KING & COUNTRY Dispatches -- June 2016 (1 Viewer)

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Really like this whole scene. - Is the gate & walls a future release or a retired set from the past?

It's SP 023, European Walls, and goes well with SP 017, the French Farm House, both long retired. Since the Farm House has been redone, maybe we will see some version of the Walls again.
 
i don't mean to be a downer and am generally not overly "politically correct", but should we be slinging the term "Jap" so much? Isn't it a racial slur?

We have discussed the shrinking of the our hobby and if I were Japanese, I would not find it a very welcoming place. Especially, when Andy and the team have done such a great job of not having the figures faces look cartoonish.

It's not PC and it's considered a slur, quite different than Aussies. Yes, there are worse words to refer to Asians but this is offensive too. I used to be a court reporter back in the 70s and was working at a trade commission hearing when several representatives of industries affected by Japanese imports used the word "Jap". The attorney representing the Japanese groups, who was a Japanese American WW II veteran, got up and complained about the use of the word. The Chairman of the Commission admonished them not to use the word again.
 
It's not PC and it's considered a slur, quite different than Aussies. Yes, there are worse words to refer to Asians but this is offensive too. I used to be a court reporter back in the 70s and was working at a trade commission hearing when several representatives of industries affected by Japanese imports used the word "Jap". The attorney representing the Japanese groups, who was a Japanese American WW II veteran, got up and complained about the use of the word. The Chairman of the Commission admonished them not to use the word again.

I think it really comes down to the context inwhich the term is being used. I'd agree using the word 'Jap' during a trade commission hearing would be considered offensive, however in regards of it's use on a TS forum discussing Japanese WW2 figures I don't see the problem.

The term was used widely, both during and after WW2, as was a variety of words used to describe the Germans, many of which are still in regular use today and used on this forum and in advertising by various TS manufacturers.
 
I think it really comes down to the context inwhich the term is being used. I'd agree using the word 'Jap' during a trade commission hearing would be considered offensive, however in regards of it's use on a TS forum discussing Japanese WW2 figures I don't see the problem.

The term was used widely, both during and after WW2, as was a variety of words used to describe the Germans, many of which are still in regular use today and used on this forum and in advertising by various TS manufacturers.

I'm of Japanese descent. In Hawaii, they are many, many different cultures and everybody had a bad word to describe an ethnic group, probably no different than anywhere else (probably learned it from our parents). Growing up, I have never heard the word "Jap" in a positive or even neutral light. That being said, I know this Forum is worldwide and it appears no one is being malicious with the Jap word and so I don't take offense to its use. However, every time I see its use, I get a slight twinge of discomfort.
What's funny, is that I was disappointed when JB changed his thread title from, Cowboys and Injuns to Cowboys and Native Americans.
 
It's not PC and it's considered a slur, quite different than Aussies. Yes, there are worse words to refer to Asians but this is offensive too. I used to be a court reporter back in the 70s and was working at a trade commission hearing when several representatives of industries affected by Japanese imports used the word "Jap". The attorney representing the Japanese groups, who was a Japanese American WW II veteran, got up and complained about the use of the word. The Chairman of the Commission admonished them not to use the word again.

The worlds moved on from 46 years ago mate ^&grin^&grin

If some people find a slang word offensive on a toy soldier/military minature forum i find that a bit weird it was never a problem 4 years ago when this fella made a appearence so what is the big deal now,or was it just the person who said it some have a problem with ^&confuse^&confuse

FOB087.jpg
 
I'm of Japanese descent. In Hawaii, they are many, many different cultures and everybody had a bad word to describe an ethnic group, probably no different than anywhere else (probably learned it from our parents). Growing up, I have never heard the word "Jap" in a positive or even neutral light. That being said, I know this Forum is worldwide and it appears no one is being malicious with the Jap word and so I don't take offense to its use. However, every time I see its use, I get a slight twinge of discomfort.
What's funny, is that I was disappointed when JB changed his thread title from, Cowboys and Injuns to Cowboys and Native Americans.

I really appreciate your feedback and completely understand the 'twinge' factor. Although largely European, I have Maori blood in me and many of my relatives are of Maori descent and I live and work in a very multi cultural society.

I don't have a problem with the term being used here, because as you say it's not being used in a malicious fashion and it's in keeping with the subject matter.

