Is our Hobby Changing? (2 Viewers)

[NZGary]

Overall I would say there is such a variety of new releases coming out onto the market that I can't keep up. Well my wallet can't keep up.

To find something different sometimes you have to go off the beaten track. Take for example the 1066 Hastings figures I am getting made by Regal. Or on the beaten track look at FL and the retreat from Moscow range or New 30 years war stuff. JJDs WW1 stuff is a delight.

Yes some of K&Cs stuff can get a bit samey but there is still a lot of variety there as well. I have just picked up Eight Army Indian troops and they are a joy. And a bit different.

So in my humble opinion the hobby is varied and vibrant.

But I am a simple soul.

Gary

 

[wayne556517]

Where do you get the high production cost from when fuel and raw materials have gone down in price and I'm being told China is starting on a go slow on the economy?

Doesn't mean wages fell.

 

[Imperial Miniatures]

While my background is the wargames industry and I am still finding my way in the Toy Soldier World, I think that you will always see certain popular subjects that all manfacturers will produce. And they are produced because so many people want them.

So, WW2, Napoleonics, Zulu War and other Colonials and ACW are always going to generate new releases from wargames manufacturers in smaller scales and TS manufacturers in the larger ones.

You can release interesting, new sets within those periods which is what I am hoping to do with Imperial Miniatures. Hence the release of the Mafeking Cadets as our first, new set apart from AQM figures.

It is difficult to generate enough collectors or buyers for a full range of figures for The War of Jenkins Ear...

Mike

 

[Empire MM]

This didn't come out the way I intended it but let's face it,John Jenkins is JDD,Andy is KC,Britains is in the capable hands of Ken Osen. Britain's went through a rough period some years ago,where will JDD be If John retires and if the younger generations don't get interested then this part of the hobby could be in trouble.Now there usually is somebody that comes along and fills the void but it's hard to see where it will be in 20-30 years.
Mark

Hi Mark,

I wondered {sm4}

Impossible to see where we will be in 20 to 30 years but, if Andy keeps releasing items such as Fury we stand a chance of picking up younger collectors along the way, that is a great set. Same with Ken and the Vikings. If they get marketed alongside increased interest in the Last Kingdom we could again see new collectors come on board. Innovation and broadening the spectrum is essential.

Malcolm. :salute::

 

[Empire MM]

I certainly don't think manufacturers are becoming lazy, infact quite the opposite. You only have to glance back a few years to see the increased diversity currently on offer now-a-days. What I do think though is that collectors are becoming more demanding and expectations are growing particularly with the steady price creep.

As for the so called 'low hanging fruit' they are probably the collectors who manufactureers rely on to keep their businesses a float.

I think the main issue right now for manufactureers is the increase in production costs and trying to find ways to off set this for the average collector.

Hi,

That's good to read, a positive to my negative. It was why I raised the question. Like most folks, I sit here alone contemplating the hobby etc so it is great to have dialogue and feedback.

I agree too that collectors are becoming more discerning. They appreciate authenticity and accurate poses for sure. Same with attention to the fine detail. I think all manufacturers have upped their game over the last 2 years, I really do and that is great.

Increases in production costs are an issue, for sure. With my company only producing 100, these costs are very high compared to the other larger scale manufacturers and that made the setting of the price point quite a long winded and many times adjusted decision. AS collectors I just think we want value for money rather than a cheaper product / packaging etc.

 

[Empire MM]

Where do you get the high production cost from when fuel and raw materials have gone down in price and I'm being told China is starting on a go slow on the economy?

Hi,

I have not seen a drop in prices from the factory in production or in the manufacturing of the foam inserts and the boxes. The $ / £ relationship has changed a fair bit over the last couple of years though and that impacts.

Also, even though crude has gone down and fuel is cheaper at the pumps, air fares have not come down and nor has freight. It boomed in price and has stayed there. For the smaller manufacturers this is a massive element of the cost. Marketing has not become any cheaper also.

Malcolm. :salute::

 

[Al Fisher]

Any dynamic endeavor must change by definition. Not to change implies stagnation. But what puzzles me are the prices. By that I don't mean some of the newer creations by K&C, Aeroart, Empire, etc; but rather those of the older, less detailed figures (Mignot) that are selling for as much as the newer ones. Perhaps it's only that dealers must make a prifit to make a decent living.

