2:

Regards
Chris

Thanks Chris.

The big question though is, in what scale. {sm4}{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

 

[Hazebrouck]

Thanks Chris.

The big question though is, in what scale. {sm4}{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

Just throwing this into the ring Malcolm. I notice in the war-games and modelling worlds that 1/48 and 1/56 seem to be increasingly popular for figures and armour, with the figures becoming far less like the traditional wargames figure and more like a model soldier. 1/48 armour kits seem to lose little in detail when compared to 1/35 and you have more room for a diorama.

I guess when you come over to this forum though the collectors like the larger K&C like figures as the move to that scale was to allow more detail than the traditional 54mm. Could you produce figures in 1/48 or 1/56 that match the larger figures?

Scott

 

[arnhem44mad]

I feel some companies who used to be the average working man's best friend in terms of prices and great products are now over expensive and it feels as if they are trying to get out of the league they are in and into a different 'elite' league of brands by attemping to cater for all collectors.

While other companies maintain 'cheaper' costs yet still produce absolutely stunning work and cater for lots.

Scott

 

[marco55]

I collect one range of large scale figures and some model kits but mostly collect smaller 1/48 and 1/56 figures now.I only buy ones that are proportioned correctly.The small figure sculpting has come a long way.Most of what I buy is between $1-$2 to buy and $10-$15 to get painted.In the pic below the 2 sets cost about $30 plus shipping from Europe and will cost about $90 to get painted.I figure the total between $18-$19 per figure.That may seem a lot for a 1/56 figure but if I could paint it would be a lot cheaper.Plus they are unique sets and can be set up for dioramas using a lot less space.
Mark

 

[Empire MM]

I collect one range of large scale figures and some model kits but mostly collect smaller 1/48 and 1/56 figures now.I only buy ones that are proportioned correctly.The small figure sculpting has come a long way.Most of what I buy is between $1-$2 to buy and $10-$15 to get painted.In the pic below the 2 sets cost about $30 plus shipping from Europe and will cost about $90 to get painted.I figure the total between $18-$19 per figure.That may seem a lot for a 1/56 figure but if I could paint it would be a lot cheaper.Plus they are unique sets and can be set up for dioramas using a lot less space.
Mark

Hi Mark,

Both you and Scott raise another interesting question here. My question was more tongue in cheek (or foot in mouth maybe? ) But your comments really make me think. If it were possible to do this, would costs come down somewhat, could this then enable these to appeal to younger people, to modelists for making dios, enabled folk on limited budgets (and space maybe) to be a part of our hobby.?

Very thought provoking.........

Maybe I am being totally wacko here but, I wonder if a symposium / Q&A session over the Chicago weekend between collectors in an audience and a panel of manufacturers, chaired by a unbiased chair person would be interesting and create more of an alliance between everyone ?

Flak jacket back on now {sm4}{sm4}

Malcolm.

 

[jazzeum]

I don't think manufacturers would have time for a discussion in Chicago as if they're not showing off product in their rooms, they're in meetings, making contacts, networking, etc. For collectors it's fun, but for them it's work.

 

[marco55]

I wonder how TCS did with making some of their WWII ranges smaller.Haven't heard much.Some wargamers for the most part didn't seem to be interested as they would rather buy them cheaper and paint them themselves.
Mark

 

[Empire MM]

I don't think manufacturers would have time for a discussion in Chicago as if they're not showing off product in their rooms, they're in meetings, making contacts, networking, etc. For collectors it's fun, but for them it's work.

Well, just my opinion but....

I made time to do plenty of networking as well as being on hand with Treefrog each day.... I made time for dinner and... Matt found time for being the guest of honour at the Treefrog dinner.

As I would have been told in the past. If you do not have time and cannot make time, then you simply do not manage your time..{sm4}

Would a forum type meeting not be fun and also classed as work??

Like I say, just an idea and, for a show that runs over so many days, time should not be any excuse in my opinion.

I did say I was maybe being wacko {sm4}

 

[jazzeum]

With all due respect, there is a difference between Empire and companies like Britains or K & C.

If you think you can pull off such a meeting, I'd say go for it but I wouldn't expect it to happen.

 

[Empire MM]

With all due respect, there is a difference between Empire and companies like Britains or K & C.

If you think you can pull off such a meeting, I'd say go for it but I wouldn't expect it to happen.

Hi Brad,

I am aware of that, having worked with Britain's for a time of course. I would also make a point that, having worked Internationally (including in the US) for a very large business with accounts with the biggest names globally to care for, we still found time to be actively involved in a variety of forums and events. Our hobby is small and I would have to ask, do even the biggest players have to have that many meetings during the Chicago show and even if they do, you mean to tell me a little time management could not make something like this happen? Come on ^&grin^&grin

I was not suggesting I personally arranged a forum, it was more a question to anyone involved in the hobby with an opinion as to if they would like to see it and if they felt it would benefit the hobby.

