OFFICIAL Firefly Photos (1 Viewer)

[Lurchio]

Hi Guys,
I was waiting for this little discussion to crop up as to who actually got Wittman.
I'm surprised no one has come in as yet supporting the RAF and USAAF claims to have got him.
There were also other British units in the area who lodged subsequent claims.
Joe Ekins was unaware of who he had shot (alongside the 2 other Tigers in the same action) until well after the war when he returned to Northamptonshire as a cobbler (Shoemaker)
He made no claims himself only provided information to those conducting the research until much later in life, so the Canadian eye witness reports could be equally if more suspect.
As Rob says the Tank Museum in Bovington have researched this in minute detail and have agreement from many other military reserachers around the globe as to the most likely claimant.
Suffice to say it's another one where there will never be complete agreement and I've no doubt future revisionists if they're so inclined will be able to "prove" that in fact Wittman survived and is living in South America.

By the way a great model though, given the Kand C early tigers are the same size or thereabouts as the Figarti Tigers maybe the Normandy versions will go with the Firefly with a little artistic license.

Regards to all
Clive

 

[Rob]

Like to thank Clive for the info that came with the Firefly,really explains what happened that day,sanctioned i believe by Bovington Tank museum i understand,one of the worlds most respected i understand.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Hi Guys,
I was waiting for this little discussion to crop up as to who actually got Wittman.
I'm surprised no one has come in as yet supporting the RAF and USAAF claims to have got him.
There were also other British units in the area who lodged subsequent claims.
Joe Ekins was unaware of who he had shot (alongside the 2 other Tigers in the same action) until well after the war when he returned to Northamptonshire as a cobbler (Shoemaker)
He made no claims himself only provided information to those conducting the research until much later in life, so the Canadian eye witness reports could be equally if more suspect.
As Rob says the Tank Museum in Bovington have researched this in minute detail and have agreement from many other military reserachers around the globe as to the most likely claimant.
Suffice to say it's another one where there will never be complete agreement and I've no doubt future revisionists if they're so inclined will be able to "prove" that in fact Wittman survived and is living in South America.

By the way a great model though, given the Kand C early tigers are the same size or thereabouts as the Figarti Tigers maybe the Normandy versions will go with the Firefly with a little artistic license.

Regards to all
Clive

Spot on Clive,well said mate.

Rob

 

[maddadicus]

I am a little surprised by this groups obvious bias against space aliens. Won't you all be ashamed when Wittman walks out of the mothership someday..Michael

 

[Rob]

I am a little surprised by this groups obvious bias against space aliens. Won't you all be ashamed when Wittman walks out of the mothership someday..Michael

More chance than that Canadian Sherman hitting him!!

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

You guys seem very sure about something that even the experts are still arguing about. From what I have read the relative distances of the various claims and actual shot damage to Wittmans tank supports the Canadian claim. Consequently I would be interested to hear what specific information Bovington base the British claim on - apart from an inexperienced gunner.

 

[Rob]

You want to know what our evidence is,after you said you'd take the Canadian claim over a British claim.You summed up your position very nicely.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

You want to know what our evidence is,after you said you'd take the Canadian claim over a British claim.You summed up your position very nicely.

Rob

I said I would take the claim of several experienced Canadian crews over ONE inexperienced British Gunner. Clearly that's in terms of the number of witnesses rather than any racial beliefs as you seemed to suggest in your self deleted post below.

Why would it make any difference to an Aussie who got Wittman. I'm just interested in getting the correct version like they did with the Red Baron which as we ALL NOW KNOW was shot down by an Aussie. Of course there are still plenty of Brits, and Canadians for that matter, that believe they got the Red Baron but the angle of injuries and distances supported the Aussie claim there. Seems a similar situation in the Wittman case imo in that forensic evidence doesn't lie, which steers me in the Canadian direction. But if Bovington has some better evidence I would like to hear it.

