Prices (1 Viewer)

[Rutledge]

Those are indeed the facts Brad....Also I personally refuse to pay higher prices without noticeable improvements in quality of sculpts and painting....paying more and getting less and less????...I will be scrutinzing what I buy....buying LESS and....I will be much more selective........The only thing that doesn't seem to go up are most people's salaries; most collectors can only by pushed so far before they are pushed out of the hobby....Sad but a reality....Hard economic times for most ...and younger folks/collectors just starting will find it difficult to enter the hobby

What do they say in the commodities world - the best cure for high prices? High prices.

Any business will always offer lower end options for those cant afford the higher end items. Do people refuse to buy a car at all because they cant drive mercedes? Or not get college degrees because they cant afford tuition? No. Its why we have chevys and community colleges. :smile2:

Is it really a tragedy when someone has 100 toy soldiers instead of 200? Not to me, but that is an individual call. If it is for you, might be time to try another hobby.

Higher and higher prices may eventually pull demand down far enough where input costs would fall. Especially for a discretionary item like TS. It does seem to me that price elaticity of demand will kick in at some point. But that is just theoretical speculation on my part.

Bottom line, suggesting dire consequences are in store if companies dont do this or that is laughable. Ultimately the economics will drive behavior. And the market is much bigger than a few perrturbed collectors.

 

[Shannon Reuss]

Those are indeed the facts Brad....Also I personally refuse to pay higher prices without noticeable improvements in quality of sculpts and painting....paying more and getting less and less????...I will be scrutinzing what I buy....buying LESS and....I will be much more selective........The only thing that doesn't seem to go up are most people's salaries; most collectors can only by pushed so far before they are pushed out of the hobby....Sad but a reality....Hard economic times for most ...and younger folks/collectors just starting will find it difficult to enter the hobby

When my parents were children they could buy a candy bar for 10 cents. Now they are lucky to buy a candy bar for under $1.00. I recently talked with a local elderly lady who told me she got $3 a week plus room and board hired out as a housekeeper to help with income for her family with a half day off on Sunday. Cleaning services are easily $20-$50 an hour these days. I babysat for $1 an hour as a teen. Now my friends' kids can easily pull down $50 for two hours of babysitting sleeping children--more per hour than I made at my first nursing job as an RN back in the early 90's.
Bacon was 47 cents a pound in 1920--it just hit $5/lb here in Minnesota. Bread, 12 cents a loaf in 1920--just had a conversation with the owner of our local grocery store yesterday and the closest kind of bread he had to what I wanted was $5.95 a loaf. Bacon is bacon and bread is bread. I haven't seen major noticable improvements in the product from the 1920's versions to today but I have noticed that prices, salaries and the general cost of doing business naturally go up and have always done so historically, not as a vast conspiracy but because inflation and demand continue to go up and costs follow to meet that ever-increasing demand.

Buy what you like, what you are willing to pay for and what is meaningful to you and let others do the same. Be happy with your choices and let your fellow collectors be happy with theirs.
Regards,

 

[thebritfarmer]

What do they say in the commodities world - the best cure for high prices? High prices.

Any business will always offer lower end options for those cant afford the higher end items. Do people refuse to buy a car at all because they cant drive mercedes? Or not get college degrees because they cant afford tuition? No. Its why we have chevys and community colleges. :smile2:

Is it really a tragedy when someone has 100 toy soldiers instead of 200? Not to me, but that is an individual call. If it is for you, might be time to try another hobby.

Higher and higher prices may eventually pull demand down far enough where input costs would fall. Especially for a discretionary item like TS. It does seem to me that price elaticity of demand will kick in at some point. But that is just theoretical speculation on my part.

Bottom line, suggesting dire consequences are in store if companies dont do this or that is laughable. Ultimately the economics will drive behavior. And the market is much bigger than a few perrturbed collectors.

Although not so much in the toy soldier world. Price with in each company seem to be the same across each of their ranges (with some exceptions). I can only think of one company that has 3 different price points.

 

[Rutledge]

Although not so much in the toy soldier world. Price with in each company seem to be the same across each of their ranges (with some exceptions). I can only think of one company that has 3 different price points.

But if demand is there at lower prices, and everyone is essentially clumped at the higher end, 'somebody smart' will eventually develop a product line that delivers a satisfactory price/value relationship at a lower price point. Its what capitalism does so well, and that a centrally planned economy does not. (brief commercial brought to you by "Atlas Shrugged" LOL)

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Although not so much in the toy soldier world. Price with in each company seem to be the same across each of their ranges (with some exceptions). I can only think of one company that has 3 different price points.