Bosun Al

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi,

I have not seen a drop in prices from the factory in production or in the manufacturing of the foam inserts and the boxes. The $ / £ relationship has changed a fair bit over the last couple of years though and that impacts.

Also, even though crude has gone down and fuel is cheaper at the pumps, air fares have not come down and nor has freight. It boomed in price and has stayed there. For the smaller manufacturers this is a massive element of the cost. Marketing has not become any cheaper also.

Malcolm. :salute::

Hi Malcolm

This post sums it up very well! The cost of the hobby is in exactly what you list. I had a long discussion with a friend in the business a while back and he went through the cost of making a new figure, all the way from concept drawing to production and I bet most people would be stunned by the costs. A lot of folks seem to forget this or perhaps don't understand it so this a great answer to UKSubs question.

Thanks for a good discussion topic on a really freezing day in North Poland.

Dave

 

[uksubs]

Hi,

I have not seen a drop in prices from the factory in production or in the manufacturing of the foam inserts and the boxes. The $ / £ relationship has changed a fair bit over the last couple of years though and that impacts.

Also, even though crude has gone down and fuel is cheaper at the pumps, air fares have not come down and nor has freight. It boomed in price and has stayed there. For the smaller manufacturers this is a massive element of the cost. Marketing has not become any cheaper also.

Malcolm. :salute::

That fine problem is wages in the UK are not keeping up with the sky high toy soldiers prices and what I can't make out why other items made in China are not going up in price every month, my kids toys all came well package this Xmas made in China but don't cost a arm and leg to buy and you look on ebay toy soldiers are not holding there RRP tell you something!

 

[Empire MM]

Hi Malcolm

This post sums it up very well! The cost of the hobby is in exactly what you list. I had a long discussion with a friend in the business a while back and he went through the cost of making a new figure, all the way from concept drawing to production and I bet most people would be stunned by the costs. A lot of folks seem to forget this or perhaps don't understand it so this a great answer to UKSubs question.

Thanks for a good discussion topic on a really freezing day in North Poland.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you. Outside of these costs are things such as the sculpting, posting of raw sculpts, mould making and casting of the masters, master painting in the UK, carriage to China of the masters, carriage from China of the pre production masters, any marketing materials, the cost of attending the shows, Going to Chicago, research trips, researching via books, images etc, design brief costs..... and somewhere we need to make a profit.... Maybe now some folks can see Empire are not that expensive :salute::

Pleased you like he topic too.

Malcolm.

 

[Empire MM]

That fine problem is wages in the UK are not keeping up with the sky high toy soldiers prices and what I can't make out why other items made in China are not going up in price every month, my kids toys all came well package this Xmas made in China but don't cost a arm and leg to buy and you look on ebay toy soldiers are not holding there RRP tell you something!

Hi,

I think we have a few questions here so, my answers are:

1. We have held our price for over 12 months and see no sign of having to increase for around 2 years. I cannot comment for the other companies but, the bigger you are the higher the cost of distribution and marketing.
2. Are toy soldier prices increasing each month?
3. We are talking 100 pieces for me, somewhere between 700 and 1,000 pieces for the larger players. Compare that to the tens of thousands of production units for toys....... Plus, large scale toys / mass commercial items are sea freighted and cheaper to make, it is economy of scale.
4. Re toy soldiers not holding their prices, I agree. That was my reasoning behind limiting production to 100 and numbering and certificating each figure. Once hey are sold out, they are gone and with anything produced in limited quantity, the price should hold on the secondary market. My way of trying to add value and put something back into the hobby.

I still think that toy soldiers offer a good value for money item in general.

Cheers,

Malcolm.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Where do you get the high production cost from when fuel and raw materials have gone down in price and I'm being told China is starting on a go slow on the economy?

Yes China is going through a down turn in their economy, but there have also been significant changes within the Chinese labour market, including a sharp rise in wages for the average factory worker. This is having a significant impact on all industry, including TS manufacturers who are not only dealing with higher costs, but also a reduction in painters etc.

