London (1 Viewer)

[Martin Tabony]

There was also the 2008 Republican Convention in Denver where people were peacefully protesting when police and unidentified people in suits began taking people into custody including press who clearly had passes. Some were roughed up and beaten as they were recording what was happening to people.

As I understand it from BBC, AP and other more reputable news outlets, this began as a protest with poverty and lack of opportunities, unemployment and rising costs of living.

Anything coming from a Ruppert Murdoch "news" outlet is extremely suspect as has been proven time and time again.

These riots didn't start as any kind of protest. As I have already said this started with the shooting of an armed man by the police. His family gathered peacefully in order to try and get the facts of what happened. This gathering was then hijacket by thugs! The family apealed for calm but were ignored. It was at this time that messages began to be posted saying such things as "come to ..... if you want a free TV. It also appears that gangs that were normaly rivals, worked together! It was only after it was over that anyone started to talk of poverty, lack of jobs etc.

Martin

 

[Mitch]

Thats exactly why its rather galling when excuses are made for these people and, when they cite democratic rights and legal principles that should be adhered for their benefit. Regardless of training in my book once you pick up a rock or a petrol bomb or, attack the police then, your fair game for the police and the courts afterwards.

There is always someone willing to excuse these actions and, constantly offer excuses and second and third and fourth chances. Anyone who wants to help themselves and improve their lot gets my support and admiration if they come from deprived backgrounds. the rest, well they deserve everything they get.
Mitch

These riots didn't start as any kind of protest. As I have already said this started with the shooting of an armed man by the police. His family gathered peacefully in order to try and get the facts of what happened. This gathering was then hijacket by thugs! The family apealed for calm but were ignored. It was at this time that messages began to be posted saying such things as "come to ..... if you want a free TV. It also appears that gangs that were normaly rivals, worked together! It was only after it was over that anyone started to talk of poverty, lack of jobs etc.

Martin

 

[Gideon]

These riots didn't start as any kind of protest. As I have already said this started with the shooting of an armed man by the police. His family gathered peacefully in order to try and get the facts of what happened. This gathering was then hijacket by thugs! The family apealed for calm but were ignored. It was at this time that messages began to be posted saying such things as "come to ..... if you want a free TV. It also appears that gangs that were normaly rivals, worked together! It was only after it was over that anyone started to talk of poverty, lack of jobs etc.

Martin

Hi Martin, I do understand this. But, these incidents become a symbol of a larger problem and larger issues in and between communities. They turn into flash points and many times the bad ones come out looking for an excuse to cause chaos. It happens with sports, protests, otherwise peaceful gatherings, etc.

A good example of this was the Crown Heights Riot when I was teenager. A black child was hit and killed by a Jewish driver. This created a flashpoint where black people in the neighborhood rioted and killed Yankel Rosenbaum (spelling). It was a terrible mess there and it put the city on edge.

This is a pretty good summation of what happened and its after effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

What is not discussed and what I had talked about with kids who lived in that neighborhood at the time was that a lot of black people living in the buildings owned by Jewish land lords were not well maintained (I lived in a few in that area a few years later and they definitely not well maintained at all) and they felt that their grievances were not being responded to by the land lords, by the city agencies and the court system. I can attest to this because of some of the necessary repairs needed in places I lived in which were not addressed until we had to go court with my rent money in escrow.

But I digress, my point is that these things can easily become flashpoints for larger community issues. What was an armed man doing walking around with a weapon in a place where weapons are not legal to carry? I can't answer that. What happened that caused him to be shot? I can't answer that. Why did people riot? Because of pent up anger and frustration. There is a collective energy among people which can spiral out of control given certain stimuli.

I do not excuse violent actions taken against innocent people but the cause of these things has to be understood and issues have to be addressed. That's all I'm saying. To the people looting, beating people and killing, let the law have its way with them.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Hi Martin, I do understand this. But, these incidents become a symbol of a larger problem and larger issues in and between communities. They turn into flash points and many times the bad ones come out looking for an excuse to cause chaos. It happens with sports, protests, otherwise peaceful gatherings, etc.

A good example of this was the Crown Heights Riot when I was teenager. A black child was hit and killed by a Jewish driver. This created a flashpoint where black people in the neighborhood rioted and killed Yankel Rosenbaum (spelling). It was a terrible mess there and it put the city on edge.

This is a pretty good summation of what happened and its after effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

What is not discussed and what I had talked about with kids who lived in that neighborhood at the time was that a lot of black people living in the buildings owned by Jewish land lords were not well maintained (I lived in a few in that area a few years later and they definitely not well maintained at all) and they felt that their grievances were not being responded to by the land lords, by the city agencies and the court system. I can attest to this because of some of the necessary repairs needed in places I lived in which were not addressed until we had to go court with my rent money in escrow.

