lah (3 Viewers)

[Capitolron]

Rob is right.

I represent KMW (Krauss-Maffeit Wegmann) - A German Armor Company - the current producers of the Leopard Tank (used by many NATO Countries) and in the past - WWII - producer of the TIGER TANK and many other heavey Armor Weapons for the Germany during the War.

These folks at KMW are great people and their company has a proud heritage of fine Armor, Trains and other Transportation Products. But, the specture of WWII still haunts them today - and it is a shame. The war has been over 62 years now - I think we all can move on.

It pains me to see individuals who had nothing to do with the War pay for the Sins of their past Countrymen.

This thread started off talking about about LAH figures and "do I collect them or dont I collect them" We then discussed what was the politics of the LAH & SS Troops collection - which is fine. But, now we have gone down the road of GERMAN BASHING. This needs to end.

Germany is a wonderful place and German people are wonderful. Lets just leave it at that - and take this darn thread off the forum.

Ron

 

[Vezzolf]

The lah figures should be a chilling reminder of the way a civilized culture can be led so far astray......how a warped ideaology can influence people......" ANY PEOPLE" to acts of hate and WAR ......man is basically sinful in nature and no one society is immune..........It was at this time in history that the evil nature in men was brought out in the open for all to see and unfortunatey experience( as in prior periods of history).....Genocide is still going on even today and in recent years in Africa as well as other parts of the world........Religious persecution in the middle east , China, etc. shows us how man has learned little from past mistakes.......Random Acts of Violence and lawlessness continue ...........ALL are guilty for ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory.....and the day of judgement will come by the Lord who alone will judge correctly........The bible says fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom........We best all take heed, repent, and ask God's forgiveness......He will not allow man's inhumanity to man to continue indefinitely........

 

[jazzeum]

As I and Rob said, we need to forgive but not forget. And Ron is right, German people are wonderful. I have been to Nuremberg and found them delightful. I'm going again in late May so I'm looking forward to that.

The sins of the World War II generation should not be passed onto the next generations and I don't see any bashing going of the present Germany. However, it has only been 62 years, not a very long time in the annals of human history, so I don't think these things will be soon forgotten.

These are tough issues but bear discussion and the tone has been one of civility so I don't see any need to delete this thread.

 

[Vezzolf]

As I and Rob said, we need to forgive but not forget. And Ron is right, German people are wonderful. I have been to Nuremberg and found them delightful. I'm going again in late May so I'm looking forward to that.

The sins of the World War II generation should not be passed onto the next generations and I don't see any bashing going of the present Germany. However, it has only been 62 years, not a very long time in the annals of human history, so I don't think these things will be soon forgotten.

These are tough issues but bear discussion and the tone has been one of civility so I don't see any need to delete this thread.

The value in not forgetting must be rooted in the fact that the existence of EVIL as a real entity is always lurking in the shadows of men's hearts.....We remember so as to be on guard for humanity and for each man to guard his own heart and conscience........We must not remember for the sake of blame or judgement of a society.......All mankind needs God's forgiveness.......for when we sin against man we have sinned against God Himself...in direct violation of his commandment to be ours brother's keeper....

 

[CannonFodder1971]

I think that Stanley Milgram's much-criticized (but not disproven) research on obedience to authority did show that ordinary people can do extraordinary things, and that crimes of obedience are as grave a threat to society as disobedience or subversion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

On the LAH series, as mentioned previously I'm happy that as a pre-WWII parade ground series it has moved from the blackshirted goosestepping elements and now encompasses Wehrmacht, police units, Hitler Jugend and so forth. Still though, I'd be worried that there will be a minority of collectors out there who will have them as some sort of glorification of the Hitler era.

 

[Vezzolf]

Just a note: and something to ponder.......I find it interesting that most of us on this forum have no problem collecting WWII German Tanks, Planes, Soldiers and weapons of war......associated with the Nazi party......for those who were victims of war they would find all of these equally offensive....I guess " MAKE-BELIEVE" war is non troubling.......Reality is another story.....When I was a child , I liked to play soldier.....watched "Combat" on television.......I guess the best excuse is that we are " history buffs" ????.....Or maybe it's because were not having family and friends killed or being shot at.......maybe the chilling facts of what WWII was about hits too close to reality with the LAH series.......anyway...food for thought......

