wayne556517
Lieutenant General
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How is this a copy Matt ?
Night Time In Vietnam (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gunn Miniatures
- Start date
How is this a copy Matt ?
Desertkiwi
1st Lieutenant
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- Oct 3, 2009
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- 4,730
Wayne mate, I don't think any further input from me would make an ounce of difference judging by your responses thus far, so I'm going to leave things there thanks.
Cheers.
wayne556517
Lieutenant General
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- Aug 28, 2007
- Messages
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TGM do.
Gunn Miniatures
Command Sergeant Major
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Hmmm very interesting thread this, seems to be really developing into something. Let me address 2 issues here:
1. We are riding on the back of K&C’s coat tails by bringing out complementary products to their Vietnam range.
2. The best comment yet is that we stole their idea of making a Land Rover.
So let me tell you a story, I love a good story although this may not actually be as good compared to previous ones.
Every year for the last 3 or 4 years around Christmas time we have met a good Australian customer of ours in London. We have a beer (Peroni) and some pasta at Carluccios, we discuss the TS market and what would be a good seller for future production, it’s a great day and I look forward to it every year. The ideas mentioned have included WW2 Germans, Vikings, Normans and Australians in Vietnam (both way before K&C or JJD made either) and even some others like Boer war. At the first meeting in 2016/17 we were still heavily involved with the Romans and Spartans and could not really proceed with any of these ideas. However fast forward a year later we start back into our WW2 Germans and mull over Vietnam and the Normans, but being a small company we can only cope with so much. Now that same person probably spoke with K&C and JJD and mooted the same ideas to them, who knows or maybe other collectors did, does not really matter. We get emails just about every day with ideas for future products that are always sure sellers!
Of course during that time K&C and JJD both proceed with 2 of the above ideas and good for them they got there before us, I wish them every success, however does not mean we cannot make figures or other items for these series if we see a gap in the market.
We have made WW2 British tank riders but no British tank and also German riders, until recently no German tank for ‘zee Germans’ to sit on either. I don’t recall anybody saying we were riding on others coat tails then. I prefer to see it as complimenting an existing 1/30 series, much like Hauler, Black Dog and Eduard do in 1/35 scale for other model makers kits like Tamiya. Another 1/35 scale figure manufacturer makes the most exquisite 1/35 scale figures but no vehicles, yet he showcases his tankers and tank riders very proudly with other manufacturers vehicles and nobody seems to get in the least upset about it. He’s filling a gap that the vehicle manufacturer created.
Others may see it a different way and of course that is their prerogative, but this is the way I see it. If you don’t see it this way then guilty as charged your honour.
This brings me onto vehicle production, one of the reasons we pulled out of it some time ago, was it takes a lot of time to produce a vehicle and ties up large amounts of resources, for us it’s at least a year from start to finish assuming there is a suitable 1/35 scale model kit we can use for reference. If no 1/35 scale model kit then add on another3 months at least. This now makes our LR production schedule 15 months for those of you doing the maths. You also have to remember we have other ongoing projects that require our attention and there are only so many hours in a day. Some projects can sit there for years, with one of us going backwards and forwards to them for a wee tinker, some never happen at all despite many hours of work.
If there is any possibility another manufacturer may make an item before us then we do not make it full stop, makes no sense financially as it only dilutes sales for us and them. Nobody wins and we might as well make another item that will sell better for us. The conspiracy theory that once we heard K&C were making a LR, we jumped on the idea and rushed it through to production shows a complete lack of knowledge with regards to this type of production. It borders on Walter Mitty fantasy territory, no offence intended, it just does.
It takes us 6-9 months to get a figure out from start to finish depending on how busy our factory is, a vehicle is twice as much work and as said before takes us a minimum of 1 year.
By the time K&C mentioned in July 2019 they were going to make a LR, we were over 6 months into the project with release of prototype slotted for London December show, frankly we were already beyond the stage of no return. Once we heard K&C were going to make a LR we contacted our factory and revised the purchase order down from 200 vehicles to 120 as we knew our sales would be affected.
