Pricing, where's your limit?? (1 Viewer)

[jazzeum]

This has nothing to do with price but as Brett said I don't see WB as a serious entrant in the WW II market. I think that ship has already sailed, even more so when it comes to RAF, where K & C has no peer. This is to take nothing away from Dambusters, which looks to be a great release, but when it comes to WW II K & C is pre-eminent. They got to be where they are because of WW II and I don't see them giving up that position. Yes, there are other companies that compete with them but they don't put out the amount of product that K & C does.

 

[HistoryfortheAges]

Agreed, I don't think K&C has a lot of serious competition in the WW2 range today... I do think that they face stiffer competition in other ranges that they currently produce and may face very stiff competition in ranges that they may have considered starting but have yet to do so...

In the next decade or two, I believe all toy soldier manufacturers will face serious competition from their sins of the past... That is, all of the product that they have already produced and sold in the last 15 years or so will eventually find its way to the secondary market at much lower prices than they can currently manufacture new product today or in the future... It will be interesting to see how that plays out... {eek3}

 

[Mitch]

Your obviously confusing me for other posters past or present!!! I certainly don't hold K&C in the manner you speak nor do I feel the need to defend any manufacturer so, the comments you make about K&C which, I addressed are exactly that addressing comments you made. I have voiced questions about all the manufacturers good and bad and, if something seems strange I mention it. It may seem strange to me in a micro level but, I am not taking the whole macro picture into account from running a TS company. Strange to me may be perfectly sensible to that owner. However, on a discussion forum they are all relevant and, equally, all open for rebuttal.

It could have been CS, TG or FL and, I would have answered the same. You focus on one manufacturer when you make the assertions and assumptions about what they plan to do or, what will happen in the future which, none of us even the manufacturers cannot predict precisely. I asked why not say other collectors are disenchanted with the high prices Figarti and FL are on the high side so, I asked why just focus on K&C?? as either the high price point or, that their collectors are disenchanted?

Britain's are a fine company and I think their lineage speaks for itself but, they cannot compete against K&C in terms of WWII and, that's just a fact. I don't see what they have produced or are producing as any ''aggressive'' market action to try and further lure these disenchanted droves you mention away from buying what they primarily like.

A handful of figures does not seem to me a range. now, it may be with their heritage that they feel addressing some of the RAF's greatest individuals that it will be interesting for their eclectic collectors but, as has been said before whatever the sculpting abilities these manufacturers are not compatible.

Price may well be important and I am sure it is but, at the end of the day style, quality, detail etc play as important a role in what people will decide to buy or not buy and, that's down to the individual.

A valid point about the secondary market was made that we as collectors, dealers and manufacturers will need to address is the disparity of what ''second hand'' items are going for as compared to new retail items. This will be an important issue for everyone in the hobby not, the perceived aggressive moves of boardrooms and owners or, the god like stance they may or may not hold.

Well, IMO of course!!
Mitch

Interesting commentary.

WB has also released a Harris figure and a fighter pilot. Could be the beginnings of a new range, certainly appears that way. WB appears to be giving some thought to being more aggressive about 20th Century subjects.

That's right, excuse me. Heaven forbid that anyone raise questions or observations about what K&C is doing in the pricing department. Yes, Andy is a God and is beyond reproach.

Don't get me wrong, I still buy K&C products along with WB and FL. I've made purchases from some of the others as well. I'm saying that it seems from this discussion as though some collectors have gone away from K&C figures to Britain’s because of price. Are you wishing to ignore this? I do find it interesting that the K&C fans wish to deflect attention away from the fact that Britain’s has done a much better job of controlling their prices. Is this in some way contradictory? Or is there some other underlying personal agenda when accusations are made in an attempt to discredit an opinion because certain individuals might not agree with said opinion?

If you're not interested in the in's and out's of the industry then why continue to engage in a discussion regarding the in's and out's? When I first started collecting while I was in high school and college, WB figures were $25, K&C figures were $25 and St. Petersburg was in the $100's. There seems to be a bit of a disparity between current pricing of WB and K&C figures, wouldn't you agree? Plus, FL has come into the game with products that are close to St. Petersburg in quality for a fraction of the price.