But I digress, my point is that these things can easily become flashpoints for larger community issues. What was an armed man doing walking around with a weapon in a place where weapons are not legal to carry? I can't answer that. What happened that caused him to be shot? I can't answer that. Why did people riot? Because of pent up anger and frustration. There is a collective energy among people which can spiral out of control given certain stimuli.

I do not excuse violent actions taken against innocent people but the cause of these things has to be understood and issues have to be addressed. That's all I'm saying. To the people looting, beating people and killing, let the law have its way with them.

I don't for one moment believe that you would in any way support these violent actions. But I do think that you are looking at these things from an American point of view (obviously) What you don't seem to realise though is that we have a very generous welfare system in this country. We don't have people who live in rundown slums, because the state pays the rent and local taxes for an unemployed person. In this country if you are unemployed you are entitled to a basic income of £67.50 per week, with extra payed per child etc.. We also have a free National Heath Service from the cradle to the grave. Over the past thirty or so years, one of the worst things that has happened is that a situation has been created where by some people are better off on benefit rather than working! That is why the latest migration is happening from eastern europe, in order to do jobs that our own people won't! (by the way London in now the second largest Polish community, next to Warsaw!) Now these same work-shy people, turn around and say they were only rioting because they couldn't get a job !

Martin

 

[Scott]

If a country is going to import and /or maintain an underclass of people to do the dirty jobs, then keep them occupied, assimilate them into the mainstream, or keep them under control.

 

[Gideon]

If a country is going to import and /or maintain an underclass of people to do the dirty jobs, then keep them occupied, assimilate them into the mainstream, or keep them under control.

That is a very sad truth. Then they have children and all parents want better for their children than what they had no matter what background.

Who cares what the social welfare system provides? All people want meaningful work and a sense of fulfillment.

If this is a problem then lock your borders down for real. It has to be easier in the uk than it is in the US.

 

[damian]

One of the ironies of the EU thing is in the NHS. For years the NHS was partly run by colonial doctors (These came from India and Pakistan and from the Antipodes and SA and Canada) All these doctors generally spoke English and their training was similar to the British training as all the colonial medical schools had been established on the old Imperial system. So the culture of the training was similar. For example in most of the old Imperial countries surgeons are called Mr not Dr because when James IV of Scotland and Henry VIII of England formed the Edinburgh and English Colleges the physicians (internists) would not allow barbers and surgeons to be called doctors. Nowhere else in the world is this quaint tradition maintained. The GMC used to have a list of universities that were automatically recognized by them. The list included all the universities in SA, Australia, NZ, Malaysia, Hong Kong and a good number in India. Now with the EU these university graduates are not granted entry. They need to write an exam which I suppose is fair enough and also prove that they are competent in English. I spent a in 2001 morning at the Birtish consulate going through an English proficiency exam. I think I passed it. Now the EY grads who have a very different training and who cannot speak English are doing a lot of work in the UK. It is hard enough for a South African to translate a Glaswegian or Yorkshireman's accent so good luck to the guy from the Ukraine.
The world is a crazy mixd up place.

 

[Mitch]

Police chiefs are now looking at imposing curfews on areas affected by public disorder. Anyone out after set curfew will be liable for arrest. It kind of clears up the excuse I was accidentaly caught up in the public disoder if your aware there is a curfew. Good idea IMO in these situations
Mitch

 

[Rob]

I don't know if Curfews are the way to go myself.I think Bournemouth on the South Coast has worked very hard at pioneering strategems that have enabled the town to avoid such terrible scenes on their streets and retain a populace at ease with itself and without deep fissures that rise to the surface. On a physical level the Bournemouth authority must be congratulated for bringing the population together;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...breaks-Guinness-World-Record-Bournemouth.html

 

[Martin Tabony]

I don't know if Curfews are the way to go myself.I think Bournemouth on the South Coast has worked very hard at pioneering strategems that have enabled the town to avoid such terrible scenes on their streets and retain a populace at ease with itself and without deep fissures that rise to the surface. On a physical level the Bournemouth authority must be congratulated for bringing the population together;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...breaks-Guinness-World-Record-Bournemouth.html

That's better than water cannons. You'd have all the young lads running towards you, rather than away!

Martin

 

[Rob]

That's better than water cannons. You'd have all the young lads running towards you, rather than away!

Martin

^&grin

Martin, as you know its been so grim over here of late, with murder,arson,looting, people losing their homes that I just thought a little something to put a smile on our faces.Even in bad times the Summer goes on at the beach!:smile2:{bravo}}

Rob

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Scientific experiments have shown that if a colony of rats become over crowded they commence fighting among themselves and we have a similar effect here.