Had there not been a delay with the machine gunner and as per normal the darn decals, we would have previewed it in December in London with general release in February 2020. As we all know the world has since then been consumed by a pandemic which knocked ours and others productionback another 10 weeks, hence an April release rather than sooner as planned.
Prior to starting the project we did discuss with some of our customers and dealers whether a Land Rover would be a good seller and all agreed, that as nobody to that date had made one and no mention of one from anybody else, then it would be a good seller. Never look a gift horse in the mouth as my old man used to say.
Some of our British customers have mentioned to us (numerous times) over the years that if we ever made a Land Rover they would buy it in any format and true to form they have now both ordered from us!
So despite (relatively) being the new kids on the block we have made a completely original vehicle not made by another manufacturer to date in 1/30 scale and the fact that we produced it before anybody else only goes to reinforce this comment. It could be that K&C had the idea to make a LR at the same time or before us, I guess we will never know, however we were first to bring it physically to market and that only goes to prove our point even more.
We also have other unique projects in the pipeline and dare I say it some not so original like a winter Panzer 4. I wonder if anybody will comment then that we are copying the ideas of K&C, CS, FL or WP who have all made winter Panzer 4’s, those I especially look forward to addressing. After all I am not going anywhere soon in the current climate and have nothing else better to do.
When I posted the photo it had been the end of a very long day struggling with setting up a lightroom and a new camera with all its technicalities (give me a Kodak Brownie any day), the content was actually irrelevant to me, I was more pleased with the photo than anything else. For those of you who seem to take umbrage at this I apologise, but as you may not have noticed, I did not mention anybody’s products in the photo as it’s pretty obvious whose are whose. Had I been a collector who had posted this photo then I am sure I would have received a pat on the back for my efforts or maybe not, who knows depends what you thought of the photo I suppose. However because we are also a manufacturer its automatically assumed that we are promoting our products, if that is the case then conversely or rather perversely are we not also promoting the other companies products at the same time?
As a foot note I actually don’t need to promote the LR anymore, its 98% sold out here and no doubt would have already sold out had it not been for Covid-19 but I do hope K&C sell more Aussie tank riders because of the photo, they are nice figures and look great in any number of scenarios including with our Land Rover.
I won’t be posting any more comments or replies to this thread as enough said, but I do thank you for reading and putting up with my story!
Best wishes Blake@TG
Still head of photography until a suitable replacement is found.
1. We are riding on the back of K&C’s coat tails by bringing out complementary products to their Vietnam range.
2. The best comment yet is that we stole their idea of making a Land Rover.
So let me tell you a story, I love a good story although this may not actually be as good compared to previous ones.
Every year for the last 3 or 4 years around Christmas time we have met a good Australian customer of ours in London. We have a beer (Peroni) and some pasta at Carluccios, we discuss the TS market and what would be a good seller for future production, it’s a great day and I look forward to it every year. The ideas mentioned have included WW2 Germans, Vikings, Normans and Australians in Vietnam (both way before K&C or JJD made either) and even some others like Boer war. At the first meeting in 2016/17 we were still heavily involved with the Romans and Spartans and could not really proceed with any of these ideas. However fast forward a year later we start back into our WW2 Germans and mull over Vietnam and the Normans, but being a small company we can only cope with so much. Now that same person probably spoke with K&C and JJD and mooted the same ideas to them, who knows or maybe other collectors did, does not really matter. We get emails just about every day with ideas for future products that are always sure sellers!
Of course during that time K&C and JJD both proceed with 2 of the above ideas and good for them they got there before us, I wish them every success, however does not mean we cannot make figures or other items for these series if we see a gap in the market.
We have made WW2 British tank riders but no British tank and also German riders, until recently no German tank for ‘zee Germans’ to sit on either. I don’t recall anybody saying we were riding on others coat tails then. I prefer to see it as complimenting an existing 1/30 series, much like Hauler, Black Dog and Eduard do in 1/35 scale for other model makers kits like Tamiya. Another 1/35 scale figure manufacturer makes the most exquisite 1/35 scale figures but no vehicles, yet he showcases his tankers and tank riders very proudly with other manufacturers vehicles and nobody seems to get in the least upset about it. He’s filling a gap that the vehicle manufacturer created.