Oh, by the way, Empire keeps me VER:salute::Y busy and the next Chicago show we see me even busier. I will still make time for people and collectors though

 

[Johnboy]

Good points on time management. While at the Dec. London show I had a long chat with Malcolm, and ditto with Ken of Britains and also Iwan of Centurion. All busy guy's but with different scales of business. As purely a collector in a limited market place , this is much appreciated. As a relatively small industry, I think it is imperative to talk to customers . Like a lot of people at the show, I spent way more cash than I had budgeted for........some of this was due to excellent "customer services" by retailers on the day. With "Bricks & Mortar " establishments in decline, this is one of the few functions where I can be talked out of my "hard earned" I think NOT connecting with potential customers in any possible way has got to be a bad idea. God knows how much I've spent over the past 50 years as a collector. Now that I'm retired I have less disposable income but I tend to go for less but higher value figures.........I am there to be convinced!
Johnboy.

 

[katana]

The hobby is changing and prices have doubled for quality figures over the last 10 years. A new paradigm was initiated by First Legion where quality was high and scale was consistant between figures, vehicles and artillery. The same parameters of accuracy found in 1/35 scale plastic models; brought to 1/30 scale pewter and polystone. First Legion also recognized that quality is expensive and priced accordingly; aiming at the Toy Soldier market segment looking for the best detail and realism. IMHO this has proven sucessful for First Legion and has resulted in a schism in the Toy Soldier market between realism and nostalgia!

 

[Charlie Brown]

Is it any longer a hobby? Or increasingly a preserve for the more affluent. Rising prices must be accounted for in a huge part by the lower production runs. Wasn't so long ago that vehicles such as tanks were produced in limited edition runs of 1,200. Was this in part a mirage? Bankers investing by buying multiple sets purely for speculation. Did this hide the true state of the hobby we all love and enjoy. In reality the decline had set in some time ago as the majority of us are now let's say mature in age. Like supermarkets having too much store space. Did soldier manufacturers themselves misjudge the true state of the market.

While quality is high. Is the price too high. I can find better value wandering round an antique shop these days for real military items. Than the suggested retail prices of some items these days.

 

[Empire MM]

Good points on time management. While at the Dec. London show I had a long chat with Malcolm, and ditto with Ken of Britains and also Iwan of Centurion. All busy guy's but with different scales of business. As purely a collector in a limited market place , this is much appreciated. As a relatively small industry, I think it is imperative to talk to customers . Like a lot of people at the show, I spent way more cash than I had budgeted for........some of this was due to excellent "customer services" by retailers on the day. With "Bricks & Mortar " establishments in decline, this is one of the few functions where I can be talked out of my "hard earned" I think NOT connecting with potential customers in any possible way has got to be a bad idea. God knows how much I've spent over the past 50 years as a collector. Now that I'm retired I have less disposable income but I tend to go for less but higher value figures.........I am there to be convinced!
Johnboy.

Hi John,

This is music to my ears and kind of echoes my thoughts. Without people like you, we (the manufacturers) have no living, it is quite a simple equation.

This is the other thing this forum provides. A sounding board and conversational environment to help keep our hobby thriving. A great legacy of our much missed Shannon.

Malcolm. :salute::

 

[Warrior]

...................many of us started in the hobby as youngsters. Personally, I started off with 6 Britains Super Deetail figures from the 8th Army/Desert Rats lineup. We grew up in an age with plastic Navarone mountains, SGT. Rock comic books, and heroic WWII movies on the late show. Most of us discovered girls, rock and roll, cars, and beer...often not in that order... and our collections of plastic soldiers were left in the closet at mom and dad's house. We've come back to the hobby as adults... with more money in our pockets to buy collectible figures. The question we need to look at is how are we building the base of interest in young kids? Are Plastics out there that can stimulate the imagination of a future collector... a kid that will return to the hobby when he figures out that he's not going to shag Katy Perry or be the next Jimi Hendrix, and he or she has an appreciation for the sculpting and painting? Can the hobby compete with sci-fi and high tech toys?

A lot of very good points here. To me, it comes down to a generational thing/the way business is conducted at the present time.


Like most of you, as a kid, myself and most of the other kids I knew had toy soldiers and also toys. We saw them on TV, we saw them in all the mom and pop stores, the small department store chains and the hobby shops that were everywhere. They were under every christmas tree, played with till they wore out. Marx, Timpo, Britains, Timmee, MPC, Lido, etc, etc, mass produced thousands of figures and playsets that were designed to be sold via mass merchandisers.

And yes, again most of us bailed out of toys and toy soldiers as we got older, only to return again at some point as we got older, a return to our youth.

Today, there are not ads on TV for toy soldiers, or even toys for that matter, the mom and pops, small chains and hobby shops are all gone, as are the mass produced toy soldiers that were designed to be sold in those outlets.