Which company has 3 price points?

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Shannon

It isn't the slow, gradual rise in prices and wages over long periods of time that is the problem. It's the very rapid, large increases in model prices which have roughly doubled in just 3 or 4 years that is the problem. That increase is way faster than general price and wage changes during the same period, especially since prices for some items and some wages have fallen in that time period. Add that toy soldiers are a luxury item, and there is going to be some impact on collecting. Tanks in the $125 - $150 range were affordable to me and I bought a lot of them. Once they went over $200 and had fewer crew, it was less affordable. Now that tank and crew sets are pushing over $300, it would take a very special tank model for me to afford it. Part of the reason I am more into NAPs and SOE these days.

Terry

 

[Vezzolf]

Shannon

It isn't the slow, gradual rise in prices and wages over long periods of time that is the problem. It's the very rapid, large increases in model prices which have roughly doubled in just 3 or 4 years that is the problem. That increase is way faster than general price and wage changes during the same period, especially since prices for some items and some wages have fallen in that time period. Add that toy soldiers are a luxury item, and there is going to be some impact on collecting. Tanks in the $125 - $150 range were affordable to me and I bought a lot of them. Once they went over $200 and had fewer crew, it was less affordable. Now that tank and crew sets are pushing over $300, it would take a very special tank model for me to afford it. Part of the reason I am more into NAPs and SOE these days.

Terry

Absolutely Correct and well said Terry...;We're not talking price increases over 20 years; we're talking almost double in 3-4 years...Inflation has not been been 50% in 3 years...with Tanks and Crew sets pushing $300 most of us will not be purchasing too often....Simply a reality

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Absolutely Correct and well said Terry...;We're not talking price increases over 20 years; we're talking almost double in 3-4 years...Inflation has not been been 50% in 3 years...with Tanks and Crew sets pushing $300 most of us will not be purchasing too often....Simply a reality

That's 100% in 3 or 4 years. {sm2}

There are still a core of well off collectors who can afford the high cost of new models, and parts of the world which are doing better economically than North America. All I'm saying is that the rapid price increases are having a big impact and are causing shifts in different groups of collector's buying strategies.

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

Just as Terry has gotten into Naps and SOE, so I have become interested in Trophy. For $300 I can get some real interesting sets, instead of just one tank.

 

[Shannon Reuss]

But these pieces aren't being made in the US or Canada, they are being made in China where the domestic economy has changed drastically and continues to change as demand for consumer goods is exploding, the need for more raw materials is skyrocketing and everyone wants and needs more pay to acquire what is now important to them.
In my job I work with multiple China-based companies on a daily basis as well as meeting weekly with several Chinese nationals currently working at Mayo Clinic who are very helpful in answering my questions about the economy and culture of China and how it has changed in their lifetimes. I feel the combination of these two ongoing experiences has given me a lot of insight into why prices have changed so much in the past several years and I find it very short-sighted for someone to explain everything by intimating that 'the manufacturers are just greedy.'
I agree with Terry's statement that 'the rapid price increases are having a big impact and are causing shifts in different groups of collector's buying strategies.' Of course they are. I'm just tired of the continual complaining and oversimplified rationales I see over and over here that it is the fault of the manufacturers.
Incidently if you recall, Andy C. Neilson mentioned that King & Country should have raised prices on older products earlier to match the new costs they were incurring to rerun older releases but that they held off several years to keep the prices down as long as possible for collectors. No one ever seems to remember that part, only that finally the company did have to raise the prices in line with the higher cost of labor and material.
I know you see this mainly from the viewpoint of a collector but you also need to see it from the dealer, manufacturer, factory and factory worker view as well to truly see all the complexities that make up the reason for the increases. This is a global economy issue and I think the manufacturers are doing a great job as they attempt to keep the quality you are used to while keeping costs down as best they can and still working to improve the products...even in this economy.
Regards,

 

[Mike97]

Shannon

It isn't the slow, gradual rise in prices and wages over long periods of time that is the problem. It's the very rapid, large increases in model prices which have roughly doubled in just 3 or 4 years that is the problem. That increase is way faster than general price and wage changes during the same period, especially since prices for some items and some wages have fallen in that time period. Add that toy soldiers are a luxury item, and there is going to be some impact on collecting. Tanks in the $125 - $150 range were affordable to me and I bought a lot of them. Once they went over $200 and had fewer crew, it was less affordable. Now that tank and crew sets are pushing over $300, it would take a very special tank model for me to afford it. Part of the reason I am more into NAPs and SOE these days.

