New Conte Zulus (2 Viewers)

[damian]

njja

You raise an interesting theme which has always fascinated me re: British/US Armies fighting Native armies who used unorthodox tactics.

Armies fought their campaigns on the basis of lessons learned from the previous ones. The British Army's tactics of 1879 were based on primarily Waterloo all the way through to the Crimea and sending observers to other wars that the Brits were not party to such as the US Civil War. The Brits tactics of disciplined fire-power under order had always worked for them but most of their opponents had used the very same tactics.

But the Zulu and on your side of the pond in the case of the US Army against the Plains Indians neither conformed to the book of tactics, these native armies did not learn lessons in the formal classroom sense, they appeared more astute, more observant and more flexible than their "high-tech" army counterparts. They used decoys, camouflage, concealment, they exploited the tactical advantages such as exposed ridgelines and terrain. Zulu & Indian expertise drew on collective practical experience, which formed part of their extensive training from boy-hood to mature warrior. Nothing was missed.
But the Brits/US Army experience required formal drilling and training that did not lend itself well in vast open spaces searching for an indigenous people and we now know it's application against the Zulu in 1879 and the Sioux in 1876 appeared to be completely irrelevant. And the actions of Chelmsford and the inexperienced Pulleine are indicative of the above doctrine within the British Army that these Zulu would be unable to match the British disciplined fire-power. Very much like Custer at the Little Big Horn who had been indoctrinated with similar tactics during the Civil War.

Now imagine being one of those red-coated Brits as shown in Joe's outstanding dio pics- courageous no doubt but their must have been some incredulity amongst them as manouvering to counter the mass of Zulu coming at them from every direction would inevitably reduce the battalions fire-power. They were staring defeat in the face, everything they had been told by their Officers and NCO's about the enemy was being completely contradicted by events going on around them and their endless drill of forming a battle line to pour fire into the foe was having absolutely no effect on this mass of black chanting warriors in front, beside and eventually behind them. Hard to imagine their final thoughts of "this just should not be happening Sergeant Baines said we would walk all over them" as their bodies were lacerated and wripped apart by a dozen assegais and their skulls cracked open by knobkerries. Scary or what!

Reb

Well there is a school of thought, (mine at least) which would suggest that the Zulu were just as unable to adapt as teh British. Whe lead the more successful struggle against white and British colonial expansion in SA, the Xhosa on the Eastern Cape Frontier or the Zulus? Remeber the intila frontier wars the Xhosa had attemtped to storm Grahamstown and had been defeated by firepower. Now that was back in 1820 ( The exact date escapes me) After that frontier war there were several others where the Xhosa successfully used geurilla tactics to wear down the colonial forces. Teh struggel between the Brits and the Xhosa lasted almost 100 years.
Chelmsford was hoping for exactly what he got, a massed frontla attack. Part of the reason he was caught with his pants down was that he expected a geurilla type campaign I don't think for teh life of him he expected a full on attack on his camp. The Zulus attacked Islandwana and Gingindlovu on the same day. However they too failed to learn and at Ulundi paid the price. The frontier wars have largely been forgotten. Neil Mostert's superb book "Frontiers" is well written and researched. However teh Xhos struggle for independence lasted longer and ultimatley gave the world Nelson Mandela the man who finally won some sort of freedom for the African people of SA.
Regards
Damian

 

[kilted vampire]

It is hard , I imagine to know what was really going on in their heads. I wonder what they would have thought about. Can one even think beyond ones' own demise? The movies have us believe the dying think of loved ones. Perhaps even their maker. In this lifetime I seem to be an observer rather than having an active sort of life. I can say this, I would be terrified!!!!

I think that perhaps you are both right about the overall conditions that lead to the battles and their outcomes. If a person does not learn from their mistakes there seems to be an endless repetition of opportunities to relearn it.
Maybe this is where Churchill began to formulate his wonderful observation about history.

 

[UKReb]

Damian

From what I read on the Battle of Grahamstown the garrison had a pre-warning of the attack-very similar to the guys at Rorkes Drift and that then became a very different ball-game. A defensive stand within a barricaded perimeter-completely different engagement to fighting in wide open spaces as I was referring to in my post.

And if I remember the Grahamstown fight was, even as a defensive engagement, still a close run thing saved only by the chance arrival of a couple of hundred buffalo hunters led by their Christian convert leader Jan Boesak who added to the British fire power.

But Yes you are right- Chelmsford didn't expect a frontal attack very much like Custer didn't who was more concerned that the Indian would run rather than fight. They didn't run at the Fetterman massacre some years before and they didn't run from Crook at the Rosebud (both wide open space engagements). Both he and Chelmsford expected a guerilla type campaign but both got the opposite and their tactics of marching men across great vast treks of land looking for the enemy was not useful to them at all.

Of course the Zulu got smashed at Ulundi the same as the Sioux did in the aftermath of Custer's massacre but by sheer man and modern artillery power. But it took two massacres to learn the lesson as both leaders took off on their campaigns cocky and confident that they could march through both native nations armed with well drilled and disciplined troops it didn't appear that they even gave it a thought that their foe was just as disciplined but with a very different type of tactics. And likewise those troops had it instilled in them that the force before them were vastly inferior to their fire-power. They weren't! and why they weren't? was the point I was trying to make.

