Is our Hobby Changing? (1 Viewer)

[katana]

In the US interest income used to offset inflation. Not any more with zero interest rates; your savings are consummed by inflation. The world ecconomy has not recovered it has stagnated and it looks like another recession is coming in 2016. Interesting Times!

 

[Empire MM]

OK, Devils advocate time.

Manufacturers cut their prices, this devalues the stock retailers are holding, devalues previous purchases, this forces retailers to cut back on new stock holding which, in turn makes manufacturers have to cut back on releases. Manufacturers profits fall, they advertise less and produce less literature and spend less at shows on tables and displays to offset the losses........

Or...


Retailers cut their margins, stock less adinfinitum ....

Discuss.

 

[joesgis]

The glaring thing to me is, aside from the fact that many of us have ever-shrinking discretionary funds, most products matte TS manufacturers are making today are inferior to the products they were producing yesterday. Now this isn't true of all manufacturer's, but it is of most.
My intention is to not to call anyone out, but just to say we're not only talking about lighter wallets and rising prices, but overall the quality of the product has diminished in some cases. It's just hard to justify buying some of the new things today when some of the older stuff is so much better.

Joe

 

[Charlie Brown]

OK, Devils advocate time.

Manufacturers cut their prices, this devalues the stock retailers are holding, devalues previous purchases, this forces retailers to cut back on new stock holding which, in turn makes manufacturers have to cut back on releases. Manufacturers profits fall, they advertise less and produce less literature and spend less at shows on tables and displays to offset the losses........

Or...


Retailers cut their margins, stock less adinfinitum ....

Discuss.

When Bachmann bought WB's in the UK they increased prices on existing stock that was held. If I recall correctly it was actually 2 price rises in a short period of time. Manufacturers made their own bed.

 

[Empire MM]

The glaring thing to me is, aside from the fact that many of us have ever-shrinking discretionary funds, most products matte TS manufacturers are making today are inferior to the products they were producing yesterday. Now this isn't true of all manufacturer's, but it is of most.
My intention is to not to call anyone out, but just to say we're not only talking about lighter wallets and rising prices, but overall the quality of the product has diminished in some cases. It's just hard to justify buying some of the new things today when some of the older stuff is so much better.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I would tend to agree with you and like you, I have no wish to name names. In balance though, some improvements have been made, Britain's Vikings is one example and then if course, Empires stuff is very good ( but I May be biased) {sm4}{{sm4}

Value for money is a demand and should be a goal I feel, along with variety of product.

My disposable has almost dissapeared, but I have good reason. I still buy but just less and less often and I am more selective.

Malcolm. :salute::

 

[Jack]

What I never understand in these discussions (and I have never been in business so I have no personal experience to fall back on) is the question of whether TS are expensive (general agreement there) or whether they are unnecessarily expensive (contested). Are people arguing that TS companies are intentionally keeping the cost of their product artificially high? Would that not require price fixing? Would that not mean that one company could break ranks and offer similar quality at a much reduced price and corner the market? For all the discussion/argument of whose products are best, which ones represent the best value and so on, there is no huge gulf between the major matte manufactures that I can see. I think if you lined up representative figures from each of the big boys many people could place them in a rough order of cost/quality with the errors perhaps coming down to personal taste or historical interest.

Who would bear the cost of a reduction anyway - the producers of the raw materials? the painters? the makers? the shop owners? Do they each take a cut? Should people make less money in China because the Aussie dollar has taken a hit ... one it needed to take given we are trying to sell stuff to people.

I believe (anecdotally) that in the US your wage can be cut (is that true)? In Australia, or at least the circles I move in, companies can 'downsize', 'go broke', 'reduce the hours of part timers/ sessional' or bully you into quitting but what I get paid per hour is what I get paid per hour even in the event of a zombie apocalypse. My employment experience is probably far more limited than many people but where are the cuts to come? Once a TS figures crosses into Australia, there are no cuts possible so they would have to come in China.

 

[Nelson1976]

Malcom, thank-you for starting what is a very interesting discussion.

Like most on here, I bemoan the increasing cost of product - there is so much more I would like to buy but can ill afford to.

If I may just detail a few naive thoughts about the current industry business model....