 

[h.hammer]

The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.It has been said many times before and will be said many times again.Toy soldier collectors are not immune from these truths.If we as toy soldier collectors are in fact so interested in the history of the past "era",let us at least acknowledge that war is dedicated not to strategy,parades and different colored uniforms, but rather to death, destruction and the degradation of all those values which we espouse to trust and live for.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Just a note: and something to ponder.......I find it interesting that most of us on this forum have no problem collecting WWII German Tanks, Planes, Soldiers and weapons of war......associated with the Nazi party......for those who were victims of war they would find all of these equally offensive....I guess " MAKE-BELIEVE" war is non troubling.......Reality is another story.....When I was a child , I liked to play soldier.....watched "Combat" on television.......I guess the best excuse is that we are " history buffs" ????.....Or maybe it's because were not having family and friends killed or being shot at.......maybe the chilling facts of what WWII was about hits too close to reality with the LAH series.......anyway...food for thought......

Vezzolf,

As I have stated before, I collect German combat troops to provide the tough opposition for the soldiers whose memory I intend to honor with my collection, the Allied soldiers, sailors and airmen who risked their lives to preserve my life and my freedom. There is absolutely no place in my collection to commemmorate the parade ground soldiers whose only purpose can be to glorify the hateful memory of the Nazi party. That, for me, is the difference, the line drawn in the sand. I don't judge those who chose to collect (and make LAH K&C's most successful series) or produce (after all, Andy and Gordon are good friends of mine) these figures, I just won't have them in my house.

 

[jazzeum]

I had earlier posted a very troubling picture of an Einsatzgruppen unit killing people, while by standers looked on approvingly. It was suggested to me that someone looking at this thread might find it troubling if they had came by this thread just to read about toysoldiers. However, what are toysoldiers but symbols of what has happened in the past. In some cases they can be very powerful symbols, such as with WW II, due to it relative freshness in our minds. In other cases, such as with Barbarians or Romans, the symbols are not that powerful anymore. We shouldn't forget that they are symbols of what took plance and cannot be (or should not be, in my opinion) divorced from their historical underpinnings.

 

[jazzeum]

My god that sounds like a hard read. I might get myself a copy and as you say take it in small doses. I think the majority of Germans will remember. I get many German students and teachers at the museum come up to me and
say we do and we will remember, but we also want to reach out in friendship. I'm afraid there are many people in my country who will never forgive the Germans and a national resentment runs deep. I hope for the sake of all who gave their lives for us we can move forward, but never forget.

Rob

Rob,

It’s a subject I’ve long avoided for obvious reasons. The Holocaust is so immense and so tragic without the possibilities of any uplifting ending unlike another book I’m also reading now: Dunkirk Fight to the Last Man, where at least something positive comes out in the end.

I started to get over this reluctance a few months ago when I came across a movie on HBO called “Everything Is Illuminated.” It’s a movie about a young Jewish man who goes to the Ukraine to find the woman who helped save his grandfather in World War II and enlists a tour guide who specializes in helping Jews find about their relatives who died in the Holocaust. It’s a movie that is funny, full of pathos and tragic at the same time, sort of like a Fellini movie. At any rate, I picked up the book, which is a little different from the movie. The book is a little weird but interesting.

At the time I was reading Niall Ferguson’s “The War of the World,” also a fascinating book, so I didn’t get around to reading Everything Is Illuminated for awhile. At the same time as I had picked up that book, I had also picked up David Mendelsohn’s “The Lost: A Search for Six out of the Six Million.” This is a book about one man’s search to find out what happened to his Uncle and Aunt and their four daughters. While the rest of his family had migrated to America, his Uncle, who had also migrated, decided to go back to Bolechow, which was then in Eastern Poland (Galicia), now the Ukraine, and they were killed by the Nazi. How and where was something no one ever knew. However, he wanted to find out because apparently he reminded his family of his lost Uncle and he was the unofficial family historian, having been fascinated by his family history since he was a kid. As soon as I finished reading “Everything Is Illuminated,” I turned to this book and it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read. If you want to understand what it is to be Jewish, this book may help some. One of the principal points of the book is that the Holocaust is so big that you can’t understand it unless you can reduce it in size, to an account of certain particular people.

Anyway, to make a long story short, my curiosity was piqued after reading Mendelsohn’s book and I picked up the Gilbert book, not really knowing what to look for. However, this seemed to promise to give me the history I long avoided. It does that. Yes, it is gruesome and when I first started to read it, it just seemed to be loose stories – horrifying stories – put together. But the more you read, the more it pulls you into its web and the more engrossing it comes. I was discussing this thread with Harvey today and he has read this book and came to a similar conclusion: engrossing but not something you can (or probably want to) read straight through.