 

[Rob]

Hi Guys,
I was waiting for this little discussion to crop up as to who actually got Wittman.
I'm surprised no one has come in as yet supporting the RAF and USAAF claims to have got him.
There were also other British units in the area who lodged subsequent claims.
Joe Ekins was unaware of who he had shot (alongside the 2 other Tigers in the same action) until well after the war when he returned to Northamptonshire as a cobbler (Shoemaker)
He made no claims himself only provided information to those conducting the research until much later in life, so the Canadian eye witness reports could be equally if more suspect.
As Rob says the Tank Museum in Bovington have researched this in minute detail and have agreement from many other military reserachers around the globe as to the most likely claimant.
Suffice to say it's another one where there will never be complete agreement and I've no doubt future revisionists if they're so inclined will be able to "prove" that in fact Wittman survived and is living in South America.

By the way a great model though, given the Kand C early tigers are the same size or thereabouts as the Figarti Tigers maybe the Normandy versions will go with the Firefly with a little artistic license.

Regards to all
Clive

Clive,from Osprey Duel No2 Firefly V Tiger

Page 69

Conjecture leaves us with the few uncontested facts from the battle.As we have seen the NY (Northamptonshire Yeomanry)war diary recorded three Tigers destroyed at the exact time when and in the general location where Wittmans Tiger was destroyed.Furthermore the units account of the Battle was produced within a few weeks of the battle when no one in the regt realized the significance of what they were describing.No other competing interpretation of how Wittman came to be killed can remotely compete with the wealth of unequivocal impartial contempoary evidence that supports the claim of the NY.In all probabillity it was a woefully inexperienced Firefly gunner Joe Ekins who dispatched the veteran Panzer ace that afternoon.

In June 2006 David Wiley curator at the Bovington Tank museum commented 'its pretty much accepted now that Joe Ekins was the man that knocked out Wittman'.

Now if its ok for members to insult the integrity of a man who was THERE,in his TANK,on the DAY facing Wittman,by brushing him off as inexperienced and so he couldn't have done it,well then i feel free to say the following.Funny how the Canadian claim as come to light AFTER they knew who was in the Tank,whereas Joe Ekin and co had no idea.

But i guess the combo of being British AND inexperienced cancels that out

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

More chance than that Canadian Sherman hitting him!!

Rob

Not at 150 metres

Terry

 

[OzDigger]

Clive,from Osprey Duel No2 Firefly V Tiger

Page 69

Conjecture leaves us with the few uncontested facts from the battle.As we have seen the NY (Northamptonshire Yeomanry)war diary recorded three Tigers destroyed at the excact time when and in the general location where Wittmans Tiger was destroyed.Furthermore the units account of the Battle was produced within a few weeks of the battle when no one in the regt realized the significance of what they were describing.No other competing interpretation of how Wittman came to be killed can remotely compete with the wealth of unequivocal impartial contempoary evidence evidence that supports the claim of the NY.In all probabillity it was a woefully inexperienced Firefly gunner Joe Ekins who dispatched the veteran Panzer ace that afternoon.

In June 2006 David Wiley curator at the Bovington Tank museum commented 'its pretty much accepted now that Joe Ekins was the man that knocked out Wittman'.

Now if its ok for members to insult the integrity of a man who was THERE,in his TANK,on the DAY facing Wittman,by brushing him off as inexperienced and so he couldn't have done it,well then i feel free to say the following.Funny how the Canadian claim as come to light AFTER they knew who was in the Tank,whereas Joe Ekin and co had no idea.

But i guess the combo of being British AND inexperienced cancels that out

Rob

The Canadians didn't know about Wittman at the time either, they just recall hearing, then seeing, the turret of the Tiger being blown into the air, yet Ekins made no mention of the turret being blown off. Further more the Germans with Wittman at the time say they were in action against Canadian not British units. Why is the official German version being ignored?