Hmmm I'd be curious to see such a study and question whether it exists. I've owned three pet rats in the past, which are all genetically descended from the same bunch they get lab rats from. In short, they're the most docile animals in the world (and as smart as dogs!). In the pet store I've watched a giant lump of maybe 20 rats all sleeping on top of each other. When the ones in the middle got too hot they move to the outside and others took their place.

Maybe the rats would fight if they were starved? But anyone who would conduct an experiment like that is worse than the rioting thugs IMO.

Not to deny that overcrowding is a problem (in animal or human communities) by any stretch. If you want a better example among rodents, here in North America one can sometimes catch chipmunks battling it out in the backyard or when camping. But that's because chipmunks are highly territorial, whereas (domesticated) rats are by and large social animals.

I'm just trying to set the record straight about rats because they're maligned and misunderstood by many people based on third hand heresy. Anytime people seek an example of some sort of undesirable human behavior they throw out the word "rat" the same way they used to throw out various false racial epithets.

There, I just tied this thread to the exotic pet one - and also explained why I have a little critter down below as a pet avatar, if anyone ever cared.

 

[Mitch]

Just saw some arrest figures and jail sentences dished out to date!!!!!! Very nice to know a few won't be doing it for a good while. Well done everyone involved in arresting and imprisoning these people.
Mitch

 

[Scott]

I wonder if the security in gated communities actually live in the gated community.

 

[Scott]

Just saw some arrest figures and jail sentences dished out to date!!!!!! Very nice to know a few won't be doing it for a good while. Well done everyone involved in arresting and imprisoning these people.
Mitch

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

Right you are Mitch.

 

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

This thread has proven to be incredibly interesting. The original topic was the recent and tragic series of events in London. At this point, we have managed to mention Nazi Germany, Czarist Russia, the Pol Pot, the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, the quality of teachers, the significance, skill, and purpose of politicians, the role of contemporary government, the banking industry, and a host of other controversial observations.

Please exercise caution in what you choose to post. If the discussion becomes too heated, it may be necessary to close this thread.

Thanks!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Mitch]

Scott..

Apologies for mis reading your post about Bader's comment
Mitch

 

[Shannon Reuss]

Sheesh people. Just read this thread which was dripping with political and social/political commentary and spent some time deleting the most political posts. This is a toy soldier forum, not a political/social issues forum. There are plenty of forums focusing on politics and picking apart your local government point by point as to how they're 'doing it wrong.' This is not that forum. If others can tell who your favorite political party is by reading your post--it's political. Posting about current events such as who's rioting, your opinion as to why and how the government should best deal with it is not a slippery slope to a political discussion it's a ledge on the Grand Canyon which should be approached with extreme caution if at all.
Please keep your focus on the toy soldier hobby and not on politics when posting on the Treefrog forum respecting the rules and those who come here to get away from the news and hotbed issues to relax and enjoy their hobby.
Thank you,

 

[Scott]

Sheesh people. Just read this thread which was dripping with political and social/political commentary and spent some time deleting the most political posts. This is a toy soldier forum, not a political/social issues forum. There are plenty of forums focusing on politics and picking apart your local government point by point as to how they're 'doing it wrong.' This is not that forum. If others can tell who your favorite political party is by reading your post--it's political. Posting about current events such as who's rioting, your opinion as to why and how the government should best deal with it is not a slippery slope to a political discussion it's a ledge on the Grand Canyon which should be approached with extreme caution if at all.
Please keep your focus on the toy soldier hobby and not on politics when posting on the Treefrog forum respecting the rules and those who come here to get away from the news and hotbed issues to relax and enjoy their hobby.
Thank you,

I think the world would be much happier collecting toy soldiers. For men, a job and a girlfrield and toy soldiers. No time to riot. That's my solution.

 

[Mitch]

I know you don't like politics in the forum but, this was not really heated and rather polite in the content surrounding the riots which, in the UK were not political. You mention talking toy soldiers but, is this not the part of the forum where you have allowed an ''off topic'' area for disussion and narrative. What is the point in having this if you, by your post seem to be telling members what to discuss in it?? Just a polite inquiry
Mitch

Sheesh people. Just read this thread which was dripping with political and social/political commentary and spent some time deleting the most political posts. This is a toy soldier forum, not a political/social issues forum. There are plenty of forums focusing on politics and picking apart your local government point by point as to how they're 'doing it wrong.' This is not that forum. If others can tell who your favorite political party is by reading your post--it's political. Posting about current events such as who's rioting, your opinion as to why and how the government should best deal with it is not a slippery slope to a political discussion it's a ledge on the Grand Canyon which should be approached with extreme caution if at all.
Please keep your focus on the toy soldier hobby and not on politics when posting on the Treefrog forum respecting the rules and those who come here to get away from the news and hotbed issues to relax and enjoy their hobby.
Thank you,