I have a close relative who sells large processing machinary in Asia and travels to China several times a year and ends up in some remote cities in that country. He is seeing huge factories that he had previously visited, now empty. These were bustling businesses the size of football fields, full of rows of factory workers, now moth balled.

Despite what China has previously said, they have a labour shortage, which is now clearly evident as they admit to the failure of their one child policy.

 

[LTC PaulN]

Malcolm,

I think you and I talked about this in London, many of us started in the hobby as youngsters. Personally, I started off with 6 Britains Super Deetail figures from the 8th Army/Desert Rats lineup. We grew up in an age with plastic Navarone mountains, SGT. Rock comic books, and heroic WWII movies on the late show. Most of us discovered girls, rock and roll, cars, and beer...often not in that order... and our collections of plastic soldiers were left in the closet at mom and dad's house. We've come back to the hobby as adults... with more money in our pockets to buy collectible figures. The question we need to look at is how are we building the base of interest in young kids? Are Plastics out there that can stimulate the imagination of a future collector... a kid that will return to the hobby when he figures out that he's not going to shag Katy Perry or be the next Jimi Hendrix, and he or she has an appreciation for the sculpting and painting? Can the hobby compete with sci-fi and high tech toys?

The rest of our society hates the glorification of war, indeed even its replication miniature sculpture or "graphic novels" . The war movies that come out are filled with tragic heroes and antiheroes. Against this backdrop we see the inflation of prices that put the figures out of reach of young collectors, and a large disdain by the greater collecting community for plastic vehicles that could be the pieces that bring the young ones back later.

Just my thoughts...

ATW!
Paul

 

[Empire MM]

Malcolm,

I think you and I talked about this in London, many of us started in the hobby as youngsters. Personally, I started off with 6 Britains Super Deetail figures from the 8th Army/Desert Rats lineup. We grew up in an age with plastic Navarone mountains, SGT. Rock comic books, and heroic WWII movies on the late show. Most of us discovered girls, rock and roll, cars, and beer...often not in that order... and our collections of plastic soldiers were left in the closet at mom and dad's house. We've come back to the hobby as adults... with more money in our pockets to buy collectible figures. The question we need to look at is how are we building the base of interest in young kids? Are Plastics out there that can stimulate the imagination of a future collector... a kid that will return to the hobby when he figures out that he's not going to shag Katy Perry or be the next Jimi Hendrix, and he or she has an appreciation for the sculpting and painting? Can the hobby compete with sci-fi and high tech toys?

The rest of our society hates the glorification of war, indeed even its replication miniature sculpture or "graphic novels" . The war movies that come out are filled with tragic heroes and antiheroes. Against this backdrop we see the inflation of prices that put the figures out of reach of young collectors, and a large disdain by the greater collecting community for plastic vehicles that could be the pieces that bring the young ones back later.

Just my thoughts...

ATW!
Paul

Hi Paul,

We sure did and I enjoyed the dialogue, the only thing missing was the beer! {sm4}

It is one of the things that I keep saying we need to come together as a hobby to attack. Maybe flats have a place, something akin to a "orrible histories" type pop out / cut out book, war gaming like Warhammer, I really do not have the answer. I think K&C releasing the Fury tank and crew is superb, very tempted and I do not do WW1 {sm3}

I have one customer who takes dioramas into schools to explain battles, if this lights up any kids, who knows..... Maybe we need to get this into Westpoint or Sandhurst {sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

Stay safe Paul, Happy New Year.

Malcolm. :salute::

 

[sammy719]

No doubt our hobby is changing, just in the short 10,11 years I have been involved in the "metal" part of the toy soldier hobby it has certainly evolved, some of that good, some of that not so good, that being we have had an abundance of companies join the ranks of the metal toy soldier world and a vast array of product to choose from, all types of styles, eras, campaigns, scale etc. also price point as many have mentioned has increased in most all aspects of the hobby, and as in almost everything in life these days prices go up and rarely go down and the average "Joe" collector like myself have to pick and choose what and when to buy, back in the "good ol days" a set of 4 K&C WWII guys might cost you 89.00 bucks which isn't to shabby, those days have past us by and that's not a knock on K&C most all companies are having to increase costs for one reason or another, but in my small nook of the toy soldier world all is well and I believe the hobby has most certainly changed for the better, (if we could get some prices to drop be even better) I use this forum for instance, I have been a long time member here and have seen many collectors who posted here often up and disappear for their own reasons but notice new fellas fall in to take their place, so I believe our hobby is strong and will be around for the long haul, or at least I'm hoping that's the case...Sammy

 

[LTC PaulN]

I won't go near price as many have been so eloquent so far, there's not much left to add to the discussion.