Personally, I admire what Andy has done. He has constructed a fine business that puts out great products that I enjoy. I also enjoy products from the other makers as well. I also personally believe that Ken Osen is the best figure sculptor and that FL produces high quality painting on their figures. These questions and observations are raised because I wish to engage in a discussion about where other collectors think the market is heading. I do not wish to engage in a knock down drag out fight over whose company and products are the best, worst, etc... We all have our own cultural, educational and professional backgrounds and sources of information that help us shape our individual perception of the market. Fortunately we also have this forum to gain other perspectives.

IMO all of our favorite TS companies have their own special appeal. I've never met a TS I didn't like. And frankly, the sky's the limit as far as I'm concerned. But, as a discerning collector who appreciates his purchasing options, I am interested in the changes (pricing and otherwise) that occur within the market.

Best
Shane

 

[jazzeum]

Agreed, I don't think K&C has a lot of serious competition in the WW2 range today... I do think that they face stiffer competition in other ranges that they currently produce and may face very stiff competition in ranges that they may have considered starting but have yet to do so...

In the next decade or two, I believe all toy soldier manufacturers will face serious competition from their sins of the past... That is, all of the product that they have already produced and sold in the last 15 years or so will eventually find its way to the secondary market at much lower prices than they can currently manufacture new product today or in the future... It will be interesting to see how that plays out... {eek3}

We may already see that happening in a certain respect. The range that started it all was Arnhem and they used to command hefty prices. That may be over. Last week a Bren Gun Carrier sold for 137 {eek3} In halcyon days that would have sold for 500. Similarly, I was recently able to obtain a Jeep at a price that would have been unheard of in years past. Something may be happening.

 

[swalterh]

I agree with a lot of the comments made regarding K&C’s preeminence in WWII subjects. I think any other company looking to get into WWII in any serious way is going to have a tall mountain to climb to match what K&C has been able to accomplish.

It seems to me that in order to gain any real traction in this subject area a company has to commit to doing a fairly extensive AFV range that is seen by collectors as being compatible with their figure ranges. IMO any effort in this direction has the potential to be an expensive undertaking. AFV’s involve a bit more time and attention during development and production than a building or smaller accessories.

I really like the Dambuster piece. Alan Ball has done a really nice job on this and some of the other WB releases. Personally, I’m not a real big RAF guy outside of Battle of Britain related items. Plus, I’m more of a “little friends” (i.e. fighter) guy. But, I appreciate the significance of the commemoration piece.

I don’t really understand the pilots without planes move. Maybe WB is going to give us planes, who knows? Again, I think K&C has this market pretty well cornered, with a few smaller participants in other areas like WWI. And as some have mentioned, WB and K&C figs and accessories aren’t really compatible. So, a WB pilot with a K&C plane might be suspect.

I also agree that many TS related items will be available on the secondary market at much cheaper prices later on. Take Conte products for example. Here we are ten years or so later and you can pick up stuff remarkably cheap. I know that the painting is suspect on a lot of these items. But, I repaint all of my figures anyway. Because of this I’m really enjoying picking up stuff that was overproduced. I notice a lot of the early Britain’s products are becoming available at marked down rates as well. My workbench is currently overflowing with figures. {eek3}

All I know is that I’m sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see what is going to happen next. I think that this is one of the most exciting times to be a TS collector or dealer. The growing range of products is just mind blowing.

I've enjoyed reading the comments from everyone who is willing to contribute their thoughts. The varying perspectives that have been shared makes for an interesting and fun discussion.

 

[wwiibuff]

We may already see that happening in a certain respect. The range that started it all was Arnhem and they used to command hefty prices. That may be over. Last week a Bren Gun Carrier sold for 137 {eek3} In halcyon days that would have sold for 500. Similarly, I was recently able to obtain a Jeep at a price that would have been unheard of in years past. Something may be happening.

I've seen several K&C items that were produced in the last 5 years or so going for less than original retail on ebay. I think we may see more and more of this in the future from many manufacturers as there has been so much product made by all the last few years.