Kids today are different because generationally, what is put in front of them are gadgets, Iphones, laptops, tablets, computer games, video games; kids today don't want toys or toy soldiers because they don't see them, they're not offered to them, so they don't want them.

One of my best friends youngest son is 12; he doesn't have a toy in the house, just gadgets and video games. He got a new laptop and two new video games and new video game system for Christmas.

Business is done differently today; the brick and mortar store concept is a dinosaur, good luck finding a hobby shop these days, there used to be 50 or 60 of them in Massachusetts; today, there are less than 10. It's become and continues to be internet driven.

You're not going to get kids into this hobby, just not going to happen with rare exceptions; go to a toy soldier show and tell me how many kids you see there. The majority of the ones who are there got dragged there by their father or grandfather.

The plastic toy soldiers that are still produced at this point aren't exactly cheap; you have to find another segment to market to, kids are not it.

 

[Empire MM]

Is it any longer a hobby? Or increasingly a preserve for the more affluent. Rising prices must be accounted for in a huge part by the lower production runs. Wasn't so long ago that vehicles such as tanks were produced in limited edition runs of 1,200. Was this in part a mirage? Bankers investing by buying multiple sets purely for speculation. Did this hide the true state of the hobby we all love and enjoy. In reality the decline had set in some time ago as the majority of us are now let's say mature in age. Like supermarkets having too much store space. Did soldier manufacturers themselves misjudge the true state of the market.

While quality is high. Is the price too high. I can find better value wandering round an antique shop these days for real military items. Than the suggested retail prices of some items these days.

Hi Charlie Brown,

One thing I have noticed is that militaria has also been hit by massive increases in prices over the last 3 to 5 years. As I think you know, I collect WW1 memorabilia and militaria, and also a few medals. The bargains of 3 to 5 years ago have long gone and some of the price tags on things are crazy. That said, my 1917 SMLE has only risen in value by around 15 to 20% in 3 years but my medal sets have stayed static or risen slightly.

The big difference though is that I buy my toy soldiers for enjoyment and not with any thought for investment, much like my prints and paintings and books.

But, I repeat myself again, having witnessed this, it is why I only make 100 and why I number and certificate all figures. If Empire continues to grow the way it is doing, these early sets are going to be an investment too. I went to a filming of the Antiques Roadshow last year and spoke to one of the presenters / valuers. He had heard of Empire (that blew me away I have to say) and he said himself, that if we continues to grow he fully expected to see our product go through his auction house in years to come.

Anyway, that is not what this thread is about, sorry. Passion overtook me {sm4}

Malcolm.:salute::

 

[LTC PaulN]

... To me, it comes down to a generational thing/the way business is conducted at the present time...


Like Business is done differently today; the brick and mortar store concept is a dinosaur, good luck finding a hobby shop these days, there used to be 50 or 60 of them in Massachusetts; today, there are less than 10. It's become and continues to be internet driven.

George... I hear you. My mother's a salesperson for a perfume company... she used to get lots of free swag to hand out as a "gift with purchase"... no more! The whole business of retail sales has changed hugely in the past thirty years.

Large manufacturers like K&C have to be identifying the new markets (places where there's a growing middle class that has disposable income), and creating products that are interesting to those people. That would seem to me to be in areas like China, India, Korea, and other spots in Asia, and Russia. What interests them may not be interesting to us old guard collectors, and our favorite lines may suffer to the creative investment that may have to go towards these lines!

I can't afford stand-alone products. I want to support a small manufacturer, because I personally enjoy supporting a little guy, but I need their product to "blend" (for lack of a better term) with the rest of my collection...in scale, colors, etc. My point to the smaller manufacturers is that standardization of these things may be a pipe dream, but doing what you can to mimic the bigger companies in these and setting yourself apart with creative sculpts/scenes/vehicles is the surest way to keep me and no doubt others coming back, especially if you're doing a genre that is well populated by larger manufacturers (WWII, WWI, Napoleonics, ACW, etc...)

 

[katana]

Toy Soldiers are collected by the senior citizens who actually remember some past conflicts. Senior citizens can afford the exorbitant prices for the better toy soldiers. The younger generations either cannot afford them or are not interested. Think of Video Games as the modern dynamic equivalent of the Military Diorama! The market for Toy Soldiers is aging and shrinking and this will not change. Younger generations are more interested in playing HALO XXX rather than building a diorama. I have built models and painted figures for over 60 years. My old eyes can no longer do so; as well as they used to, so I purchase prebuilt prepainted models that I find of interest. The Pewter and Polystone figures and vehicles are less detailed than 1/35 plastic models; however they are far less expensive than the prebuilt 1/35 scale models and figures. Not to mention they are also substantially less fragile! The Toy Soldiers market will be mostly deceased in 20 years at best!