Define changing.

I think that quality has gotten much better since I came back to collecting figures and started collecting metal figures. Scale and proportion, historic accuracy and detail have gone in a direction that has had me take a critical eye to the older pieces of my collection...

Mattes vs. Glossy.

I think almost every conflict of the past thousand years has found representation in miniature...

Besides ceremonials, the forays into "non-military" lines are pretty limited...does that represent change or remaining static?

 

[nysoldiers]

Some observations from someone who has collected, played with and painted toy soldiers for over 50 years:

In the 1950's most of the boys on my block in Queens (a borough of New York City) played with "green plastic soldiers", Marx playsets and "dime store metals" (Barclay I think).
Some of us graduated to metal Britains, Elastolin "composition" figures and painted plastic soldiers. We also painted our own Airfix plastics and Imrie Risely metals along with model kits for planes, tanks and vehicles.
There were many local brands as well as the more exotic European made toy soldiers. Basically there were WWII, ACW, AWI and Medieval figures available with limited poses and very basic paint jobs.

So to me we live in a "Golden Age" of toy soldiers or more accurately military and historical miniatures. Of course we are now paying the price for more "art than toy" and collecting rather than playing seems more the norm. Hard to fight backyard battles with $40 to $60 dollar plus individual infantrymen and $90 to $150 for a single cavalry figure. And $200-$300 dollar tanks and vehicles...we wouldn't dare to blow them up with a firecracker or roll them through real mud!

No doubt that price and the many distractions that our younger generations have (video games, computers, cable, sports, social media, etc.) will dissuade most from joining our hobby.
There are, however, the exceptions who love history, painting, war-gaming and their sharing of a hobby with relatives.

My suggestions for increasing the market would be to try and tap the Asian markets....China, India, Southeast Asia. With growing affluence and nationalism there might be a potential market currently not being exploited. K&C has success with their Imperial China and Orient series. I have suggested to them that they expand into some action figures that include Mongols, Vietnamese and the various tribal adversaries.
And I also believe that more modern warfare series might entice younger collectors........Middle Eastern, Russian and Eastern European, African and South American conflicts along with contemporary US, Western European, Australian and Canadian fighting forces.

So many choices today that I wish would have been available in my prime collecting years.

 

[Terp152]

Malcolm originalyl posed the questions "It feels to me that we are seeing a diminshment of creativity from some manufacturers and almost a lazy approach being taken in attempts to gain new collectors to their brands. I know that I could stand accused of the same with our Colonial range but, I would counter that with saying the poses are creative and that the figures feature additions not seen before, thus being creative and adding to collections.

It feels that a number of manufactruers are releasing range upon range of pieces in a me too attempt. One area of ths being the number of choices of Roman pieces hitting the market of late. This would be Ok if there was some variety / different periods / themes but, to me at least, they are all mostly the same. We have, in a way, also seen this with the 7 years war......

I have now noticed one post that asks if one manufacturer has amended the scale of some new releases to fit with another manufacturers??? What??"

I would say product innovation has expanded, not decreased, in recent yrs. Examples, to name a few, KCs movie line series, Gallipoli series with whale boats and steam launches, WB Vikings and more. Who would have thought anything new could come from the WWI conflict? Yet look at all the JJD releases including their Knights of the Skies series, all very innovative, and the WB German field kitchen line. Sculpting and painting have drastically improved the realism of individual figs. I can't use older figs with newer models in dios due to the vast differences in appearance. And I applaud the improvements.

As to manufactures using an "amended" scale to match another. If ONLY they would all do this!! Collectors desperately want same scale to use various manufacturers figs in their dios/displays. One mainstream manufacturer (one of the "big 3") told me he was asked by another if it would be okay to match his scale with a new series to match his line. He was all for it. The reasoning is it broadened the scope and would encourage collectors to buy more product.

