London (2 Viewers)

[trooper]

As I understand it, the first person who died in this affair was shot by the police. Since a major catalyst of these riots was (perceived) police corruption and abuse, I, like Damian, fail to see how encouraging police to crack down even harder on these depressed communities will achieve anything except lead to a further vicious cycle of violence on both sides not to mention further accelerate the slide into a 1984 big brother police state which harms the privacy and freedoms of law abiding citizens more than it does criminals. According to this article, five years ago there was already 1 CCTV for every 14 British citizens: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6108496.stm.

After witnessing the brutal police crackdown on peaceful political protesters in Toronto in 2010, I wonder if nonviolent political protest will be the next thing to be outlawed out of fears it could spiral into a riot? And at that point will any trace of our Western democracy remain?

I simply caution that media inflated panic over "threats" often lead to the assigning of undemocratic powers to those who will consciously or unconsciously abuse them - The Patriot Act, for example.

Again, the root issue comes back to why so many young people have suddenly turned into "opportunistic thugs" as you and Mr. Cameron like to call them. I wonder if their pursuit of material consumption at the expense of society could have anything to do with the like-for-like example set by our role models in the upper echelons of society? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...r-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

To me, these are two sides of the same coin, especially because the thievery of the one has necessitated the austerity cuts in social spending that help motivate the thievery of the other. But I wonder why our "justice" system is totally missing in action when it comes to holding the bankers and other corporate thieves accountable? We know their names, we know their faces, yet they remain untouchables, above the law.

I agree with a lot of the above, however there are a few points that need clarification. First, the man shot by the police was armed with a loaded weapon, not an "innocent". Secondly many of those arrested come from a far from deprived life. One was a millionaires daughter, another a care assistant, university students etc. Thirdly the attitude of some of the rioters expressed and caught on TV "we can do what we want", "let's get some of that". In court one of them broke down crying that this sentence would mean him losing his job and possibly his home, this from someone who had been in a mob torching buisnesses with flats above leaving the occupants with nothing but the clothes they stood up in. I agree that the example set by the bankers and politicians in the recent expenses scandle set a bad example, but I think your fears of non violent protest being outlawed are groundless. But when protest escalates into violence and criminality then the protesters need to be taught that lawlessness comes with a price. In the words of the old time crooks, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Trooper

 

[Martin Tabony]

As much as I agree with you about the bankers etc. You don't seem to understand what started this latest "riot". It did begin with a peaceful vigil but was hijacked by the usual rent -a - mob that likes to call themselves anarchists. To my mind these "anarchists" were there simply as an excuse to attack the police but if you see something more deep seated so be it. THEN while all the trouble had started the looters turned up. Not to protest or make some kind of political point to "the man". No they were there for only one reason, to steal the hard earned property of others. The damage caused wasn't to big multinational companies or banks. It was to small family businesses like the furniture shop that has been run by the same family for five generations. Or the houses that were set alight while WORKING CLASS people were just trying to keep out of the trouble but had to jump for their lives! The shops that were chosen were the ones with the latest trainers and were out of reach of the police.
I personally believe that this is all the result of fourty years of social experimenting by those that think they know better than anyone else. In the 60s they demolished terraced housing in most cities and moved the population into high rise blocks, in the process they destroyed any sence of comunity. In the the same decade they began to experiment with an education system that had worked for a hundred years. Instead of the "3 rs" we were taught to read using ITA (only to have to learn to read again at the age of eight) They then decided that everyone is the same so you couldn't possibly have grammar schools, of course they forgot that not everyone wants to work in an officer or go to university. Some people want to be chippies and sparks!
As to a "multiculteral society" if they'd bothered to look at the history of this country they would have seen that we have always absorbed multicultures. All they did was point out the differences in people rather than show the similarities. Now we have the authorities terrified of being accused of "racism"
The Human Rights Act has been misused since it's introduction, yet not once has there been talk of a "Human Respossibilities Act".