Reb

 

[Njja]

njja

You raise an interesting theme which has always fascinated me re: British/US Armies fighting Native armies who used unorthodox tactics.

Reb:

This of course is where discipline comes in, even in the situation they found

themselves in, they faced the challenge and survived. What was amazing to

me was the fact that eariler in the same day over 1100 men with similar

training were wiped out by the same enemy.

All war is a shame, but it is man's way. The mistake we make here in America

is we always fight on the enemies terms. Then the malcontents want to

surrender when the first soldier is killed.

First we should all agree we don't want to fight......until it is time to fight,

then we should bring all our immense power like a fighter in the ring.

When North Korea dragged our ship Pueblo off the high seas.......we should

have given them 72 hours to release it, and at the same time told the nations

with ships in the harbor to move them out to sea, and move the population to

safety, because in 72 hours and 1 minute there was going to be a new

crater where that harbor had been.

We would not find ourselves in the situation we are in today, had we stood

firm. Some people take compassion for weakness. You need compassion for

those that deserve it, how do you deal with a terrorist?

Its really quite simple, you terrorize him.

Njja........pacifist.......yeah right!

 

[1879fanatic]

Njja,
Coul not have said it better! It is rather simple, isn't it? But special interests and other whiners need their say, and we give it to them via the media as if they are a majority. They must not have visited the world trade center building, the big P, or a simple field in PA, which could really be anywhere that people fight back. I could go on forever... Mike

 

[Njja]

It is hard , I imagine to know what was really going on in their heads. I wonder what they would have thought about. Can one even think beyond ones' own demise? The movies have us believe the dying think of loved ones. Perhaps even their maker. In this lifetime I seem to be an observer rather than having an active sort of life. I can say this, I would be terrified!!!!

Its difficult to determine what a person thinks about when death is near, I

know what happened to me. I found myself facing death when I was 17 or

18. We had just had a big storm on the jersey shore, and the water was

very rough. A group of us were at a deserted beach surfing. I had ordered a

new board which had not come in yet, so I went out to body surf. There

were about 1/2 dozen of us in the water. A large wave hit me and turned me

over, when I came to the surface I could no longer see the beach, but I

could see a large water tower, so I knew which way to swim. Wave after

wave kept hitting me, and knocking me under, finally I came to the surface

and I could no longer see the water tower. I couldn't tell which way the

waves were running because they kept breaking over me. Not knowing what

direction I was facing, I panicked. So I started to YELL HELP!

Each time you yell, you release the air in your lungs.....and you sink like a

stone. You yell, and sink under the water, fight to the surface, yell and sink.

Finally, when you know you are alone, and no one can hear you, you get

strangely calm you stop fighting, and you just sink below the waves. At least

thats what happened to me. You just give up, and its over.

In my case, it just wasn't my time, next thing I knew something hit my knee,

it was sand. I was in the break water, one of my friends ran by me carrying

his board, he said "come on, quit fooling around....we're going to eat"

When I told everyone what happened, they like most 18 year olds, though it

was a big joke. I never looked at the ocean the same way again.

Njja

 

[damian]

Damian

From what I read on the Battle of Grahamstown the garrison had a pre-warning of the attack-very similar to the guys at Rorkes Drift and that then became a very different ball-game. A defensive stand within a barricaded perimeter-completely different engagement to fighting in wide open spaces as I was referring to in my post.

And if I remember the Grahamstown fight was, even as a defensive engagement, still a close run thing saved only by the chance arrival of a couple of hundred buffalo hunters led by their Christian convert leader Jan Boesak who added to the British fire power.

But Yes you are right- Chelmsford didn't expect a frontal attack very much like Custer didn't who was more concerned that the Indian would run rather than fight. They didn't run at the Fetterman massacre some years before and they didn't run from Crook at the Rosebud (both wide open space engagements). Both he and Chelmsford expected a guerilla type campaign but both got the opposite and their tactics of marching men across great vast treks of land looking for the enemy was not useful to them at all.

Of course the Zulu got smashed at Ulundi the same as the Sioux did in the aftermath of Custer's massacre but by sheer man and modern artillery power. But it took two massacres to learn the lesson as both leaders took off on their campaigns cocky and confident that they could march through both native nations armed with well drilled and disciplined troops it didn't appear that they even gave it a thought that their foe was just as disciplined but with a very different type of tactics. And likewise those troops had it instilled in them that the force before them were vastly inferior to their fire-power. They weren't! and why they weren't? was the point I was trying to make.