I think folks need to keep this sort of thing in perspective and to be honest I'm surprised the topic was raised in the first place.
 
thanks for the technical bit. we seem to agree that neither tank or mesh skirts were available for Normandy. Too much flights of fancy for it being used in a Normandy setting

The K&C model is the Jagdpanzer IV/70A. Produced by Alkett; thus the A designation. The A version is higher than the V (Volmag) version since the Panzer IV hull was not modified in order to acellerate production. The superstructure was mounted on the standard hull. 260 of this interum version were produced starting in August of 1944. The Thoma Schurzen came latter as a means to save materials.
 
i don't mean to be a downer and am generally not overly "politically correct", but should we be slinging the term "Jap" so much? Isn't it a racial slur?

We have discussed the shrinking of the our hobby and if I were Japanese, I would not find it a very welcoming place. Especially, when Andy and the team have done such a great job of not having the figures faces look cartoonish.
Another storm in a tea cup! Was not an issue on this forum until mentioned....move on, being too PC is frankly boring. We are dealing with TS remembering a era 70 odd years ago and that's one of the more polite terms the then enemy were called, it's referring to then not now.

 
The figure pictured above illustrates the difference between depiction of a historical occurrence and usage of an offensive term in current language. One is acceptable, the other not.

The harm in using an offensive term "innocently" or without "malice" is that when repeated it becomes commonplace. I have experienced this firsthand on more many occasions, from childhood to college to adult life.

Yes, the world has moved on: offensive terms are no longer acceptable.
 
The word "jap" on the newspaper is of historical reference. It doesn't mean we should call Japanese japs... " my daddy did, so why can't I?" Isn't a defense.
I am far from a politically correct person, but there is no "in this instance it's ok but in that it's not". Nip and jap are derogatory labels, period.

Brits will refer to themselves as Brits, Aussies as Aussies, etc. Japanese do not call themselves japs nor nips. Doing some research, prior to wwII it was not derogatory. Since wwII the Japanese community finds it offensive. To me the group being referred to gets to pick what's offensive, no one else.
 
Another storm in a tea cup! Was not an issue on this forum until mentioned....move on, being too PC is frankly boring. We are dealing with TS remembering a era 70 odd years ago and that's one of the more polite terms the then enemy were called, it's referring to then not now.


Yes, really boring. Let's move on and talk about toy soldiers.
 
The figure pictured above illustrates the difference between depiction of a historical occurrence and usage of an offensive term in current language. One is acceptable, the other not.

The harm in using an offensive term "innocently" or without "malice" is that when repeated it becomes commonplace. I have experienced this firsthand on more many occasions, from childhood to college to adult life.

Yes, the world has moved on: offensive terms are no longer acceptable.

I completely agree with Jazz and Zach. The figure is in an historical context and is part of what we study here. I think it is perfectly reasonable, although I do cringe as I think of how the US treated its citizens of Japanese descent. Especially, after the example of many of their men fighting so bravely and effectively against our enemies.

I also find it interesting the reactions, since I raised it as a legitimate question. I did not scold anyone, I just asked, "Should we use this term?" We have to be able to ask this type of question, even on a toy soldier forum.

What I write below is not to compare our use of "Jap" to the experience I had at university, but to show why I think it is important to ask the question even if others don't like it. This will be my last comment on the issue. Not my job to control others, but it is to ask the question.

I am absolutely of the dominant culture in the US, and was raised by parents from the South primarily on military bases around the world and in the US. When I attended a university that was predominantly Irish Catholic from the Northeastern part of the US, I received a small taste of what it is like to be the "minority." On day one at football camp I heard the first joke about having sex with my mother and sister, then farm animals and by the end of the day I was asked if I was part of the KKK. At first, I played all this stuff off as jokes, and even enjoyed the attention when the entire school had heard of the "hick" or "redneck." When I got back to my dorm one day and there was a large drawing of me dressed in the garb of a KKK member burning a cross I knew I had to do something. That was when it stopped being a joke and I tried to stop it. Of course, I was told to "lighten up", it was only a "joke" and I was taking myself too seriously. Then it got worse and more malicious. From this point forward, especially on the football team, I would rarely be called by my name, I was just "stupid hick," "dumb redneck" or "insert farm animal here"-f***er. Almost every time I walked into a room I would hear a chorus of, "Hey Redneck! Who won the big war! We kicked your inbred a$$3$ then and we'll do it again!"

