"Refugees on the Road" (1 Viewer)

[Warrior]

Andy has made them accurate enough and given them a lot of character so the pieces could stir up uncomfortable images in the minds of some people.

Pictures of these refugees could stir up "uncomfortable images" in the minds of some people; talk about putting 2 and 2 together and getting 22, Germans taking pictures of refugees>off they go to the gas chamber.

Really?

Ok then.

We've all seen newsreel images of refugees displaced along the side of the road in Belgium, France, Poland, Russia, etc, etc; who do you think shot those images, Dad with his new camera so the family could view them after the war? No, the GERMANS did as they steamrolled Europe.

Are any of you familiar with the image of the Frenchman sobbing his eyes out as the Germans paraded through Paris; again, not shot by his wife while on vacation in Paris, it was shot by the Germans.

What a headscratcher all of this is.

Really.

 

[Combat]

I don't have any problem with these figures. In fact, it may be useful to have an occasional reminder that war isn't just about shiny uniforms and fancy machines. There is an element of human suffering involved. Even though this is just a hobby and most of us collect for fun, it also depicts violent events and episodes from history. To ignore that as "bad taste" would be unfortunate in my opinion.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Just thought I'd look in and see if the saga is continuing. Ummm...yup! Well, the K&C folks must be having a chuckle over this. You know what they say, "any publicity is good publicity." Even detractors of these pieces have contributed over the past few days to their ultimate sales success.

And let me just confer here with the Great Carnac....he says, check Ebay listings for these figures in three years; you will be astonished by the going prices if you can find them at all! (That answer was hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar and set on Funk and Wagnall's porch overnight.)

 

[Alex]

Those figures are not offensive at all..

Even if they were wearing the yellow star they wouldn't be..

If a museum decides one day to depict a concentration camp using these figures andprevious SS releases from K&C, why would it be offensive ?

There's one main reason why people should learn history and as you know it's because history always repeats itself and we always do the same errors again and again, from a civilization to another.

Even depicting a nazi concentration camp in a museum wouldn't be a case of bad taste for me... It would be a nice way to show the young what happened less than a century ago. Now kids only know WWII history through video games like Call of Duty !

Of course, there's no point for me in depicting a concentration camp in my home ...

Alex

 

[Rob]

Those figures are not offensive at all..

Even if they were wearing the yellow star they wouldn't be..

If a museum decides one day to depict a concentration camp using these figures andprevious SS releases from K&C, why would it be offensive ?

There's one main reason why people should learn history and as you know it's because history always repeats itself and we always do the same errors again and again, from a civilization to another.

Even depicting a nazi concentration camp in a museum wouldn't be a case of bad taste for me... It would be a nice way to show the young what happened less than a century ago. Now kids only know WWII history through video games like Call of Duty !

Of course, there's no point for me in depicting a concentration camp in my home ...

Alex

I'm guessing the difference between showing concentration camp figures in a museum and selling concentration camp figures is that one is done for education and rememberance,and the other for profit.As for the Yellow star on figures,you'd have to ask someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust about that, but I can guess the answer.

However this has nothing to do with the thread,K&C do not and have said they would not make these type of figures,the refugees are refugees and NOT concentration camp victims.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Thats spot on mate. Most of the former concentration camps that I have visited have had some form of model/dioramas depicting what went on. I think with Alex's comment about the yellow star on these figures would quite possibly be seen as anti semetic under the current legislation and would give rise to the possibility of prosecution.

Or, at the least would cause such controversy and publicity that the retailer or manufacturer would suffer so much negative damage it would be almost business suicide.

Mitch

 

[kingtoot]

C'mon guys..haven't we heard this before? as long as it makes the Germans look marketable enough to sell, then make it. How about making some civilian Brits in firefighting uniforms battling the flames of blitzkreig? Hauling off debris in wheelbarrows? oh nevermind, that wouldn't sell. no chance of having Germans in the picture...for Fuhrer and Fatherland!

 

[Alex]

I'm not saying that a manufacturer should release such figures (with a yellow star). What I mean by that is that people should remember what happened in the past.

I agree with you Rob. In fact, I've never understood why K&C had released LAH figures.. This is for me bad taste and a way to show nazism under a bright star. That's why I've never collected LAH figures but to each his own and people are free to buy and collect what they want.

