London (3 Viewers)

[Mitch]

I certainly do as 99.9% of the people who were involved were either to thick to understand basic economics and the things that are affecting society or, do not contribute in any way shape or form to productivity in society. I am bored beyond imagination of hearing excuses for people who break the law and blame it on everything else but where the problem lies... Themselves.

Look back at history and see what decent people do when times get tough they get off their behinds and do any work to make ends meet. Only a small amount of people decide to become criminal and act in that manner rather than acting decently and trying to make their lives better rather than playing for sympathy and hand outs.

We live in a society that wants wants wants and expects everything for nothing in return and, blame factors that have either nothing to do with what they do or, act as a great excuse for what is blatent criminal behaviour for the sake. Bleeding hearts who will never come close to the destruction or mayhem these people cause are always the ones to scream about their rights and, its about time we took the stand and said enough and, thats whats happening in the UK.

Dissafected youth is always the cry it gives me the trots!!! Here is the underlying reason behind the riots.... Feckless lazy people who have little respect for themselves other people, their property, and the rule of law and believe they have the right to take rather than give or contribute.

Making excuses will always allow criminals to (for thats what they are) to take the easy option. I venture you would not be as liberal and out of touch if you had lost your loved ones property business home or stood taking rocks and petrol bombs at you because of the poor hard done underclasses revolting!!!!!!!

I would also draw your attention to the facts that are coming through about how many people had mortgages and jobs and were supposedly normal people who have been convicted of public order or criminal damage during this disorder. No excuses plain and simple. No sympathy either apart from that given to those affected by these scumbags actions
Mitch



Do you think that thousands of these people losing their jobs, homes and money is actually going to reduce their propensity to riot and commit crimes in the future? Because that should be the objective, should it not? In this thread I read much discussion of superficial bandaid police tactics and little discussion of true underlying causes for why so many young people in our Western societies are now a) unemployed b) angry c) morally nihilistic d) without hope for the future.[/QUOTE]

 

[damian]

Our governments seem to have no problem automatically siding with the rioters in Egypt, Libya, Syria, and every other Middle Eastern, Asian and otherwise foreign country, where we assume the rioters are victims who have rightful grievances and that the riots are symptoms of fundamental problems with the social/economic/political order of those countries. Should we abandon all critical thought and analysis when it comes to examining riots in Western capitalist countries?

Welcome back Conrad. We have missed you for the last few years. Good to see you posting again.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Well said Mitch.

 

[Rob]

You bet. I have absolutely no sympathy for these people whatever. It is fast becoming clear that the majority of them were simple opportunistic thugs bent on enriching themselves at the expense of others. You did not mention the five people who died, the forty five who've been made homeless and the many who've lost their jobs. Do you think they are worried about sending them to prison means they may do it again, I think not. These people need to be shown we will not stand for violence, arson and looting on our streets, all other concerns are secondary. Lots of people want more in life, but they don't go out on the streets and beat someone to death or drive a car into a crowd of people etc etc. Of course there are social problems and they need to be addressed, but that is not an excuse for what we've seen over here. It's more a case of ' I really want the latest whatever...so let's torch this place'

My congratulations to the judges who are dishing out some proper sentences at last.

Rob

You take pleasure in this?

Do you think that thousands of these people losing their jobs, homes and money is actually going to reduce their propensity to riot and commit crimes in the future? Because that should be the objective, should it not? In this thread I read much discussion of superficial bandaid police tactics and little discussion of true underlying causes for why so many young people in our Western societies are now a) unemployed b) angry c) morally nihilistic d) without hope for the future.

 

[Rob]

Excellent post Mitch.

Rob

I certainly do as 99.9% of the people who were involved were either to thick to understand basic economics and the things that are affecting society or, do not contribute in any way shape or form to productivity in society. I am bored beyond imagination of hearing excuses for people who break the law and blame it on everything else but where the problem lies... Themselves.

Look back at history and see what decent people do when times get tough they get off their behinds and do any work to make ends meet. Only a small amount of people decide to become criminal and act in that manner rather than acting decently and trying to make their lives better rather than playing for sympathy and hand outs.