Terry

Very well said. It's also motivated me to spend more time on Dio building than toy soldier buying...
mike

 

[joesgis]

Discipline is the only way to stay in this hobby
U choose a company, a range and stick with it
I know it will be hard to follow with all the new
ranges comming out.
Solution: want a new range sell the old one
which i think is happening already by looking
at the for sale thread
The bottom line is DISCIPLINE

I've been working on that discipline thing...it's hard but I think I'm coming along. I hear ya regarding selling older stuff to buy new pieces. I have performed this cycle many times, often to quite satisfactory results. :smile2:

 

[Northgate Woods]

Shannon & Moderators,
Could you please explain to me why these Price Increase threads appear only in the K&C Section of the Forum. Should not they be transferred or started in another area of general discussion. Other manufacturers have increase their prices by approx 10% but we don't find these posts appearing there.
My interest in this Forum centres on the K&C and JJD sections and I am totally sick and tired of reading the same old rubbish. I ask you nicely to remove these posts to a nuetral area and let those who are interested in reading about dioramas, new releases and events related to that manufacturer have a peaceful life.
Cheers Howard

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

I use to buy every K&C WWII figure released until about three years ago. Then I started being more selective buying less and less every year. Luckily I still make a comfortable living, but I am being priced out of the hobby as well. I buy very few WWII releases any more. I do still buy most of the ACW figures from the major manufacturers. I have been dusting off the paint brushes to start painting figures again, but even the price of kits is skyrocketing. I have also seen a dramatic price increases in my 1:6 business inventory. Figures have almost doubled in price in the last twelve years. At the Valley Forge show I only bought two sets of civil war figures, but I did buy a nice Keith Rocco print

 

[jomartvr]

Shannon & Moderators,
Could you please explain to me why these Price Increase threads appear only in the K&C Section of the Forum. Should not they be transferred or started in another area of general discussion. Other manufacturers have increase their prices by approx 10% but we don't find these posts appearing there.
My interest in this Forum centres on the K&C and JJD sections and I am totally sick and tired of reading the same old rubbish. I ask you nicely to remove these posts to a nuetral area and let those who are interested in reading about dioramas, new releases and events related to that manufacturer have a peaceful life.
Cheers Howard

I think that one reason why this discussion is in the KC section is that their products are not discounted. In particular, KC dealers can lose their franchise if they are caught discounting the merchandise. In contrast, I you look hard enough on EBAY you can purchase new Britains figures at substantial discounts. FOr example, some retail figures sell for $80, however, they can be purchased for $59, plus shipping. There is a lot of variation in Britains pricing which in the long run works in their favor. That is to say they are still collectable for what I perceive to be a reasonable price. I love KC, however, I have a hard time rationalizing $37-$40 per figure. Personally, unless KC finds another target audience outside of North America and western Europe, I suspect that they are going to lose a lot of collectors due to a weak dollar and unemployment in the USA.


Just my 2 cents.
Benjamin

 

[Warlord 1]

I personally consider a discussion on price increases important and pertinent on this thread. K&C seems to be the company with the highest increase in the past three years, however, Collectors Showcase (unfortunatly for them) is trying to keep up. I think it is a mistake for both companies. It is reassuring to see how other people feel about the skyrocketing prices and their strategy to handle it. Regards, Larry.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Shannon & Moderators,
Could you please explain to me why these Price Increase threads appear only in the K&C Section of the Forum. Should not they be transferred or started in another area of general discussion. Other manufacturers have increase their prices by approx 10% but we don't find these posts appearing there.
My interest in this Forum centres on the K&C and JJD sections and I am totally sick and tired of reading the same old rubbish. I ask you nicely to remove these posts to a nuetral area and let those who are interested in reading about dioramas, new releases and events related to that manufacturer have a peaceful life.
Cheers Howard

Because K&C is by far the industry leader and largest TS company. I wouldn't read anything into it that price discussions are always and only on the K&C threads. That's just where most of the forum members congregate as many of the collectors have large K&C collections and smaller numbers of pieces from other manufacturers. K&C has also held off on price increases in the past so the increases now look especially big. And there are some newer companies who are producing TS at lower prices than K&C including CS, TGM as well as older companies whoes prices are lower like Britains and Trophy.

Moving the thread to a neutral spot will only result in the same posts but will still reference K&C by name or some "cute" code word like industry leader. I'm a long time, serious collector of K&C and I'm OK with the discussion being on the K&C threads.