As far as the question of this thread... for me personally, I've become more selective in what I purchase. I try and pick up some bargains on ebay. I'm still in the process of catching up on some retired pieces that I missed and this is a good thing in some cases as they are still available for less than the new offerings. I'm very selective on any new product mainly due to the higher prices. There is so much stuff still available that I need at past lower prices, that I don't really worry about getting much of the new stuff.

 

[TomB]

I've seen several K&C items that were produced in the last 5 years or so going for less than original retail on ebay. I think we may see more and more of this in the future from many manufacturers as there has been so much product made by all the last few years.

As far as the question of this thread... for me personally, I've become more selective in what I purchase. I try and pick up some bargains on ebay. I'm still in the process of catching up on some retired pieces that I missed and this is a good thing in some cases as they are still available for less than the new offerings. I'm very selective on any new product mainly due to the higher prices. There is so much stuff still available that I need at past lower prices, that I don't really worry about getting much of the new stuff.

Your E Bay purchase's is an interesting subject and good price wise...you mentioned the mass's of TS now on the market and increase in manufacturers.....do you think that there will eventfully be to much choice out there....and higher price's will have an adverse effect on the TS trade?,,,,,,kid's are not interested in TS these day....everything has to move and shoot...anyway they could not afford the price's.....who is going to replace the older gen in the collecting business ?....cheers TomB .

 

[wwiibuff]

Your E Bay purchase's is an interesting subject and good price wise...you mentioned the mass's of TS now on the market and increase in manufacturers.....do you think that there will eventfully be to much choice out there....and higher price's will have an adverse effect on the TS trade?,,,,,,kid's are not interested in TS these day....everything has to move and shoot...anyway they could not afford the price's.....who is going to replace the older gen in the collecting business ?....cheers TomB .

Tom,

I think there are still people getting into the hobby, but rather than it being younger collectors, it may be middle aged men that used to enjoy soldiers as a boy and have decided to get back into the toy soldier world on a more detailed scale.

Also, there really is so much choice out there now and has been for the last several years, I just don't see how all this product is going to wind up with a home without some having to be sold at a discount. Just my opinion of course. Should be a classic example of basic supply and demand economics really.

 

[TomB]

Tom,

I think there are still people getting into the hobby, but rather than it being younger collectors, it may be middle aged men that used to enjoy soldiers as a boy and have decided to get back into the toy soldier world on a more detailed scale.

Also, there really is so much choice out there now and has been for the last several years, I just don't see how all this product is going to wind up with a home without some having to be sold at a discount. Just my opinion of course. Should be a classic example of basic supply and demand economics really.

I t is good to know there are still people joining the hobby, hate to see it sort of fade away.....Supply and Demand....I think you are correct there.....there is some brilliant TS on the market.. but .you pay for quality...Meat is a good example....the El Cheapo meat you can sole your shoe's with....What about "Beginners Sets" for new collectors...not as flash as the good stuff but reasonably cheaper and less quality painted... though that would only put more stuff on the market I guess...cheers TomB

 

[OzDigger]

Tom,

I think there are still people getting into the hobby, but rather than it being younger collectors, it may be middle aged men that used to enjoy soldiers as a boy and have decided to get back into the toy soldier world on a more detailed scale.

Also, there really is so much choice out there now and has been for the last several years, I just don't see how all this product is going to wind up with a home without some having to be sold at a discount. Just my opinion of course. Should be a classic example of basic supply and demand economics really.

I have noticed a number of younger guys becoming interested in collecting military models following many hours playing console War games, I think there's still hope for TS in the future.

 

[uksubs]

This has nothing to do with price but as Brett said I don't see WB as a serious entrant in the WW II market. I think that ship has already sailed, even more so when it comes to RAF, where K & C has no peer. This is to take nothing away from Dambusters, which looks to be a great release, but when it comes to WW II K & C is pre-eminent. They got to be where they are because of WW II and I don't see them giving up that position. Yes, there are other companies that compete with them but they don't put out the amount of product that K & C does.