Others may see it a different way and of course that is their prerogative, but this is the way I see it. If you don’t see it this way then guilty as charged your honour.
This brings me onto vehicle production, one of the reasons we pulled out of it some time ago, was it takes a lot of time to produce a vehicle and ties up large amounts of resources, for us it’s at least a year from start to finish assuming there is a suitable 1/35 scale model kit we can use for reference. If no 1/35 scale model kit then add on another3 months at least. This now makes our LR production schedule 15 months for those of you doing the maths. You also have to remember we have other ongoing projects that require our attention and there are only so many hours in a day. Some projects can sit there for years, with one of us going backwards and forwards to them for a wee tinker, some never happen at all despite many hours of work.
If there is any possibility another manufacturer may make an item before us then we do not make it full stop, makes no sense financially as it only dilutes sales for us and them. Nobody wins and we might as well make another item that will sell better for us. The conspiracy theory that once we heard K&C were making a LR, we jumped on the idea and rushed it through to production shows a complete lack of knowledge with regards to this type of production. It borders on Walter Mitty fantasy territory, no offence intended, it just does.
It takes us 6-9 months to get a figure out from start to finish depending on how busy our factory is, a vehicle is twice as much work and as said before takes us a minimum of 1 year.
By the time K&C mentioned in July 2019 they were going to make a LR, we were over 6 months into the project with release of prototype slotted for London December show, frankly we were already beyond the stage of no return. Once we heard K&C were going to make a LR we contacted our factory and revised the purchase order down from 200 vehicles to 120 as we knew our sales would be affected.
Had there not been a delay with the machine gunner and as per normal the darn decals, we would have previewed it in December in London with general release in February 2020. As we all know the world has since then been consumed by a pandemic which knocked ours and others productionback another 10 weeks, hence an April release rather than sooner as planned.
Prior to starting the project we did discuss with some of our customers and dealers whether a Land Rover would be a good seller and all agreed, that as nobody to that date had made one and no mention of one from anybody else, then it would be a good seller. Never look a gift horse in the mouth as my old man used to say.
Some of our British customers have mentioned to us (numerous times) over the years that if we ever made a Land Rover they would buy it in any format and true to form they have now both ordered from us!
So despite (relatively) being the new kids on the block we have made a completely original vehicle not made by another manufacturer to date in 1/30 scale and the fact that we produced it before anybody else only goes to reinforce this comment. It could be that K&C had the idea to make a LR at the same time or before us, I guess we will never know, however we were first to bring it physically to market and that only goes to prove our point even more.
We also have other unique projects in the pipeline and dare I say it some not so original like a winter Panzer 4. I wonder if anybody will comment then that we are copying the ideas of K&C, CS, FL or WP who have all made winter Panzer 4’s, those I especially look forward to addressing. After all I am not going anywhere soon in the current climate and have nothing else better to do.
When I posted the photo it had been the end of a very long day struggling with setting up a lightroom and a new camera with all its technicalities (give me a Kodak Brownie any day), the content was actually irrelevant to me, I was more pleased with the photo than anything else. For those of you who seem to take umbrage at this I apologise, but as you may not have noticed, I did not mention anybody’s products in the photo as it’s pretty obvious whose are whose. Had I been a collector who had posted this photo then I am sure I would have received a pat on the back for my efforts or maybe not, who knows depends what you thought of the photo I suppose. However because we are also a manufacturer its automatically assumed that we are promoting our products, if that is the case then conversely or rather perversely are we not also promoting the other companies products at the same time?
As a foot note I actually don’t need to promote the LR anymore, its 98% sold out here and no doubt would have already sold out had it not been for Covid-19 but I do hope K&C sell more Aussie tank riders because of the photo, they are nice figures and look great in any number of scenarios including with our Land Rover.
I won’t be posting any more comments or replies to this thread as enough said, but I do thank you for reading and putting up with my story!
Best wishes Blake@TG
Still head of photography until a suitable replacement is found.