We live in a society that wants wants wants and expects everything for nothing in return and, blame factors that have either nothing to do with what they do or, act as a great excuse for what is blatent criminal behaviour for the sake. Bleeding hearts who will never come close to the destruction or mayhem these people cause are always the ones to scream about their rights and, its about time we took the stand and said enough and, thats whats happening in the UK.

Dissafected youth is always the cry it gives me the trots!!! Here is the underlying reason behind the riots.... Feckless lazy people who have little respect for themselves other people, their property, and the rule of law and believe they have the right to take rather than give or contribute.

Making excuses will always allow criminals to (for thats what they are) to take the easy option. I venture you would not be as liberal and out of touch if you had lost your loved ones property business home or stood taking rocks and petrol bombs at you because of the poor hard done underclasses revolting!!!!!!!

I would also draw your attention to the facts that are coming through about how many people had mortgages and jobs and were supposedly normal people who have been convicted of public order or criminal damage during this disorder. No excuses plain and simple. No sympathy either apart from that given to those affected by these scumbags actions
Mitch



Do you think that thousands of these people losing their jobs, homes and money is actually going to reduce their propensity to riot and commit crimes in the future? Because that should be the objective, should it not? In this thread I read much discussion of superficial bandaid police tactics and little discussion of true underlying causes for why so many young people in our Western societies are now a) unemployed b) angry c) morally nihilistic d) without hope for the future.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Martin Tabony]

One of the scumbags said he had attacked a shop because they didn't reply to an e-mailed job application! Not exactly on the same level as middle eastern rioters trying to establish democracy is it!

Martin

 

[damian]

Guys I don't think we should all jump on Conrad. His post does raise a number of valid concerns about the behavior of our western governments. Nobody condones violent protests and looting but as we all know cracking down with military style force will not really solve any problems. In the hurly burly of current events it is often difficult to understand what is transpiring and making basic historical mistakes can result in long term problems. To all those calling for the military to be unleashed may I draw attention to the situation in Northern Ireland where a military response (Bloody Sunday Falls Road Curfew etc) merely served to turn a localized problem into a thrity year bitter geurilla war. I have also lived through several epsiodes of violent protest and civil unrest and the law and order approach did not necessarliy help things. I don't have any answers and I don't know any rioters but I would just say we need to allow Conrad his platform and not dismiss what he says out of hand.

 

[Rob]

And here's me thinking all these looters were from poor deprived backgrounds Martin, but I'm sure the blackberry /iPhone/ iPad he emailed from was a very cheap one, the poor little lamb!

Rob

One of the scumbags said he had attacked a shop because they didn't reply to an e-mailed job application! Not exactly on the same level as middle eastern rioters trying to establish democracy is it!

Martin

Guys I don't think we should all jump on Conrad. His post does raise a number of valid concerns about the behavior of our western governments. Nobody condones violent protests and looting but as we all know cracking down with military style force will not really solve any problems. In the hurly burly of current events it is often difficult to understand what is transpiring and making basic historical mistakes can result in long term problems. To all those calling for the military to be unleashed may I draw attention to the situation in Northern Ireland where a military response (Bloody Sunday Falls Road Curfew etc) merely served to turn a localized problem into a thrity year bitter geurilla war. I have also lived through several epsiodes of violent protest and civil unrest and the law and order approach did not necessarliy help things. I don't have any answers and I don't know any rioters but I would just say we need to allow Conrad his platform and not dismiss what he says out of hand.

 

[Rob]

I'm not jumping on Conrad at all Damian, he asked me if I got pleasure in seeing these looting, murdering, arsonists get sent to prison, to which I replied yes, a great deal indeed. It's a pretty popular feeling over here right now I can tell you, especially in Birmingham where three young men who were defending their property were mown down by a car. I wonder what social problems are an excuse when someone with quite deliberate purpose drives a car into a crowd of people? Or maybe just maybe he was just a violent thug on a bender of crime and violence.