Terry

 

[Gustavflyer]

I think that one reason why this discussion is in the KC section is that their products are not discounted. In particular, KC dealers can lose their franchise if they are caught discounting the merchandise. In contrast, I you look hard enough on EBAY you can purchase new Britains figures at substantial discounts. FOr example, some retail figures sell for $80, however, they can be purchased for $59, plus shipping. There is a lot of variation in Britains pricing which in the long run works in their favor. That is to say they are still collectable for what I perceive to be a reasonable price. I love KC, however, I have a hard time rationalizing $37-$40 per figure. Personally, unless KC finds another target audience outside of North America and western Europe, I suspect that they are going to lose a lot of collectors due to a weak dollar and unemployment in the USA.


Just my 2 cents.
Benjamin

Well put Benjamin, and I am out, not whining or complaining here, just not going to go that far for a fig, good luck to all who still collect!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

But these pieces aren't being made in the US or Canada, they are being made in China where the domestic economy has changed drastically and continues to change as demand for consumer goods is exploding, the need for more raw materials is skyrocketing and everyone wants and needs more pay to acquire what is now important to them.
In my job I work with multiple China-based companies on a daily basis as well as meeting weekly with several Chinese nationals currently working at Mayo Clinic who are very helpful in answering my questions about the economy and culture of China and how it has changed in their lifetimes. I feel the combination of these two ongoing experiences has given me a lot of insight into why prices have changed so much in the past several years and I find it very short-sighted for someone to explain everything by intimating that 'the manufacturers are just greedy.'
I agree with Terry's statement that 'the rapid price increases are having a big impact and are causing shifts in different groups of collector's buying strategies.' Of course they are. I'm just tired of the continual complaining and oversimplified rationales I see over and over here that it is the fault of the manufacturers.
Incidently if you recall, Andy C. Neilson mentioned that King & Country should have raised prices on older products earlier to match the new costs they were incurring to rerun older releases but that they held off several years to keep the prices down as long as possible for collectors. No one ever seems to remember that part, only that finally the company did have to raise the prices in line with the higher cost of labor and material.
I know you see this mainly from the viewpoint of a collector but you also need to see it from the dealer, manufacturer, factory and factory worker view as well to truly see all the complexities that make up the reason for the increases. This is a global economy issue and I think the manufacturers are doing a great job as they attempt to keep the quality you are used to while keeping costs down as best they can and still working to improve the products...even in this economy.
Regards,

I have always believed that the price increases were no greedy plot by the manufacturers but a forced reaction to the increased costs of wages and raw materials in China and the drop in the value of the US Dollar. Anyone interested enough can get info on the rise in China costs and where the US dollar is vs other currencies. About 4 years ago, the Canadian dollar was at $0.75 - $0.80 and now it is over $1.00, an increase of about 25%. But really more a drop in the US dollar. That means even without increased wage and material costs in China, tank prices would have gone up 25% just from the fall in value of the $US.

In order to keep customers, I would bet that the TS manufacturer's profit margins are lower now than 4 years ago.

Terry

 

[Rutledge]

But these pieces aren't being made in the US or Canada, they are being made in China where the domestic economy has changed drastically and continues to change as demand for consumer goods is exploding, the need for more raw materials is skyrocketing and everyone wants and needs more pay to acquire what is now important to them.
In my job I work with multiple China-based companies on a daily basis as well as meeting weekly with several Chinese nationals currently working at Mayo Clinic who are very helpful in answering my questions about the economy and culture of China and how it has changed in their lifetimes. I feel the combination of these two ongoing experiences has given me a lot of insight into why prices have changed so much in the past several years and I find it very short-sighted for someone to explain everything by intimating that 'the manufacturers are just greedy.'
I agree with Terry's statement that 'the rapid price increases are having a big impact and are causing shifts in different groups of collector's buying strategies.' Of course they are. I'm just tired of the continual complaining and oversimplified rationales I see over and over here that it is the fault of the manufacturers.
Incidently if you recall, Andy C. Neilson mentioned that King & Country should have raised prices on older products earlier to match the new costs they were incurring to rerun older releases but that they held off several years to keep the prices down as long as possible for collectors. No one ever seems to remember that part, only that finally the company did have to raise the prices in line with the higher cost of labor and material.
I know you see this mainly from the viewpoint of a collector but you also need to see it from the dealer, manufacturer, factory and factory worker view as well to truly see all the complexities that make up the reason for the increases. This is a global economy issue and I think the manufacturers are doing a great job as they attempt to keep the quality you are used to while keeping costs down as best they can and still working to improve the products...even in this economy.
Regards,

These are absolutely the points I have made (tried to, at least) many times. Its really quite amazing. Folks seem perfectly fine if the way to keep costs down FOR THEM is to continue to pay highly skilled Chinese laborers $2 a day.