Martin

 

[Mitch]

I love that... The Human responsibilities act If ever there was a need for a piece of legislation like that!!!!
Mitch

As much as I agree with you about the bankers etc. You don't seem to understand what started this latest "riot". It did begin with a peaceful vigil but was hijacked by the usual rent -a - mob that likes to call themselves anarchists. To my mind these "anarchists" were there simply as an excuse to attack the police but if you see something more deep seated so be it. THEN while all the trouble had started the looters turned up. Not to protest or make some kind of political point to "the man". No they were there for only one reason, to steal the hard earned property of others. The damage caused wasn't to big multinational companies or banks. It was to small family businesses like the furniture shop that has been run by the same family for five generations. Or the houses that were set alight while WORKING CLASS people were just trying to keep out of the trouble but had to jump for their lives! The shops that were chosen were the ones with the latest trainers and were out of reach of the police.
I personally believe that this is all the result of fourty years of social experimenting by those that think they know better than anyone else. In the 60s they demolished terraced housing in most cities and moved the population into high rise blocks, in the process they destroyed any sence of comunity. In the the same decade they began to experiment with an education system that had worked for a hundred years. Instead of the "3 rs" we were taught to read using ITA (only to have to learn to read again at the age of eight) They then decided that everyone is the same so you couldn't possibly have grammar schools, of course they forgot that not everyone wants to work in an officer or go to university. Some people want to be chippies and sparks!
As to a "multiculteral society" if they'd bothered to look at the history of this country they would have seen that we have always absorbed multicultures. All they did was point out the differences in people rather than show the similarities. Now we have the authorities terrified of being accused of "racism"
The Human Rights Act has been misused since it's introduction, yet not once has there been talk of a "Human Respossibilities Act".

Martin

 

[damian]

Lets hope that you or Damian never have your homes burnt down family members killed or seriously injured or your business destroyed by these depressed communities. I fully support CCTV and all it represents as I will never steal cars burn property or murder or attack innocent people in the streets. Its down to this that many are now serving jail sentences and will be in the future for serious criminal activity. The facts about what the guy was doing in the situation to be shot are not yet fully known but, that is still absolutely no excuse for any community to do what was done and, fortunately we are seeing a robust and correct IMO response and long may it continue.

Rob...

It now stands at over 2,000 arrested and many more to come


Mitch

Just to point out I have lived through more of these sort of things than many others.
So I would not class myself as an armchair critic.
As to you feeling that you have been singled out I think that is not true.
As an aside you are very forthright in your posts which is good but if you are going to be forthright you have to expect that those who do not agree with you are going to respond.
The kick butt approach may not solve your problems. Even the LAPD chief has said that and Cameron is asking him.

 

[Gideon]

Message to all the rioters ........... u wanna be big men and fight to the death , well get your sorry little arses on the next plane to Afghanistan and stand alongside real men , they're called soldiers and they are fighting a war unlike you bunch of pathetic wastes of space and show your faces !!!!

Martin

With all due respect, they feel they are fighting a war. And they might just be. Sometimes you have to resort to some pretty extreme things in order to win equality, opportunity and the right to the pursuit of happiness.

Saying they should be sent to a foreign land doesn't change their circumstances at home.

I don't agree with the destruction, looting, and killing of innocent people. That is un-called for and simply not going to further their cause. Sadly, so many of these things lose focus and innocent people feel the brunt of a communities/groups outrage. And, typically, that outrage is justified.

 

[Rob]

Guys, a huge point is either being misunderstood or ignored here. EVEN IF there was a grievance with the Police shooting an armed man in London (still no excuse in my view) there was no justification whatever for rioting in Manchester,Salford and Birmingham. The chief of Police of Manchester has said there was no grievance or grudge or social depravation behind these riots, they were pure COPYCAT riots organized on social networking sites designed to maximize anarchy on the streets enabling as much robbery and financial gain as possible. Police are saying there is strong evidence that known criminal gangs, normally at war with each other, joined forces to help start the riots and exploit the chaos to maximum advantage.Its no coincidence that so many arrested are known to the Police. Please do not believe these were ' social ' riots, they simply were not.

Millionaires children, school teachers, professional people were all involved. It was a potent mix of opportunistic greed, a propensity to violence at the least reason (I'm afraid many of my countrymen are far too quick to violence and always have been,our football History is littered with it) and a lack of basic compassion,feeling or consideration for anyone but themselves.

Two teenage Girls were asked why they were part of the riot, the answer ' Well its the Tories...or somebodys fault', out of the mouths of babes as it were, they didn't know whose fault it was but it wasn't their fault.

No , I'm afraid there is no justifiable excuse. These people saw the chance of gain and joined a mob intent on destruction. I think anyone who sets fire to a dwelling with people inside and therefore tries to incinerate them deserves to be shot dead on the street.

Rob

 

[Gideon]

No , I'm afraid there is no justifiable excuse. These people saw the chance of gain and joined a mob intent on destruction. I think anyone who sets fire to a dwelling with people inside and therefore tries to incinerate them deserves to be shot dead on the street.

Rob

I tend to agree. These things can bring out the kind of people who have a propensity towards mob rule and violence in general.