Last edited:
jazzeum
Four Star General
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 38,815
I took a look at this thread and there were some references and inferences that TGM may have copied K & C because K & C are going to produce a Land Rover. Unlike figures, where you could have a claim for copyright infringement because poses can be copied, it’s not possible to have a copyright claim for making a model vehicle because vehicles can only be made one way, the only exception being if the so-called infringing vehicle model had the same markings as the other one. That K & C had one in the works and that TGM came out with theirs would not be relevant except that from a commercial point of view you always want to be first to market. In a normal commercial setting (that is where we are talking about thousands or millions of a product being made), being first to market is very important.
As to TGM failing to mention that they were using K & C products, yes, I would have pointed out that they were using K & C models and figures. That was a faux pas, in my opinion. In advertising, you will frequently see a company identifying the products of another party and stating that the copyrights or trademarks of such products belong to the other party.
As to TGM failing to mention that they were using K & C products, yes, I would have pointed out that they were using K & C models and figures. That was a faux pas, in my opinion. In advertising, you will frequently see a company identifying the products of another party and stating that the copyrights or trademarks of such products belong to the other party.
King & Country
Captain
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- May 23, 2005
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I know a bus driver...…….confused, that is what I was by the answer in the quote above, as my comment has as much to do with the original comment which the above answered. See below,
Originally Posted by wayne556517 
How can you be original mate in this hobby ?
Everyone has made something another comoany has done so I just dont get it.
First in best dressed mate.
How can you be original mate in this hobby ?
Everyone has made something another comoany has done so I just dont get it.
First in best dressed mate.
'will be waiting for the King and Country Land Rover as they will produce one that is more accurate.'
Your comment above, have you seen the K & C one? How do you the K & C one will be more accurate? Has your crystal ball told you? If it has then please ask it for the Lottery numbers for next week. You cannot know it will be more accurate.
Plus accuracy depends on the individual vehicle being produced, the TG one appears to be developed on an actual picture of a Landrover and it looks like an accurate representation to me, but the TG vehicle would not be accurate for some of the others pictures I have seen. But then again I have not counted all the rivets. Also on accuracy I do not think any single TS has a quality threshold and I do not know one that has not made an error, numerous, when releasing figures. To name a few,
T Gunn Testudo figures holding their shields about their heads, the first batch had their hands on the outside of the shield.
T Gunn Italian figures which had the wrong collars.
K & C Battle of the Bulge Elefant - one of the best SP/TS I have, but not used in the Battle of the Bulge.
K & C Luftwaffe figure walking along with Bomb on shoulder, he must be very strong.
K & C BBG119 - there are a number of thing inaccurate about this vehicle, nut I bought it.
Britains 88mm gun - The Germans did not manufacture an 88mm gun with camo so good it was invisible.
T Gunn Italian figures which had the wrong collars.
K & C Battle of the Bulge Elefant - one of the best SP/TS I have, but not used in the Battle of the Bulge.
K & C Luftwaffe figure walking along with Bomb on shoulder, he must be very strong.
K & C BBG119 - there are a number of thing inaccurate about this vehicle, nut I bought it.
Britains 88mm gun - The Germans did not manufacture an 88mm gun with camo so good it was invisible.
I do not know about copying, but Figarti produced a Vietnam range, did K & C copy that? I do not think so, plus there are numerous companies producing toy soldiers for Vietnam, but in plastic, many with the same poses etc. Can only 1 company produce a vehicle, Wittman's Tiger for example or Jonny Johnsons Spitfire?
I collect K & C, TG, Warpark and JJ. They do compliment each other in certain ranges, Romans and Romes enemies with TG and JJ being similar and K & C romans and JJ enemies, but I would not interchange TG Romans or JJ Romans with K & C's. Warpark go with F Legion.
the above is my opinion and I think what some of the 'newer' companies have looked at ranges and seen gaps in the range which they have looked to exploit, where there is a market there is a potential seller.
Pathfinder216
In the cooler
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- May 12, 2018
- Messages
- 12
The Long wheelbase GS Landrover looks small to me if you can only fit two figures in the back is it really 1:30 scale?, as in the real world a normal long wheelbase GS landrover you could get 4 guys in with fighting order on as a minimal and the Bergens strapped to the sides.