Just because K&C make the most WW2 stuff out there at the moment does not mean they get everyone buying there product , and I can see a lot of people who collect Corgi 1/32 planes being interested in W BRITAIN making RAF. Figures and only found out yesterday that FOV. Are making 1/32 scale RAF and Luftwaffe figures in a new range but doubt it will affect KC sell

 

[The Military Workshop]

Just because K&C make the most WW2 stuff out there at the moment does not mean they get everyone buying there product , and I can see a lot of people who collect Corgi 1/32 planes being interested in W BRITAIN making RAF. Figures and only found out yesterday that FOV. Are making 1/32 scale RAF and Luftwaffe figures in a new range but doubt it will affect KC sell

Interesting points about Corgi and FOV. Based on what I know of my K&C RAF collectors I would say hardly any impact on K&C. FOV no longer has an agent in Australia and Corgi mainly a different collector base. Hopefully any Corgi fans will convert to K&C {sm4}

 

[uksubs]

Interesting points about Corgi and FOV. Based on what I know of my K&C RAF collectors I would say hardly any impact on K&C. FOV no longer has an agent in Australia and Corgi mainly a different collector base. Hopefully any Corgi fans will convert to K&C {sm4}

Agree Brett can't see people buying Britian RAF figures to go with K&C warbird as I think Britain figures are 1/32 scale .I know my friend stop buying KC. Warbirds for Corgi 1/32 version as he think there better detail and better value for money and after getting the Corgi RAF Mustang I have to agree but won't stop me be buying a KC Meteor if and when one made

 

[RPZ]

Tom,

I think there are still people getting into the hobby, but rather than it being younger collectors, it may be middle aged men that used to enjoy soldiers as a boy and have decided to get back into the toy soldier world on a more detailed scale.

Also, there really is so much choice out there now and has been for the last several years, I just don't see how all this product is going to wind up with a home without some having to be sold at a discount. Just my opinion of course. Should be a classic example of basic supply and demand economics really.

That's me. Though l was into model kits in my youth in big way, and my historical interest grew intensely (I'm overloaded with books) .

I am not TS collector per se - I have neither the wallet nor currently the space. My interest now is rather acquiring a few pieces in certain areas and creating dioramas to display them with the emphasis on quality as opposed to quantity.

 

[wwiibuff]

Agree Brett can't see people buying Britian RAF figures to go with K&C warbird as I think Britain figures are 1/32 scale .I know my friend stop buying KC. Warbirds for Corgi 1/32 version as he think there better detail and better value for money and after getting the Corgi RAF Mustang I have to agree but won't stop me be buying a KC Meteor if and when one made

I welcome WB's RAF offerings and hope they do more. Most of my airplane collecion is 1/32 consisting of 21st Century, Corgi, FOV, and model kits I build myself. Although I have an extensive K&C collection of RAF, USAAF, and LUFT, I actually don't own any K&C airplanes. My K&C air figures I do photograph with my 1/32 planes, but they are too big for them. I do have some Corgi, Frontline, 1/32 figures that scalewise go great with my planes, so having more 1/32 pilots from WB will be great for me.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Well, I guess I lost interest with KC at $35+ per figure. St Pete lost my interest at $125+, FL still has it but by a thread at $70 and that's really only with the Roman line. Figarti will always have it so long as they do modern but their figures are hit or miss.

The thing I always found interesting as a wargamer was I could go to a wargaming show and buy a Tiger tank, fully painted, 15mm scale for like $20. If I were to extrapolate that out to a 60mm scale Tiger tank then by my math that gets me to approximately $80. Now I can give some bend for painting detail but it still seems like tanks are like $240+ anymore. Admittedly, my 15mm tiger tank comes without a crew so that would need to be added to the mix.

One would think if the costs of materials are rising then that would affect all ranges across the board- if were talking apples to apples- perhaps 15mm tanks arent polystone??? I dont know. If not, then maybe the 60mm crowd might want to consider manufacturing with whatever the 15mm crowd is using. Still, if both the 15mm and 60mm manufacturers are using polystone, one would think the 60mm folks would get some economy of scale by buying more raw material for production.

Either way, the hobby will figure it out.