As to releases with minor differences in poses, etc. Again, I welcome any new fig in a line I collect. It generally fills in voids in units for dios. Subtle differences are good for figs in line of battle etc. I mainly use WB ACW for my dios and very much welcomed the FL entry into the period to add their figs to "my units." Take a look at UK Reb/Bob's Civil War Diaries to see a vast array of manufacturers displayed in a magnificent series of dios. So do I want to see 3 or 4 manufacturers releasing 15-20 versions of charging Confederate soldiers, or 10 different British soldiers standing in a square at Waterloo? You bet! :wink2:

Just my two cents. :smile2:
Chris

 

[Ivanhoe]

You created some great discussion with this post.

Being born when Truman was still President, and receiving 'toy' soldiers (both metal and plastic) as a child, I have seen many changes in the field...and as most commenters have stated...for the good.

Cannot argue with aging of 'interest' base.

When I read your post for the first time, my thoughts were taken towards society at large...look at vehicle manufacturing, we have gone from a multitude of different distinct models every year to sort of a 'one size fits all' indistinguishable from each other look...probably your "low hanging fruit" approach.

"Risk versus Reward"...Economics both rewards and punishes those who take risks.

Thank you for stimulating the discussion.

 

[Empire MM]

Malcolm originalyl posed the questions "It feels to me that we are seeing a diminshment of creativity from some manufacturers and almost a lazy approach being taken in attempts to gain new collectors to their brands. I know that I could stand accused of the same with our Colonial range but, I would counter that with saying the poses are creative and that the figures feature additions not seen before, thus being creative and adding to collections.

It feels that a number of manufactruers are releasing range upon range of pieces in a me too attempt. One area of ths being the number of choices of Roman pieces hitting the market of late. This would be Ok if there was some variety / different periods / themes but, to me at least, they are all mostly the same. We have, in a way, also seen this with the 7 years war......

I have now noticed one post that asks if one manufacturer has amended the scale of some new releases to fit with another manufacturers??? What??"

I would say product innovation has expanded, not decreased, in recent yrs. Examples, to name a few, KCs movie line series, Gallipoli series with whale boats and steam launches, WB Vikings and more. Who would have thought anything new could come from the WWI conflict? Yet look at all the JJD releases including their Knights of the Skies series, all very innovative, and the WB German field kitchen line. Sculpting and painting have drastically improved the realism of individual figs. I can't use older figs with newer models in dios due to the vast differences in appearance. And I applaud the improvements.

As to manufactures using an "amended" scale to match another. If ONLY they would all do this!! Collectors desperately want same scale to use various manufacturers figs in their dios/displays. One mainstream manufacturer (one of the "big 3") told me he was asked by another if it would be okay to match his scale with a new series to match his line. He was all for it. The reasoning is it broadened the scope and would encourage collectors to buy more product.

As to releases with minor differences in poses, etc. Again, I welcome any new fig in a line I collect. It generally fills in voids in units for dios. Subtle differences are good for figs in line of battle etc. I mainly use WB ACW for my dios and very much welcomed the FL entry into the period to add their figs to "my units." Take a look at UK Reb/Bob's Civil War Diaries to see a vast array of manufacturers displayed in a magnificent series of dios. So do I want to see 3 or 4 manufacturers releasing 15-20 versions of charging Confederate soldiers, or 10 different British soldiers standing in a square at Waterloo? You bet! :wink2:

Just my two cents. :smile2:
Chris

Hi Chris,

Love your comments and observations, very interesting to my (as a collector) but I also suspect this to helpful to all of us manufacturers too.

I agree, there are some great innovations, as the ones you have mentioned. My comment was, if you like, aimed at some smaller manufacturers, me included possibly if I am honest. The constant same old is safe and I know I have released some but, they do sell as basic poses (with slight changes) are always welcome in my displays / dios too.

My only concern (dare I even say this ......) is with the scale question {sm3} Just supposing, one manufacturer changed his entire range sizes to match those of another, would the benefit in cross selling outweigh the losses to both companies from people who either: stopped collecting the range due to the variance from previous figures and / or changed allegiances to save money??

Maybe I am playing devils advocate here but...... interesting question.....

Overall though, I have to say, I love this hobby and the collectors (mostly {sm4}{sm4} ).

Malcolm. :salute::