While there were a few other southerners at the school, few wanted to get to close to me. One confided that they didn't want to become collateral damage. They were teased as well, but did not want to end up like me. It was only in my junior (3rd) year that some of my regular classmate and younger members of the football team started noticing and getting concerned by it. I had all but erased my southern accent, dressed impeccably and had shown that in fact the "stupid hick" was smarter than most of my peers, so all the teasing seemed absurd to them. So, they started asking, "Why do you tease him about this? The last thing that comes to mind is that he is a redneck." Most of the time they were told to "relax," "lighten up" or just "STFU, he is a stupid hick and we all know it." But the questions from others were what helped the most. They helped me, but it was what finally turned the tide and by the end of my senior year the comments and jokes had become pretty rare. Usually only when people were really drunk.

For me the lesson was not lost. When I tried to ask people to stop what had gone from teasing to abuse it only made matters worse. When the other Irish Catholics / rich Northeasterners started questioning it then the behavior began to change.

It also ignited a passion in me to help others, especially young men from cultures that are thought less of in our society. One of these young men, who is covered in gang tattoos, is now on his way to Columbia University to study economics. He likes to joke about how often he is asked if I am his lawyer.

Ok, I am done. Back to toy soldiers.
 
I completely agree with Jazz and Zach. The figure is in an historical context and is part of what we study here. I think it is perfectly reasonable, although I do cringe as I think of how the US treated its citizens of Japanese descent. Especially, after the example of many of their men fighting so bravely and effectively against our enemies.

I also find it interesting the reactions, since I raised it as a legitimate question. I did not scold anyone, I just asked, "Should we use this term?" We have to be able to ask this type of question, even on a toy soldier forum.

What I write below is not to compare our use of "Jap" to the experience I had at university, but to show why I think it is important to ask the question even if others don't like it. This will be my last comment on the issue. Not my job to control others, but it is to ask the question.

I am absolutely of the dominant culture in the US, and was raised by parents from the South primarily on military bases around the world and in the US. When I attended a university that was predominantly Irish Catholic from the Northeastern part of the US, I received a small taste of what it is like to be the "minority." On day one at football camp I heard the first joke about having sex with my mother and sister, then farm animals and by the end of the day I was asked if I was part of the KKK. At first, I played all this stuff off as jokes, and even enjoyed the attention when the entire school had heard of the "hick" or "redneck." When I got back to my dorm one day and there was a large drawing of me dressed in the garb of a KKK member burning a cross I knew I had to do something. That was when it stopped being a joke and I tried to stop it. Of course, I was told to "lighten up", it was only a "joke" and I was taking myself too seriously. Then it got worse and more malicious. From this point forward, especially on the football team, I would rarely be called by my name, I was just "stupid hick," "dumb redneck" or "insert farm animal here"-f***er. Almost every time I walked into a room I would hear a chorus of, "Hey Redneck! Who won the big war! We kicked your inbred a$$3$ then and we'll do it again!"

While there were a few other southerners at the school, few wanted to get to close to me. One confided that they didn't want to become collateral damage. They were teased as well, but did not want to end up like me. It was only in my junior (3rd) year that some of my regular classmate and younger members of the football team started noticing and getting concerned by it. I had all but erased my southern accent, dressed impeccably and had shown that in fact the "stupid hick" was smarter than most of my peers, so all the teasing seemed absurd to them. So, they started asking, "Why do you tease him about this? The last thing that comes to mind is that he is a redneck." Most of the time they were told to "relax," "lighten up" or just "STFU, he is a stupid hick and we all know it." But the questions from others were what helped the most. They helped me, but it was what finally turned the tide and by the end of my senior year the comments and jokes had become pretty rare. Usually only when people were really drunk.

For me the lesson was not lost. When I tried to ask people to stop what had gone from teasing to abuse it only made matters worse. When the other Irish Catholics / rich Northeasterners started questioning it then the behavior began to change.

It also ignited a passion in me to help others, especially young men from cultures that are thought less of in our society. One of these young men, who is covered in gang tattoos, is now on his way to Columbia University to study economics. He likes to joke about how often he is asked if I am his lawyer.

Ok, I am done. Back to toy soldiers.


Really interesting response. I enjoyed reading it. Thankyou.

Jack
 
That's a heck of a story Larry. I'm sorry you had to go through that. College should be a fun time.

Brad
 
That's a heck of a story Larry. I'm sorry you had to go through that. College should be a fun time.

Brad

Thanks Brad. I did have lots of good times, as well. I also made a lot of really good friends. Overall, it was a really important learning experience academically and personally. I am glad I had people to help me keep it from ruining the experience, and instead made it even more valuable.
 
Interesting discussion on the use of the word Jap.

Zach mentioned it only came into use after WW2 and that the Japanese since then take it as derogatory. I guess those using it soon after WW2 were probably relating it to Japanese behaviour during the war. For many years after WW2 I would guess not too many conversations discussing Japanese would have been that complimentary towards them.