Just a thought
J
Gunn Miniatures
Command Sergeant Major
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That's because we only had 3 K&C tank rider figures to share between 2 vehicles James, the budget was somewhat limited for this shoot!
cantinetozzo
First Sergeant
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- Oct 26, 2008
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- 1,362
Andy is the TOP in this business, and usually i, based in Italy, find difficult to find (sorry to repeat) a TGM figure when i like it, more difficult to find a tank or vehicle. Having said this, Andy talks about principles and that is understandable, even in a certain way sacred, but from a realistic point of view, TGM couldn't compete even in 20 years time, they have chosen to produce few figures, and as i said even when i like them (i must admit sometime they have great fantasy) it's very difficult to find them (i have only 4!). By the way as i recently battled over WP French Grenadiers figure, is nearly impossible to be original in this hobby, the inspiration is always there, from a Osprey plate, a Volstad drawing, a Don Troiani painting and then pictures, films etc. I created a blog and try to link figures to their real inspiration, is a thing i always found funny to do. The blog was created recently and i'm collecting material, i'll let you know when i s ready! 
Nelson1976
Private 2
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- Aug 28, 2015
- Messages
- 96
Personally, I think it’s all the Aussies’ fault - clearly they can create argie bargie in a Trappist monastery even when they are merely inanimate toy soldiers!
The only solution is for all manufacturers to produce some more US vehicles and figures, and forget the wretched antipodeans for a while....
Otherwise happy Anzac Day!
The only solution is for all manufacturers to produce some more US vehicles and figures, and forget the wretched antipodeans for a while....
Otherwise happy Anzac Day!
OzDigger
Colonel
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- Jan 7, 2006
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- 8,585
Awww....have those nasty Aussies upset wee Nelson again. I bet you miss your ship mates with this isolation, never mind, you'll soon be back to kissing a few 'Hardys'.
Nelson1976
Private 2
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- Aug 28, 2015
- Messages
- 96
Sticks and stones - the dog was named after the admiral, I was merely named after the dog.
More seriously - apologies - “happy” isn’t right for Anzac Day; gratitude, commemoration and respect would have been much better - last post at the MCG? Emotional stuff.
More seriously - apologies - “happy” isn’t right for Anzac Day; gratitude, commemoration and respect would have been much better - last post at the MCG? Emotional stuff.
arnhem44mad
1st Lieutenant
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- Sep 23, 2006
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- 4,665
Anything involving the Australians seems to lead to trouble!
Scott
Scott
Terp152
Major
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- Sep 17, 2009
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- 6,508
People from one of the Colonies causing trouble, this is what happens when Aussies don't serve behind bars in pubs.
Seriously Guys, this thread is getting a bit too personal and serious. I like Andy and Blake and they make great toy soldiers and vehicles, they are competitors but ironically they make toy soldiers but are not at war. I am sure they do not want others stirring up things, you can argue about quality and accuracy, but it is between companies/manufacturers on copying or 'riding on some ones else back' in business, it is between the companies and not the customers.
Please take a step back, they are only Toy Soldiers or men ornaments as one of my friends [female] calls them.
Seriously Guys, this thread is getting a bit too personal and serious. I like Andy and Blake and they make great toy soldiers and vehicles, they are competitors but ironically they make toy soldiers but are not at war. I am sure they do not want others stirring up things, you can argue about quality and accuracy, but it is between companies/manufacturers on copying or 'riding on some ones else back' in business, it is between the companies and not the customers.
Please take a step back, they are only Toy Soldiers or men ornaments as one of my friends [female] calls them.
Desertkiwi
1st Lieutenant
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- Oct 3, 2009
- Messages
- 4,730
I know a bus driver...…….confused, that is what I was by the answer in the quote above, as my comment has as much to do with the original comment which the above answered. See below,
Originally Posted by wayne556517
How can you be original mate in this hobby ?
Everyone has made something another comoany has done so I just dont get it.
First in best dressed mate.
Actually I know an excellant bus driver who understands me perfectly. Maybe that's because he's an Aussie and has a sense of humour...…^&grin