 

[OzDigger]

Here's some more relevant information:

After the war, Ken Tout, who at the time of Operation Totalize was a member of C Squadron of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, published an account of the battle and of Wittmann’s demise and claimed Joe Ekins as his killer.

However, when researching his new book on the subject, he interviewed former members of A Squadron, Sherbrooke Fusiliers. In the book, for the first time, he does not claim Wittmann for the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry and acknowledges that other regiments were in the area at the time and engaged the attacking Tigers.

 

[Rob]

The Canadians didn't know about Wittman at the time either, they just recall hearing, then seeing, the turret of the Tiger being blown into the air, yet Ekins made no mention of the turret being blown off. Further more the Germans with Wittman at the time say they were in action against Canadian not British units. Why is the official German version being ignored?

Well Wittman and the Tanks with him had no idea Ekins and co were in the orchard,so would the Germans know this after the battle?.I don't understand why a guy after firing at it, watching the hit and then watched this tank explode as he reversed into the orchard,is considered either a liar or too inexperienced to be believed,whilst you are happy to believe the supposed contents of the War diary of the Canadians destroyed on Aug 8th.

Sorry Oz,but however you meant it you said you wouldn't believe an inexperienced Brit.I'm guessing you don't believe the RAF German fighters destroyed figures either then!

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

Well Wittman and the Tanks with him had no idea Ekins and co were in the orchard,so would the Germans know this after the battle?.I don't understand why a guy after firing at it, watching the hit and then watched this tank explode as he reversed into the orchard,is considered either a liar or too inexperienced to be believed,whilst you are happy to believe the supposed contents of the War diary of the Canadians destroyed on Aug 8th.

Sorry Oz,but however you meant it you said you wouldn't believe an inexperienced Brit.I'm guessing you don't believe the RAF German fighters destroyed figures either then!

Rob

Rob, I'm not saying that Ekins didn't destroy several Tigers at that time, which is amazing in itself. I'm saying it's unlikely that he destroyed Wittman's Tiger considering the relative position of the British and Canadian tank units in relation to Wittman and his cohorts at the time. For example the killing shot to Wittman's Tiger was to the left rear which was on the opposite side to where Ekin was.

 

[canucks]

WOW......Great detail.....on the turret and the welding looks so real.....Great product...........
Regards,
Canucks

 

[nasirkasmani]

WOW......Great detail.....on the turret and the welding looks so real.....Great product...........
Regards,
Canucks

cheeky.

 

[OzDigger]

In any case, it's of no real consequence to me who killed Wittman, same as The Red Baron imo as it's so long ago. However, it seems some members are getting a bit anxious about this matter, so let's agree to disagree and I will say no more on the subject.

No one could argue it's not a good model - or could they

 

[Rob]

Rob, I'm not saying that Ekins didn't destroy several Tigers at that time, which is amazing in itself. I'm saying it's unlikely that he destroyed Wittman's Tiger considering the relative position of the British and Canadian tank units in relation to Wittman and his cohorts at the time. For example the killing shot to Wittman's Tiger was to the left rear which was on the opposite side to where Ekin was.

Is it possible Wittman was hit from both sides,was there enough wreckage left to determine this?.Also was the left rear hit verified by the military,i know a French farmer claimed it was the other side.

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

a question i would like to ask.

since the turret of wittmann's tiger is completely blown off, i'm wondering how the germans recognise and id tagged the men inside?

i mean i expect 5 fully charred remains inside that wreck of a tank, so for all i know, the wrong remains might be inside the wrong grave?

 

[Rob]

a question i would like to ask.

since the turret of wittmann's tiger is completely blown off, i'm wondering how the germans recognise and id tagged the men inside?

i mean i expect 5 fully charred remains inside that wreck of a tank, so for all i know, the wrong remains might be inside the wrong grave?

Possible i guess,but if Wittman was known to be in that Tank on that day,and plus the fact if he wasn't he's REALLY late in reporting to his unit!

Rob