Regarding your last point, about the prior generating forgiving the German people, that is pretty common. My Mother, who lived through the war, hates them and when I went to Nuremberg a couple of years ago, she wished I hadn’t and showed distaste when I told her that I had been to the parade grounds. She and my son have had many a dinner debate about forgiving the Germans. I know some people who just won’t buy a German or a Japanese car. Time tends to heal all wounds, however, and as people from that generation pass on, these enmities should recede somewhat.

 

[Vezzolf]

Vezzolf,

As I have stated before, I collect German combat troops to provide the tough opposition for the soldiers whose memory I intend to honor with my collection, the Allied soldiers, sailors and airmen who risked their lives to preserve my life and my freedom. There is absolutely no place in my collection to commemmorate the parade ground soldiers whose only purpose can be to glorify the hateful memory of the Nazi party. That, for me, is the difference, the line drawn in the sand. I don't judge those who chose to collect (and make LAH K&C's most successful series) or produce (after all, Andy and Gordon are good friends of mine) these figures, I just won't have them in my house.

German combat troops were a significant part of the Nazi war machine that's a historical fact.......therefore I don't make too much of a "serious" distinction between the two.......If you choose to not collect LAH that's fine I neither criticize nor commend the choice.......The best way to honour those who fought to preserve freedom is to remember the price they paid and to preserve that freedom and not abuse it........There are many Americans and Europeans who honour the memory of their Veterans who do not collect toy soldiers at all let alone the tough opposition.......I personally collect toy soldiers as a novelty.....no more ; no less significance........

 

[Vezzolf]

The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.It has been said many times before and will be said many times again.Toy soldier collectors are not immune from these truths.If we as toy soldier collectors are in fact so interested in the history of the past "era",let us at least acknowledge that war is dedicated not to strategy,parades and different colored uniforms, but rather to death, destruction and the degradation of all those values which we espouse to trust and live for.

I could not agree more.......very true.....

 

[Louis Badolato]

German combat troops were a significant part of the Nazi war machine that's a historical fact.......therefore I don't make too much of a "serious" distinction between the two.......If you choose to not collect LAH that's fine I neither criticize nor commend the choice.......The best way to honour those who fought to preserve freedom is to remember the price they paid and to preserve that freedom and not abuse it........There are many Americans and Europeans who honour the memory of their Veterans who do not collect toy soldiers at all let alone the tough opposition.......I personally collect toy soldiers as a novelty.....no more ; no less significance........

You may chose to collect toy soldiers as a novelty, and that is fine. I, however, collect toy soldiers to commemorate the single most important momment in the last 500 years or so, the Second World War. Of course German Combat troops were by far the most significant part of the nazi war machine. The fact that the Allies were able to overcome that war machine is the reason we have a civilization today. Remembering that we were able to overcome far better equipment and commanders with numbers and courage is to me the best reason to collect toy soldiers. They are a three-dimensional reminder which draw the attention of anyone who sees them, for the good or for the bad.

 

[Rob]

You may chose to collect toy soldiers as a novelty, and that is fine. I, however, collect toy soldiers to commemorate the single most important momment in the last 500 years or so, the Second World War. Of course German Combat troops were by far the most significant part of the nazi war machine. The fact that the Allies were able to overcome that war machine is the reason we have a civilization today. Remembering that we were able to overcome far better equipment and commanders with numbers and courage is to me the best reason to collect toy soldiers. They are a three-dimensional reminder which draw the attention of anyone who sees them, for the good or for the bad.

Very well put Louis and that is excactly why i collect them.It is in a strange way a sort of celebration and memorial to how good triumphed over evil and gave us a better world to live in.And as you said against huge odds and difficulties.I like many others admire the machinery of war from all sides in WW2 as a real and intense interest.But whenever i hear people celebrating German engineering or the bravery of certain individuals i often think 'yeah fair point...but we still won!'.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Rob,

It’s a subject I’ve long avoided for obvious reasons. The Holocaust is so immense and so tragic without the possibilities of any uplifting ending unlike another book I’m also reading now: Dunkirk Fight to the Last Man, where at least something positive comes out in the end.

I started to get over this reluctance a few months ago when I came across a movie on HBO called “Everything Is Illuminated.” It’s a movie about a young Jewish man who goes to the Ukraine to find the woman who helped save his grandfather in World War II and enlists a tour guide who specializes in helping Jews find about their relatives who died in the Holocaust. It’s a movie that is funny, full of pathos and tragic at the same time, sort of like a Fellini movie. At any rate, I picked up the book, which is a little different from the movie. The book is a little weird but interesting.