Personally, when I do buy I like to buy directly from the manfacturer. This in turn has got me thinking given that, as collectors we pay the same price for a product whether from a dealer or the manufacturer.

This implies then a value chain along the following lines - say the Net cost of manufacturing a figure might be USD10 (I stress I have no true idea of actuall numbers here here, but have based the ratio of marks-ups on what I know of other industries, publishing in particular), the manufacturer then might sell to a dealer for USD20. Then one might assume there is mark up of say USD10 to allow the dealer to make a profit which in turn implies that the dealer and the manufacturer have agreed a retail price of USD30.

However, in this day and age of internet, I can't help wondering then if manufacturers might do better simply to sell directly to customers thereby allowing an overall reduction in retail price? Using the hypothetical numbers above then, if retail prices were reduced to USD24 vis direct sales, we'd be happier as consumers and in a position to purchase more while the manufacturer would also achieve better margins with which to invest in more and more interesting product.

Sadly this would likely mean much more pressure and disintermediation of dealers, but more direct selling ought to allow more collectors to continue to remain involved while allowing continued vibrancy from manufacturers.

Forgive me if I have missed the woods from the trees here and I await to be disabused of my notions - personally I confess that there is nothing I like more than visiting shops and seeing figures, dioramas etc in the flesh....

...aside, of course, from actually being able to purchase the product itself.

 

[desk11desk12]

Malcom, thank-you for starting what is a very interesting discussion.

Like most on here, I bemoan the increasing cost of product - there is so much more I would like to buy but can ill afford to.

If I may just detail a few naive thoughts about the current industry business model....

Personally, when I do buy I like to buy directly from the manfacturer. This in turn has got me thinking given that, as collectors we pay the same price for a product whether from a dealer or the manufacturer.

This implies then a value chain along the following lines - say the Net cost of manufacturing a figure might be USD10 (I stress I have no true idea of actuall numbers here here, but have based the ratio of marks-ups on what I know of other industries, publishing in particular), the manufacturer then might sell to a dealer for USD20. Then one might assume there is mark up of say USD10 to allow the dealer to make a profit which in turn implies that the dealer and the manufacturer have agreed a retail price of USD30.

However, in this day and age of internet, I can't help wondering then if manufacturers might do better simply to sell directly to customers thereby allowing an overall reduction in retail price? Using the hypothetical numbers above then, if retail prices were reduced to USD24 vis direct sales, we'd be happier as consumers and in a position to purchase more while the manufacturer would also achieve better margins with which to invest in more and more interesting product.

Sadly this would likely mean much more pressure and disintermediation of dealers, but more direct selling ought to allow more collectors to continue to remain involved while allowing continued vibrancy from manufacturers.

Forgive me if I have missed the woods from the trees here and I await to be disabused of my notions - personally I confess that there is nothing I like more than visiting shops and seeing figures, dioramas etc in the flesh....

...aside, of course, from actually being able to purchase the product itself.

You're right, it would reduce the cost of product around 50%. Case closed! Time for manufacturers to change their distribution model and make a mint and create happy collectors. Sorry dealers you’re just casualties of the new ecommerce model…WAIT A MINUTE!!!

I’ve been collecting for about 12 years now and for me it’s more than buying a toaster from Amazon.com. It’s the comradery between other collectors, manufacturer’s and yes, the dealers.

Aside from building my on history in dioramas, there’s nothing more pleasant in this hobby, then visiting a “brick and mortar” shop or toy soldier show and mingling with other collectors and others in the hobby.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Carlos

 

[braddinpa]

I agree with Carlos especially regarding brick and mortar stores. They help bring in new collectors and are important in the chain. The reason I collect is because I stopped by Johns shop in Gettysburg. Brad

 

[jazzeum]

Trust me. If there were no dealers, the price would not be reduced by one red cent. As proof, look at the special Arnhem figures K & C are selling direct and which the dealers can't purchase. The price is the same as other figures.

Frankly, I don't think it's appropriate for a manufacturer to compete with a dealer. Look at other businesses -- such as automobiles -- that use dealer networks. Do they compete with their dealers? By and large, no.