To sum up my thoughts. If talking about WW2 events then I have no problem with somebody referring to the soldiers from Japan as Japs. If that is derogatory to some then get over it as they were murderous scum who treated their enemies and often innocent civilians worse than animals. As far as I am concerned those Japs from WW2 deserve no respect even 70 years later.

The term Jap was used to describe a soldier from WW2 so as far as I am concerned political correctness does not apply as the concept of PC is a more modern concept.

However in the modern context I would never use the word Japs but Japanese. I don't blame the current Japanese for what happened in WW2.
 
Interesting and valuable discussion, but why not open a new thread for it? Why all this in a thread called "King & Country Dispatches --- June 2016"???
 
One last comment/story from me. My uncle was in Germany at the end of WWII and brought home a war bride. I remember me and the neighborhood kids teasing my cousin, calling him a kraut (like in the Combat TV show) and my aunt came out and told us kids in the kindest voice that he wasn't a kraut, but she was and we could call her a kraut. Well that incident stayed with me my whole life and when she passed way, I shed a big tear over that memory.
 
I too have been called names throughout high school and college from Kraut and Nazi to derogatory terms for Hispanics (I am half German and half El Salvadorian). I guess I am unique as none of it ever bothered me.

In my view names, words etc., can only hurt if you let them. Punches on the other hand, well those hurt whether you let them or not. Then again, the punches do have to land in order to hurt.
 
I completely agree with Jazz and Zach. The figure is in an historical context and is part of what we study here. I think it is perfectly reasonable, although I do cringe as I think of how the US treated its citizens of Japanese descent. Especially, after the example of many of their men fighting so bravely and effectively against our enemies.

I also find it interesting the reactions, since I raised it as a legitimate question. I did not scold anyone, I just asked, "Should we use this term?" We have to be able to ask this type of question, even on a toy soldier forum.

What I write below is not to compare our use of "Jap" to the experience I had at university, but to show why I think it is important to ask the question even if others don't like it. This will be my last comment on the issue. Not my job to control others, but it is to ask the question.

I am absolutely of the dominant culture in the US, and was raised by parents from the South primarily on military bases around the world and in the US. When I attended a university that was predominantly Irish Catholic from the Northeastern part of the US, I received a small taste of what it is like to be the "minority." On day one at football camp I heard the first joke about having sex with my mother and sister, then farm animals and by the end of the day I was asked if I was part of the KKK. At first, I played all this stuff off as jokes, and even enjoyed the attention when the entire school had heard of the "hick" or "redneck." When I got back to my dorm one day and there was a large drawing of me dressed in the garb of a KKK member burning a cross I knew I had to do something. That was when it stopped being a joke and I tried to stop it. Of course, I was told to "lighten up", it was only a "joke" and I was taking myself too seriously. Then it got worse and more malicious. From this point forward, especially on the football team, I would rarely be called by my name, I was just "stupid hick," "dumb redneck" or "insert farm animal here"-f***er. Almost every time I walked into a room I would hear a chorus of, "Hey Redneck! Who won the big war! We kicked your inbred a$$3$ then and we'll do it again!"

While there were a few other southerners at the school, few wanted to get to close to me. One confided that they didn't want to become collateral damage. They were teased as well, but did not want to end up like me. It was only in my junior (3rd) year that some of my regular classmate and younger members of the football team started noticing and getting concerned by it. I had all but erased my southern accent, dressed impeccably and had shown that in fact the "stupid hick" was smarter than most of my peers, so all the teasing seemed absurd to them. So, they started asking, "Why do you tease him about this? The last thing that comes to mind is that he is a redneck." Most of the time they were told to "relax," "lighten up" or just "STFU, he is a stupid hick and we all know it." But the questions from others were what helped the most. They helped me, but it was what finally turned the tide and by the end of my senior year the comments and jokes had become pretty rare. Usually only when people were really drunk.

For me the lesson was not lost. When I tried to ask people to stop what had gone from teasing to abuse it only made matters worse. When the other Irish Catholics / rich Northeasterners started questioning it then the behavior began to change.

It also ignited a passion in me to help others, especially young men from cultures that are thought less of in our society. One of these young men, who is covered in gang tattoos, is now on his way to Columbia University to study economics. He likes to joke about how often he is asked if I am his lawyer.

Ok, I am done. Back to toy soldiers.
Interesting my best mate moved to Australia when he was six with his family and he had the same kind of treatment has he was English :rolleyes2:
 

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