At the time I was reading Niall Ferguson’s “The War of the World,” also a fascinating book, so I didn’t get around to reading Everything Is Illuminated for awhile. At the same time as I had picked up that book, I had also picked up David Mendelsohn’s “The Lost: A Search for Six out of the Six Million.” This is a book about one man’s search to find out what happened to his Uncle and Aunt and their four daughters. While the rest of his family had migrated to America, his Uncle, who had also migrated, decided to go back to Bolechow, which was then in Eastern Poland (Galicia), now the Ukraine, and they were killed by the Nazi. How and where was something no one ever knew. However, he wanted to find out because apparently he reminded his family of his lost Uncle and he was the unofficial family historian, having been fascinated by his family history since he was a kid. As soon as I finished reading “Everything Is Illuminated,” I turned to this book and it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read. If you want to understand what it is to be Jewish, this book may help some. One of the principal points of the book is that the Holocaust is so big that you can’t understand it unless you can reduce it in size, to an account of certain particular people.

Anyway, to make a long story short, my curiosity was piqued after reading Mendelsohn’s book and I picked up the Gilbert book, not really knowing what to look for. However, this seemed to promise to give me the history I long avoided. It does that. Yes, it is gruesome and when I first started to read it, it just seemed to be loose stories – horrifying stories – put together. But the more you read, the more it pulls you into its web and the more engrossing it comes. I was discussing this thread with Harvey today and he has read this book and came to a similar conclusion: engrossing but not something you can (or probably want to) read straight through.

Regarding your last point, about the prior generating forgiving the German people, that is pretty common. My Mother, who lived through the war, hates them and when I went to Nuremberg a couple of years ago, she wished I hadn’t and showed distaste when I told her that I had been to the parade grounds. She and my son have had many a dinner debate about forgiving the Germans. I know some people who just won’t buy a German or a Japanese car. Time tends to heal all wounds, however, and as people from that generation pass on, these enmities should recede somewhat.

Sorry Brad only just seen your post.Very interesting indeed.Bitter resentment can last for generations as i know only too well.And sometimes its fostered by ignorance and other factors.A while ago i had an Australian couple come up to me at the museum and say "Yeah,always hated you Brits since i saw Gibson's Gallipoli"!.Who on earth takes MEL GIBSONS view on anything as GOSPEL TRUTH!.

There are many people in this country who refuse to buy Japenese goods and i must say i have some sympathy for this position.It is the general feeling that Japan has been less willing to atone for its past than Germany has.I think though my country perhaps needs to move forward a bit quicker because there is still deep rooted hatred for the Axis countries,perhaps as you say Brad time will heal.For the sake of all i hope so.

Rob

 

[Eazy]

Here's a story that was in the news here in the UK and Germany last week about Bryan Ferry the lead singer of Roxy Music.
It's quite relevant I feel.


"Bryan Ferry has apologised "unreservedly" for praising Nazi iconography as "just amazing" and "really beautiful" in an interview with a German newspaper.

The former Roxy Music frontman had told Welt Am Sonntag newspaper: "The way that the Nazis staged themselves and presented themselves, my Lord. I'm talking about the films of Leni Riefenstahl and the buildings of Albert Speer and the mass marches and the flags - just fantastic. Really beautiful".

Later Ferry released a statement saying that he was "deeply upset" about the negative press reaction that the comments had triggered.

Ferry said: "I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused by my comments on Nazi iconography, which were solely made from an art history perspective".

"I, like every right-minded individual, find the Nazi regime, and all it stood for, evil and abhorrent." "

 

[Rob]

Yeah i read that too.What do you think James?.

Rob

 

[Eazy]

Morning Rob,

Yeah it's a tough one isn't it? Yep the Nuremburg rallies were amazing to look at but, when you stop and consider the deeper implications, then the glamour fades and you are left with something very twisted and ugly underneath.

 

[OzDigger]

Rob, I know what I think.

Such over-reaction to historical periods together with over the top political correctness is indicating a global shift towards a style of ultra conservatism which I'm sure any Nazi of WWII would be happy to see.

 

[OzDigger]

Sorry Brad only just seen your post.Very interesting indeed.Bitter resentment can last for generations as i know only too well.And sometimes its fostered by ignorance and other factors.A while ago i had an Australian couple come up to me at the museum and say "Yeah,always hated you Brits since i saw Gibson's Gallipoli"!.Who on earth takes MEL GIBSONS view on anything as GOSPEL TRUTH!.

Rob

Rob, I don't think it was Mel Gibson they were complaining about, more like the British officer(s) in the movie that ordered the Australian troops over the top to certain death. Of course the average Aussie would not know that more British died at Galliploi than Australians.