 

[Grognard]

I do believe that dealers are an important part of maintaining this hobby's ecosystem healthy. Toy soldiers are pieces of art in their own way. I cannot imagine museums closing and putting their entire collection online instead. I personally got the bug when visiting Les Drapeaux de France shop in Paris 20 years ago and each time I go back there, I still feel the same excitement of a kid going to a candy store (actually my favorite candy store is also in Paris, it's called La Cure Gourmande)

 

[The Military Workshop]

Malcom, thank-you for starting what is a very interesting discussion.

Like most on here, I bemoan the increasing cost of product - there is so much more I would like to buy but can ill afford to.

If I may just detail a few naive thoughts about the current industry business model....

Personally, when I do buy I like to buy directly from the manfacturer. This in turn has got me thinking given that, as collectors we pay the same price for a product whether from a dealer or the manufacturer.

This implies then a value chain along the following lines - say the Net cost of manufacturing a figure might be USD10 (I stress I have no true idea of actuall numbers here here, but have based the ratio of marks-ups on what I know of other industries, publishing in particular), the manufacturer then might sell to a dealer for USD20. Then one might assume there is mark up of say USD10 to allow the dealer to make a profit which in turn implies that the dealer and the manufacturer have agreed a retail price of USD30.

However, in this day and age of internet, I can't help wondering then if manufacturers might do better simply to sell directly to customers thereby allowing an overall reduction in retail price? Using the hypothetical numbers above then, if retail prices were reduced to USD24 vis direct sales, we'd be happier as consumers and in a position to purchase more while the manufacturer would also achieve better margins with which to invest in more and more interesting product.

Sadly this would likely mean much more pressure and disintermediation of dealers, but more direct selling ought to allow more collectors to continue to remain involved while allowing continued vibrancy from manufacturers.

Forgive me if I have missed the woods from the trees here and I await to be disabused of my notions - personally I confess that there is nothing I like more than visiting shops and seeing figures, dioramas etc in the flesh....

...aside, of course, from actually being able to purchase the product itself.

I note you are in Hong Kong. When you say you buy direct from a manufacturer are you buying from a shop in Pacific Place or from a location in mainland China ?

 

[Nelson1976]

I note you are in Hong Kong. When you say you buy direct from a manufacturer are you buying from a shop in Pacific Place or from a location in mainland China ?

I do buy from K&C of course, but also from others, such as FL, from their websites direct.... I'm not aware of a dealer in China I'm afraid.

 

[Nelson1976]

You're right, it would reduce the cost of product around 50%. Case closed! Time for manufacturers to change their distribution model and make a mint and create happy collectors. Sorry dealers you’re just casualties of the new ecommerce model…WAIT A MINUTE!!!

I’ve been collecting for about 12 years now and for me it’s more than buying a toaster from Amazon.com. It’s the comradery between other collectors, manufacturer’s and yes, the dealers.

Aside from building my on history in dioramas, there’s nothing more pleasant in this hobby, then visiting a “brick and mortar” shop or toy soldier show and mingling with other collectors and others in the hobby.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Carlos

Carlos - I confess my heart wholeheartedly agrees with you, but with prices where they are, a lot of us, it seems, are only able to buy less and less. What that implies for enticing others into the hobby is also sobering Perhaps the manufacturers may want to consider more tiers of product such as K&C has done with the Alamo series?

 

[The Military Workshop]

I do buy from K&C of course, but also from others, such as FL, from their websites direct.... I'm not aware of a dealer in China I'm afraid.

My first experience with toy soldiers was when I was 12 and returning from a school trip to Europe. We had a couple of hours to wander around Ostend before getting on the ferry. In a side street was a shop with soldiers in the window and I bought about 20 (dont ask me the price but I had not spent much of my holiday budget). Prior to that had played with plastics for years. I even had soldiers on the curtains in my bedroom{sm4}

My second encounter with a toy soldier shop was in late 80's in Wyndham Street, Hong Kong. Went to pick up my wife from work and turns out original King and Country shop was right next door. Since then they moved to Pacific Place and I suspect it is their shop that creates more Hong Kong collectors than their web page. Three major hotels above them probably helps also.

 

[Empire MM]

Malcom, thank-you for starting what is a very interesting discussion.

Like most on here, I bemoan the increasing cost of product - there is so much more I would like to buy but can ill afford to.

If I may just detail a few naive thoughts about the current industry business model....