 

[trooper]

The thing that strikes me about this discussion is that most comments deal only with certain companies, most of whom have their production from China. It could well be that the problem is the costs incurred by having to order, (and pay),for bulk quantities and having them shipped for thousands of miles before sales. On the other hand no one seems able to mention the comparatively low prices offered by the "cottage" industries who produce in house and have complete control over that production. Figures are commissioned, moulded and cast as needed, are never retired, and are usually available in either matt or gloss and in kit form for those who like to paint their own. Could it be that these companies have got it right? Trooper

 

[TomB]

Well, I guess I lost interest with KC at $35+ per figure. St Pete lost my interest at $125+, FL still has it but by a thread at $70 and that's really only with the Roman line. Figarti will always have it so long as they do modern but their figures are hit or miss.

The thing I always found interesting as a wargamer was I could go to a wargaming show and buy a Tiger tank, fully painted, 15mm scale for like $20. If I were to extrapolate that out to a 60mm scale Tiger tank then by my math that gets me to approximately $80. Now I can give some bend for painting detail but it still seems like tanks are like $240+ anymore. Admittedly, my 15mm tiger tank comes without a crew so that would need to be added to the mix.

One would think if the costs of materials are rising then that would affect all ranges across the board- if were talking apples to apples- perhaps 15mm tanks arent polystone??? I dont know. If not, then maybe the 60mm crowd might want to consider manufacturing with whatever the 15mm crowd is using. Still, if both the 15mm and 60mm manufacturers are using polystone, one would think the 60mm folks would get some economy of scale by buying more raw material for production.

Either way, the hobby will figure it out.

What is polystone ? is it some type of unbreakable plastic ? is it stronger than resin or a resin type liquid mix ?..curious ..I agree on the economy bit I imagine they already buy in bulk ...cheers TomB

 

[RPZ]

Well, I guess I lost interest with KC at $35+ per figure. St Pete lost my interest at $125+, FL still has it but by a thread at $70 and that's really only with the Roman line. Figarti will always have it so long as they do modern but their figures are hit or miss.

The thing I always found interesting as a wargamer was I could go to a wargaming show and buy a Tiger tank, fully painted, 15mm scale for like $20. If I were to extrapolate that out to a 60mm scale Tiger tank then by my math that gets me to approximately $80. Now I can give some bend for painting detail but it still seems like tanks are like $240+ anymore. Admittedly, my 15mm tiger tank comes without a crew so that would need to be added to the mix.

One would think if the costs of materials are rising then that would affect all ranges across the board- if were talking apples to apples- perhaps 15mm tanks arent polystone??? I dont know. If not, then maybe the 60mm crowd might want to consider manufacturing with whatever the 15mm crowd is using. Still, if both the 15mm and 60mm manufacturers are using polystone, one would think the 60mm folks would get some economy of scale by buying more raw material for production.

Either way, the hobby will figure it out.

I notice too that there are some gross disparities in the pricing of figures.

There are the large scale 1/6 etc, very detailed, with real cloth clothing, detailed accessories etc which are priced very cheaply compared to simple cast and painted 54/60mm figures.

Shipping from China is not really an issue; it is a relatively small percentage of a surface rate shipment per unit. And not to downplay it too much, but painting figures production line style is not that expensive in China where labor costs are so low.

 

[ostrein]

What is polystone ? is it some type of unbreakable plastic ? is it stronger than resin or a resin type liquid mix ?..curious ..I agree on the economy bit I imagine they already buy in bulk ...cheers TomB

Polystone is a compound made up largely of polyurethane resin mixed with powdered stone additives. Polystone has a stone like feel, but is much easier to sculpt. It is more cost effective and less heavy than traditional stone media. Polystone is a manufacturing medium used for cast sculptures, it is hard to find one that delivers a cleaner, more substantial representation of an original sculpture than a product manufactured in Polystone. Polystone has a significant weight, a porcelain like feel to the touch, and an incredible ability to capture the most minute detail, making it unsurpassed in collectible manufacturing materials. Polystone does not have to be fired like porcelain, which gives it much more flexibility in painting variations.


Oliver