Reb

Reb
As always a learned and reasoned post. Thanks. I was trying to resituate the debate to the broader struggle of the African tribes against colonialism. Mostert's book is great like that. It draws the line of resistnace all the way from Hintsa who it seems Sir Harry Smith murdered through to Mbeki, Mandela and Steve Biko of the late 20 th century. I am impressed that you are familiar with the assault on Grahamstown.
Regards
Damian

 

[1879fanatic]

WOW!
Beautifully written words on the closeness of death. Usually in combat(hopefully) training takes over, and if it was good training, you just pop out at the end chucking nervously and joking it off with other meatheads. The worst part comes later when you are all alone with your thoughts and memories. That's when the mind can take over and really paralyze the body.
PS- Jersey shore almost took me away when I was 17 also. scary Mike

 

[Chuck Harris]

njja

You raise an interesting theme which has always fascinated me re: British/US Armies fighting Native armies who used unorthodox tactics.

Reb:

This of course is where discipline comes in, even in the situation they found

themselves in, they faced the challenge and survived. What was amazing to

me was the fact that eariler in the same day over 1100 men with similar

training were wiped out by the same enemy.

All war is a shame, but it is man's way. The mistake we make here in America

is we always fight on the enemies terms. Then the malcontents want to

surrender when the first soldier is killed.

First we should all agree we don't want to fight......until it is time to fight,

then we should bring all our immense power like a fighter in the ring.

When North Korea dragged our ship Pueblo off the high seas.......we should

have given them 72 hours to release it, and at the same time told the nations

with ships in the harbor to move them out to sea, and move the population to

safety, because in 72 hours and 1 minute there was going to be a new

crater where that harbor had been.

We would not find ourselves in the situation we are in today, had we stood

firm. Some people take compassion for weakness. You need compassion for

those that deserve it, how do you deal with a terrorist?

Its really quite simple, you terrorize him.

Njja........pacifist.......yeah right!

Every counrty or group takes our compassion for weakness. The one's that don't understand this are the Jane F's in this country. I told you how I feel about her.

 

[damian]

With all due respect here guys no-one has a problem getting tough with terrorists. Just bear in mind that if you wipe out a whole lot of innocents whilst you are delaing with the terrorist all you do is create a new embittered chap who is more open to the siren song of violence. If he/she feels he has nothing to lose then hey presto you have a new suicide bomber. If all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.
Regards
Damian

 

[Njja]

With all due respect here guys no-one has a problem getting tough with terrorists. Just bear in mind that if you wipe out a whole lot of innocents whilst you are delaing with the terrorist all you do is create a new embittered chap who is more open to the siren song of violence. If he/she feels he has nothing to lose then hey presto you have a new suicide bomber. If all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.
Regards
Damian

Perhaps, on a small level, but look at history. Here Gen Sherman brought the

War to the South until the south had its fill and it ended.

In WWII we bombed Germany into submission, and when the war ended, they

had enough. And lets not forget the Japanese with their Bushido Code truely

a warrior mentality. They were prepaired to fight us man-woman and child

until we convinced them otherwise.

Problem with selected bombing is what you describe, you create more

enemies. Look at what happened with Kaddafi when Regan went after him

did he want to meet Allah..........ah no. Now we are friends.

Here in the US one of "Ben Lauden's" nephews attends Harvard......are we

nuts?

You want to get that guy......eliminate everyone related to him! Everyone

that he ever knew in his lifetime. Everyone that knew anyone that ever met

him.

We see videos of these clowns with masks on their faces.....thats because

they are afraid. Lets really give them something to be afraid of......thats how

you eliminate terrorism.

Not by allowing their relativies to attend Harvard!

 

[Njja]

I don't want to give the wrong impression, I believe in peace, everyone

should enjoy the gift of life. We here in America should treat other countries

with the same respect we seek. We should be an honorable nation, and not

seek to impose our will on others.

But when attacked, we should defend ourselves in such a manner that we

are not attacked again.

When you see a beehive you don't think "I'm gonna get me some honey"

you think........uh oh Beeeeeeeeeeeees

Njja

 

[Njja]

Njja,
Coul not have said it better! It is rather simple, isn't it? But special interests and other whiners need their say, and we give it to them via the media as if they are a majority. They must not have visited the world trade center building, the big P, or a simple field in PA, which could really be anywhere that people fight back. I could go on forever... Mike

Mike:

You have said it all!

Njja

 

[The Lt.]

Seems like these brave souls are shortly to meet their end.........The Lt.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Seems like these brave souls are shortly to meet their end.........The Lt.

Are these guys painted Contes then?

 

[The Lt.]

Are these guys painted Contes then?

Yes I painted the 24th both in matte and gloss with the Zulus dress up in matte....The Lt.

 

[Njja]

Very nice job!

 

[The Lt.]

 

[Spitfrnd]

Another great action shot. On a side note, I just got a Heroes set and was annoyed to discover the figures are significantly smaller than the KR Rorke's Drift figures. Which ones do the plastic figures match?

 

[The Lt.]

Another great action shot. On a side note, I just got a Heroes set and was annoyed to discover the figures are significantly smaller than the KR Rorke's Drift figures. Which ones do the plastic figures match?

Spitfrnd a pictures worth a thousand words. The Heros are the same scale as the plastics which is 1/54mm where The KR figures are 1/56mm. The metal figure seem taller but you'll note it's due to the base.....The Lt.