Personally, when I do buy I like to buy directly from the manfacturer. This in turn has got me thinking given that, as collectors we pay the same price for a product whether from a dealer or the manufacturer.

This implies then a value chain along the following lines - say the Net cost of manufacturing a figure might be USD10 (I stress I have no true idea of actuall numbers here here, but have based the ratio of marks-ups on what I know of other industries, publishing in particular), the manufacturer then might sell to a dealer for USD20. Then one might assume there is mark up of say USD10 to allow the dealer to make a profit which in turn implies that the dealer and the manufacturer have agreed a retail price of USD30.

However, in this day and age of internet, I can't help wondering then if manufacturers might do better simply to sell directly to customers thereby allowing an overall reduction in retail price? Using the hypothetical numbers above then, if retail prices were reduced to USD24 vis direct sales, we'd be happier as consumers and in a position to purchase more while the manufacturer would also achieve better margins with which to invest in more and more interesting product.

Sadly this would likely mean much more pressure and disintermediation of dealers, but more direct selling ought to allow more collectors to continue to remain involved while allowing continued vibrancy from manufacturers.

Forgive me if I have missed the woods from the trees here and I await to be disabused of my notions - personally I confess that there is nothing I like more than visiting shops and seeing figures, dioramas etc in the flesh....

...aside, of course, from actually being able to purchase the product itself.

Hi Nelson,

Thank you, I am amazed the interest my question has erated and also the dialogue it has produced.

Simply, we need retailers. If not, how do you view new products / manufacturers? Toy soldiers have to be seen and picked up. I have lost count of the number of peole who have come to me at shows and said: "wow, your figures look fantastic, nothing like the photo`s" so, were I to rely on direct web sales Empire would be a non starter....

To also answer the analogy of cheaper costs buying direct. Manufacturers have overheads too. OK, not a shop but, advertising / marketing costs me a small fortune! Each LTSS costs me around $1,000 to $1,500 to attend and Chicago will cost me around $5000 so...... Buying direct helps to offset these costs for sure but they never fully cover them.

Believe me, manufacturers do their sums and in general, we do not make mega buckstrust me on that one {sm2} Even when I reach the stage of selling everything through that I release, I still will only be making a modest living. If you compare that to the investment and risk factor a business angel / investor would tell me I was stupid!

Keep supporting those shops and hey, why not buy some stuff from me directly too {sm4}{sm4}

Best regards,

Malcolm.

 

[waynepoo]

My first experience with toy soldiers was when I was 12 and returning from a school trip to Europe. We had a couple of hours to wander around Ostend before getting on the ferry. In a side street was a shop with soldiers in the window and I bought about 20 (dont ask me the price but I had not spent much of my holiday budget). Prior to that had played with plastics for years. I even had soldiers on the curtains in my bedroom{sm4}

My second encounter with a toy soldier shop was in late 80's in Wyndham Street, Hong Kong. Went to pick up my wife from work and turns out original King and Country shop was right next door. Since then they moved to Pacific Place and I suspect it is their shop that creates more Hong Kong collectors than their web page. Three major hotels above them probably helps also.

What! I don't believe you were ever 12 years old...............^&grin



Wayne.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Simply, we need retailers. If not, how do you view new products / manufacturers? Toy soldiers have to be seen and picked up. I have lost count of the number of peole who have come to me at shows and said: "wow, your figures look fantastic, nothing like the photo`s" so, were I to rely on direct web sales Empire would be a non starter....

Perhaps it's manufacturers that need to rethink their retail strategy. Take the product to the customer. Akin to the old fashioned travelling salesman. Who literally toured the country. Even clubbing together to save on and share costs.

 

[jazzeum]

Perhaps it's manufacturers that need to rethink their retail strategy. Take the product to the customer. Akin to the old fashioned travelling salesman. Who literally toured the country. Even clubbing together to save on and share costs.

Tongue in cheek I hope; in this day and age the manufacturer and dealer does come to your home but via the internet.

If I'm looking for a piece, my first stop is the Treefrog website.

 

[braddinpa]

Also think shows are good for the hobby. Although I have been to only 1 it was great talking to people and seeing everything. It was great taking to George at Gettysburg and a few other collectors I met there.