Now if we come back to this thread, these new figures are not by themselves equivalent to bad taste but the picture where they 're shown with a german crew taking pictures is for me showing some bad taste from the manufacturer. I wouldn't have depicted them like this.

Alex

 

[Harvey]

Actually we are all waiting for the Anne Frank personality figure.

Best post of the thread. I love your sense of humor.

Cheers,
Harvey

 

[Mister Dave]

I'm not saying that a manufacturer should release such figures (with a yellow star). What I mean by that is that people should remember what happened in the past.

I agree with you Rob. In fact, I've never understood why K&C had released LAH figures.. This is for me bad taste and a way to show nazism under a bright star. That's why I've never collected LAH figures but to each his own and people are free to buy and collect what they want.

Now if we come back to this thread, these new figures are not by themselves equivalent to bad taste but the picture where they 're shown with a german crew taking pictures is for me showing some bad taste from the manufacturer. I wouldn't have depicted them like this.
Alex

And this was precisely my point I guess. In fact if you check my first post you will see that it starts with a compliment regarding the nice looking figures.

As for the whole notion of something being offensive or not...well it is ultimately a very subjective thing, and if people are saying something offends them then that thing is offensive, and shouting them down or insulting them, or using patronizing language and ridicule is ideally not an appropriate response. I know I cannot get away with this sort of behavior in my profession anyway.

 

[MapleLeaf]

I like them and i will buy them
I hope Andy adds to them and some with horse drawn wagon
It's part of history , really goes with any period of the war
could be in France , Belgium , UK , Russia even Germany
To those who are offended or don't like them
Well don't buy them or look at them
As far as LAH , every toy soldier show i went
there's always dioramas of it and more then one
never heard anybody complaint , big seller from what i ear
these civilians are long waited for(keep them coming)
a big step for dios
Maple Leaf

 

[villagehorse]

I like them and i will buy them
I hope Andy adds to them and some with horse drawn wagon
It's part of history , really goes with any period of the war
could be in France , Belgium , UK , Russia even Germany
To those who are offended or don't like them
Well don't buy them or look at them
As far as LAH , every toy soldier show i went
there's always dioramas of it and more then one
never heard anybody complaint , big seller from what i ear
these civilians are long waited for(keep them coming)
a big step for dios
Maple Leaf

Mine are ordered, cannot see any problem with these and looking forward to further releases.

 

[DMNamiot]

Man oh man I just dont get it. Is it offensive if you want to add civilians to the display or is it offensive that the set has a German filming it or is it offensive if you collect the LAH or some other series or what? I dont get what the problem is with these figures. If you dont collect a line or arent going to collect a line for a personal reason like Grand ma was a refuge in one of those long lines of refugees trying to get out of the way of the various armies then fine dont colect it, or look at them, or comment on these figures or you can just say they hit too close to home or make some other excuse, but just let the series alone and move on. My family lost relatives in these battles, I lost one set of maternal Great Grand parents in Poland/Prussia when the Russians and Germans went at it in WWII. I lost a ton of family members who opted to stay in the Ukraine/ Crimean area of Russia when half the siblings decided to leave and go to the US and Palestine. No One from the families who opted to stay in Russia survived the war. But you know what I dont see them as being despareged by the production of some K&C Refugees. It happened and it is a fact that cant be avoided in Total War, civilians get killed or displaced when two armies meet on the field of battle. When you have Armies in the 100's of thousands they dont all fit into one city or village they cover a lot of ground so someone has to move. As a matter of fact I think these figures add an interesting dimension to a display of a convoy of tanks or trucks moving up to the front but thats just my perspective.

Dave

 

[The Military Workshop]

Dave,
Extremely well put.
Regards
Brett

 

[Rob]

I'm not saying that a manufacturer should release such figures (with a yellow star). What I mean by that is that people should remember what happened in the past.

I agree with you Rob. In fact, I've never understood why K&C had released LAH figures.. This is for me bad taste and a way to show nazism under a bright star. That's why I've never collected LAH figures but to each his own and people are free to buy and collect what they want.

Now if we come back to this thread, these new figures are not by themselves equivalent to bad taste but the picture where they 're shown with a german crew taking pictures is for me showing some bad taste from the manufacturer. I wouldn't have depicted them like this.

Alex

I agree with you absolutely re LAH,however I respect the fact that because of the sacrifice made by that wonderful generation we live in a free world and are free to collect whatever we please,thank God for it and collect whatever makes you happy.