But, there is an issue to be dealt with. One of the protestors in the initial few nights said last time this happened "they gave us a swimming pool" but didn't address the real issues going on in the poor communities.

What things like this can do is make people gun shy about organizing and hands over tremendous power to the government to restrain peoples right to peaceably gather and protest.

Thinking back on the LAPD riots, it wasn't that Rodney King was guilty or not (tho he was really guilty), it was a flashpoint of how the LAPD treated minorities. And the OJ Simpson case solidified the LAPD's treatment of minorities in that city and he walked away.

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Thing is nearly every large scale disorder in the capital has a knock on effect around the country to some extent it always happens. Its rather sad to here such things like they feel they are at war when it has little to do with deprivation. I feel rather sorry for the police officer who has to live with the actions of taking someones life but, its easy to sit and say what he should or should not have done when you have a split second to decide if your own life your colleagues or the public are at risk for a nutter with absolute no regard for anyone. I have just watched a sky presentation on the news channel speaking to four who took part allowing them to speak and hide their faces bragging about watching a new plasma TV in his bedroom and playing on his new Blackberry!!!!
Mitch

Guys, a huge point is either being misunderstood or ignored here. EVEN IF there was a grievance with the Police shooting an armed man in London (still no excuse in my view) there was no justification whatever for rioting in Manchester,Salford and Birmingham. The chief of Police of Manchester has said there was no grievance or grudge or social depravation behind these riots, they were pure COPYCAT riots organized on social networking sites designed to maximize anarchy on the streets enabling as much robbery and financial gain as possible. Police are saying there is strong evidence that known criminal gangs, normally at war with each other, joined forces to help start the riots and exploit the chaos to maximum advantage.Its no coincidence that so many arrested are known to the Police. Please do not believe these were ' social ' riots, they simply were not.

Millionaires children, school teachers, professional people were all involved. It was a potent mix of opportunistic greed, a propensity to violence at the least reason (I'm afraid many of my countrymen are far too quick to violence and always have been,our football History is littered with it) and a lack of basic compassion,feeling or consideration for anyone but themselves.

Two teenage Girls were asked why they were part of the riot, the answer ' Well its the Tories...or somebodys fault', out of the mouths of babes as it were, they didn't know whose fault it was but it wasn't their fault.

No , I'm afraid there is no justifiable excuse. These people saw the chance of gain and joined a mob intent on destruction. I think anyone who sets fire to a dwelling with people inside and therefore tries to incinerate them deserves to be shot dead on the street.

Rob

 

[Scott]

".....I have just watched a sky presentation on the news channel speaking to four who took part allowing them to speak and hide their faces bragging about watching a new plasma TV in his bedroom and playing on his new Blackberry!!!!...."

Murdoch's Sky News?

 

[trooper]

I think that one of the main problems with this discussion is the our American friends are relating to their own experiences in the US where the root causes of many of the riots there do stem from genuine deprivation. The London riots, and those in other cities were not fomented by deprivation but were motivated by sheer greed and opportunism.If they had been starving and had raided food stores there might have been some explanation but the wholesale looting of electrical goods, clothing stores and similar establishments with the whole operation being co-ordinated by Facebook and Twitter show that it was down to sheer vandalism for the sake of personal gain. The right to peacefully march and protest will not be in jeopardy. These ocassions are usually organised with the police being informed and providing escorts. Rioting will only bring extreme measures, possibly resulting in the Riot Act being read, curfews being imposed and possibly Martial Law being imposed with the Armed Services being called to give Aid to the Civil Power. Trooper

 

[The Military Workshop]

Going back to the original post by Damian and his comment upon music.

One of the Royal Hong Kong Police Tactical Unit Company Commanders made a bit of a name for himself
when leading his 13 vehicle convoy on an emergency turnout to a disturbance in the Division where he was formerly the commander.

He had Ride of the Valkyries blaring out of his command vehicle loudspeaker system as he got near to the
disturbance.

Lucky he did not have any Huey Gun ships with napalm under his command.

Regards
Brett

 

[Mitch]

Now, I would have liked dearly to see that. I once saw a TSG unit on a match day after lots of trouble drive past with the back door open and one of the lads inside has a glove puppet of sooty (kids famous puppet and tv series in the UK) not similar for stage but, did make me laugh and raised a few comment from passers by
Mitch

Going back to the original post by Damian and his comment upon music.

One of the Royal Hong Kong Police Tactical Unit Company Commanders made a bit of a name for himself
when leading his 13 vehicle convoy on an emergency turnout to a disturbance in the Division where he was formerly the commander.

He had Ride of the Valkyries blaring out of his command vehicle loudspeaker system as he got near to the
disturbance.