Rob

Guys I don't think we should all jump on Conrad. His post does raise a number of valid concerns about the behavior of our western governments. Nobody condones violent protests and looting but as we all know cracking down with military style force will not really solve any problems. In the hurly burly of current events it is often difficult to understand what is transpiring and making basic historical mistakes can result in long term problems. To all those calling for the military to be unleashed may I draw attention to the situation in Northern Ireland where a military response (Bloody Sunday Falls Road Curfew etc) merely served to turn a localized problem into a thrity year bitter geurilla war. I have also lived through several epsiodes of violent protest and civil unrest and the law and order approach did not necessarliy help things. I don't have any answers and I don't know any rioters but I would just say we need to allow Conrad his platform and not dismiss what he says out of hand.

 

[Mitch]

Certainly must say I am also not jumping all over any poster. I have to say I think on a forum this is all we can do offer an opinion and have others accept or dismiss it. Its just that many in my country who have to live with and have these acts done to their property and families are a bit sick of excuses for these symbols of a wonderful society. At last the government, courts, prosecution services and police are listening.
Mitch

 

[damian]

Certainly must say I am also not jumping all over any poster. I have to say I think on a forum this is all we can do offer an opinion and have others accept or dismiss it. Its just that many in my country who have to live with and have these acts done to their property and families are a bit sick of excuses for these symbols of a wonderful society. At last the government, courts, prosecution services and police are listening.
Mitch

Just as an observation I would think you are a bit heavy handed in some of your responses. Generally because you are convinced that you are right.Conrad is expressing his point of view on the situation. A view point which is shared by other commentators from what I can work out.
The use of expressions "A bit sick of excuses " is generally rather emotive. And your previous post was full of this sort of emotion.
You say you are a lawyer. One of the things the English system prides itself on is innocent until proven guilty and due process. So things like civil liberties and rushing through prosecutions may provide some sort of gratification that something is being done but that also comes with a cost. Once your civil liberty is gone it is gone.

 

[Rob]

Just as an observation I would think you are a bit heavy handed in some of your responses. Generally because you are convinced that you are right.Conrad is expressing his point of view on the situation. A view point which is shared by other commentators from what I can work out.
The use of expressions "A bit sick of excuses " is generally rather emotive. And your previous post was full of this sort of emotion.
You say you are a lawyer. One of the things the English system prides itself on is innocent until proven guilty and due process. So things like civil liberties and rushing through prosecutions may provide some sort of gratification that something is being done but that also comes with a cost. Once your civil liberty is gone it is gone.

Must say another thing that is most welcome is that some of these accused are being shown the evidence against them first, they are then opting to plead guilt in droves. There's no escaping it mate, these are not innocent victims being rushed through the system , they see the evidence in front of them. I'm very proud of the justice system who are dealing with these opportunistic vultures, these people were all laughing as they emerged from shops laden with other people's property, they are not laughing now.

Rob

 

[Rob]

There is one small positive thing to see in all this. There has been a lot of focus on kids on the streets with no parental control . However it's been good to see that some parents know right from wrong as there are now many reports of parents spotting their kids on CCTV or finding stolen goods in the house and marching their kids down to the local nick to face the consequences . Hard on the kids I know but a good example of honest people doing the right thing.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Not very surprising that my post was singled out in a sea of many that were similar thats your opinion and I have mine thats what a forum is all about. A bit sick of excuses is not emotive its a fact. I have heard every conceivable sob story when these people are caught. They never have the remorse when they are free doing these acts and believe they won't get caught.
Mitch

Just as an observation I would think you are a bit heavy handed in some of your responses. Generally because you are convinced that you are right.Conrad is expressing his point of view on the situation. A view point which is shared by other commentators from what I can work out.
The use of expressions "A bit sick of excuses " is generally rather emotive. And your previous post was full of this sort of emotion.
You say you are a lawyer. One of the things the English system prides itself on is innocent until proven guilty and due process. So things like civil liberties and rushing through prosecutions may provide some sort of gratification that something is being done but that also comes with a cost. Once your civil liberty is gone it is gone.

 

[The General]

Haven't heard much from Pommyland lately. What's the latest over there you guys? Has everything settled down?

Anybody ?

 

[Rob]

Anybody ?

Yes it seems to have ended now ( not to speak too soon) with no trouble for a few nights. Police now dealing with over a thousand people they've arrested .