And as someone has said before,when dealing with warfare its possible that someone somewhere may well always be offended, but it can't be helped.One of my favourite collections is D Day.Its quite possible that there may be French people who find that offensive because far from being liberated they may have lost relatives to RAF bombing of roads,bridges,railways etc?.Another favourite is North Africa,today young children in the area are regularly losing limbs to British,German and Italian mines that move in the ever shifting sands of that area,they may be offended by my collection?.

If any of you have seen the black and white John Mills film 'Dunkirk' then you will know that these refugees look like they are straight out of that film.They are, along with buildings and vehicles, an historical backdrop on which to display K&C soldiers.This is how I will/would use them and there will be no hint of any atrocity.

Rob

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

I think everyone who collects toy soldiers and loves military history should remember why we like these toys. The battles the stories the sculpt the painting the amount of figures. I don't collect alot of themes K&C make but hay there not evil in any way and if people look at them as evil maybe they aren't right in the head. Simmo.

 

[Guy]

Hi
yesterday I promised to send a picture taken in 1940 of refugees on the road to show how real the K&C figures are;
On this picture you can see Belgian refugees fleeing for the German advance ( May 1940 on the road between the cities of Tielt and Pittem in Flanders /Belgium)
note in the forground the lady with the bycicle and the little boy packed like a donkey. Behind her probably her mother also with a bycicle and behind them a lady with a little girl and a pram.They are followed by a group of old men(all young men were mobilised into the belgian army)
Also note on the other side of the road a column of german horse drawn carriages advancing in the other direction.
Guy

 

[Showman]

Andy - I have read many of these posts. When I saw this figures coming out I immediately thought, fantastic, just what I need for my D-Day +1 diorama!
I never considered for a second that they were Jews or Poles or Russian Civilains, they looked FRENCH, to me. I cannot tell the religion from the pictures. Excellent job Andy . I will buy these figures.

I say Tomatoe you say TOMAATOE..

The wonderful part of this hobby is that we can make it what we want. It gives me a sense of control after my hectic day at the office. Darn it , if I put a figure in one place, IT STAYS! It really is one of the few parts of my day where I can do what we want and no ones complains or moans.

In the long run the figures will sell or they will not. It might be a mistake , it might not. It is up to each and every collector to determine what use these figures are in their collection or diorama.

 

[Mister Dave]

Man oh man I just dont get it. Is it offensive if you want to add civilians to the display or is it offensive that the set has a German filming it or is it offensive if you collect the LAH or some other series or what? I dont get what the problem is with these figures. If you dont collect a line or arent going to collect a line for a personal reason like Grand ma was a refuge in one of those long lines of refugees trying to get out of the way of the various armies then fine dont colect it, or look at them, or comment on these figures or you can just say they hit too close to home or make some other excuse, but just let the series alone and move on. My family lost relatives in these battles, I lost one set of maternal Great Grand parents in Poland/Prussia when the Russians and Germans went at it in WWII. I lost a ton of family members who opted to stay in the Ukraine/ Crimean area of Russia when half the siblings decided to leave and go to the US and Palestine. No One from the families who opted to stay in Russia survived the war. But you know what I dont see them as being despareged by the production of some K&C Refugees. It happened and it is a fact that cant be avoided in Total War, civilians get killed or displaced when two armies meet on the field of battle. When you have Armies in the 100's of thousands they dont all fit into one city or village they cover a lot of ground so someone has to move. As a matter of fact I think these figures add an interesting dimension to a display of a convoy of tanks or trucks moving up to the front but thats just my perspective.

Dave

Not a very "moderate" response coming from a "moderator".

If you have to ask, Dave, and apparently you have not bothered to actually read the comments from those of us who have dared to voice concern about what's being portrayed here, yes it most decidedly is the image and not the figures themselves. I am fairly confident that the general public by and large would find a posed picture of scared kids and old people pushing their household belongings down the street in a cart, while uniformed Nazis callously take photos of them, to be disturbing.

I am no shrinking violet, and I get the whole, "war is not all glamour and shiny uniforms" argument. Been there and done that as a still serving officer in the armed forces. Also deal with a raft-load of pain and suffering every day as a physician.

I don't appreciate being effectively told to "shut up" publicly by the representative of this establishment for voicing a reasonable concern.

 

[Alex]

Mister Dave is spot on ! And I'm a physician too.

Alex