Lucky he did not have any Huey Gun ships with napalm under his command.

Regards
Brett

 

[King & Country]

Re: London Riots

Hi Guys,

After watching the mayhem and madness on TV and then reading many of the reports since I find myself in complete agreement with the vast majority of the views expressed by Mitch, Rob, Trooper and many, many others.

These riots had little to do with genuine poverty and deprivation… they had a lot to do with greed, criminality and lack of respect for any kind of authority… be it police, parents (such as they are), community or education.

Although I have now lived and worked overseas for almost 35 years I love Britain and what the British have given to the world. I love our history and culture and I love the unique blend of English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish peoples that once made Britain great. I despair of the political correctness, the gutless politicians (of all parties) who have wrecked our legal system… our education… and the social cohesion of a once proud and noble land.

But it’s never too late to change and even though it is “five minutes to midnight” the country can still be saved. In 1940 we had Winston Churchill… Perhaps today or tomorrow we might, I hope, find another…

In the meantime let the punishment fit the crimes!
Sincerely,
Andy. C

 

[Scott]

Trooper, there have been numerous cases of riots in the US that turned to mere looting of goods. Los Angeles back in the 1960s and just after the murder of Martin Luther King. Also several cases of power black outs in cities come to mind.

The stranger rioting incidents that don't involve looting or protests are sports riots. Canada just had one and one in Boston in 2005 where a woman was killed with a "non-lethal" bullet.

The US did suffer instances of actual peaceful protests being put down with dogs, horsemen and fire hoses. The Kent State and Jackson State incidents in 1970 were case of actual violent protesting put down by inexperienced National Guard that killed people not even involved in the riot. The Chicago police lost control in 1968 in dealing with protesters and disgraced themselves. In that case police and troops actually outnumbered the protesters 2 to 1 and they still lost control.

The cases of people looting for survival were in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina where white people were observed "finding" while black people were observed "looting."

 

[Scott]

I have to add the concert at Concord Bridge back in 1975 that I attended. The President of the US was there for a Bicentennial event. The law enforcement presence was so thick that there were was a Coast Guard boat on the Concord river and aircraft overhead. The law enforce was very professional and VERY visible. A moment where mounted police cleared spectators from Concord Bridge ("..the rude bridge that arched the flood..") was impressive.

 

[Scott]

Andy, don't go the "Man on the white horse" route. That never ends well.

 

[Rutledge]

Trooper, there have been numerous cases of riots in the US that turned to mere looting of goods. Los Angeles back in the 1960s and just after the murder of Martin Luther King. Also several cases of power black outs in cities come to mind.

The stranger rioting incidents that don't involve looting or protests are sports riots. Canada just had one and one in Boston in 2005 where a woman was killed with a "non-lethal" bullet.

The US did suffer instances of actual peaceful protests being put down with dogs, horsemen and fire hoses. The Kent State and Jackson State incidents in 1970 were case of actual violent protesting put down by inexperienced National Guard that killed people not even involved in the riot. The Chicago police lost control in 1968 in dealing with
protesters and disgraced themselves. In that case police and troops actually outnumbered the protesters 2 to 1 and they still lost control.

The cases of people looting for survival were in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina where white people were observed "finding" while black people were observed "looting."
]

Please moderators, can we do without this political posturing garbage? It has no relation to the thread topic or toy soldiers. The purpose is purely to inflame. Enough already with the advocation of failed hippie culture.

 

[Scott]

Please moderators, can we do without this political posturing garbage? It has no relation to the thread topic or toy soldiers. The purpose is purely to inflame. Enough already with the advocation of failed hippie culture.

Come on Rut. Add something to the conversation. This IS history as there are facts, dates, and some documentation and it's in responce to Trooper's post.

 

[Gideon]

There was also the 2008 Republican Convention in Denver where people were peacefully protesting when police and unidentified people in suits began taking people into custody including press who clearly had passes. Some were roughed up and beaten as they were recording what was happening to people.

As I understand it from BBC, AP and other more reputable news outlets, this began as a protest with poverty and lack of opportunities, unemployment and rising costs of living.

Anything coming from a Ruppert Murdoch "news" outlet is extremely suspect as has been proven time and time again.

 

[Gideon]

Don't worry when certain people say certain things. It's only meant to stir the pot and get people yelling at each other. I'm not taking the bait nor should anybody else.

I think this conversation can easily continue in a civilized tone. I really hope the moderators do not pull it down because of the ignorant posts of just one person. If anything, just delete those posts and leave us be to speak with each other in peace.