Rob

 

[The General]

Yes it seems to have ended now ( not to speak too soon) with no trouble for a few nights. Police now dealing with over a thousand people they've arrested .

Rob

Thanks Rob. That's good news.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

It is fast becoming clear that the majority of them were simple opportunistic thugs bent on enriching themselves at the expense of others. You did not mention the five people who died

As I understand it, the first person who died in this affair was shot by the police. Since a major catalyst of these riots was (perceived) police corruption and abuse, I, like Damian, fail to see how encouraging police to crack down even harder on these depressed communities will achieve anything except lead to a further vicious cycle of violence on both sides not to mention further accelerate the slide into a 1984 big brother police state which harms the privacy and freedoms of law abiding citizens more than it does criminals. According to this article, five years ago there was already 1 CCTV for every 14 British citizens: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6108496.stm.

After witnessing the brutal police crackdown on peaceful political protesters in Toronto in 2010, I wonder if nonviolent political protest will be the next thing to be outlawed out of fears it could spiral into a riot? And at that point will any trace of our Western democracy remain?

I simply caution that media inflated panic over "threats" often lead to the assigning of undemocratic powers to those who will consciously or unconsciously abuse them - The Patriot Act, for example.

Again, the root issue comes back to why so many young people have suddenly turned into "opportunistic thugs" as you and Mr. Cameron like to call them. I wonder if their pursuit of material consumption at the expense of society could have anything to do with the like-for-like example set by our role models in the upper echelons of society? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...r-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

To me, these are two sides of the same coin, especially because the thievery of the one has necessitated the austerity cuts in social spending that help motivate the thievery of the other. But I wonder why our "justice" system is totally missing in action when it comes to holding the bankers and other corporate thieves accountable? We know their names, we know their faces, yet they remain untouchables, above the law.

 

[Mitch]

Lets hope that you or Damian never have your homes burnt down family members killed or seriously injured or your business destroyed by these depressed communities. I fully support CCTV and all it represents as I will never steal cars burn property or murder or attack innocent people in the streets. Its down to this that many are now serving jail sentences and will be in the future for serious criminal activity. The facts about what the guy was doing in the situation to be shot are not yet fully known but, that is still absolutely no excuse for any community to do what was done and, fortunately we are seeing a robust and correct IMO response and long may it continue.

Rob...

It now stands at over 2,000 arrested and many more to come
Mitch

As I understand it, the first person who died in this affair was shot by the police. Since a major catalyst of these riots was (perceived) police corruption and abuse, I, like Damian, fail to see how encouraging police to crack down even harder on these depressed communities will achieve anything except lead to a further vicious cycle of violence on both sides not to mention further accelerate the slide into a 1984 big brother police state which harms the privacy and freedoms of law abiding citizens more than it does criminals. According to this article, five years ago there was already 1 CCTV for every 14 British citizens: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6108496.stm.

After witnessing the brutal police crackdown on peaceful political protesters in Toronto in 2010, I wonder if nonviolent political protest will be the next thing to be outlawed out of fears it could spiral into a riot? And at that point will any trace of our Western democracy remain?

I simply caution that media inflated panic over "threats" often lead to the assigning of undemocratic powers to those who will consciously or unconsciously abuse them - The Patriot Act, for example.

Again, the root issue comes back to why so many young people have suddenly turned into "opportunistic thugs" as you and Mr. Cameron like to call them. I wonder if their pursuit of material consumption at the expense of society could have anything to do with the like-for-like example set by our role models in the upper echelons of society? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...r-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

To me, these are two sides of the same coin, especially because the thievery of the one has necessitated the austerity cuts in social spending that help motivate the thievery of the other. But I wonder why our "justice" system is totally missing in action when it comes to holding the bankers and other corporate thieves accountable? We know their names, we know their faces, yet they remain untouchables, above the law.

 

[VIRIATO]

While thousands die of hunger in Africa and many more die desperately trying to get to Europe by boat mostly to try to work anywhere anyhow for a proper living these looters go around toting their Blackberries and using the Internet (Twitter, Facebook, etc.), stuff probably paid for by the British taxpayers... Something deeply wrong here...


Paulo