"Refugees on the Road" (1 Viewer)

[Louis Badolato]

Seen as a few have gone crackers on here about these sets, technically, german camp guards did not through women or children onto fires or, into gas chambers 'Kapo's' did forced to do so by German guards for their temporary survival or, extra rations etc.

Nobody, on here who has castigated these sets and, criticised as overstepping the mark or bad taste has said that they will not have german pieces in their collection full stop. How many who criticise and selectively use history to support their outrage have say, the Hummel or flakpanzer gephard in their collection which, was Totenkopf and, that regiment was drawn from camp guards.

If you think the camp guards are 'scum' fine but, for all the reasons some are stating that this civillian set picture is reprehensible should only do so if, they have no SS or german army items in their collection.

Most of the rounding up of refugee's etc was only done with the aid of the Heer divisions.

I ceratinly see nobody condoning what went on but, surely, we should be discussing K&C rather than the speculative hysteria of what some believe these sets possibly, maybe, might somehow represent should we really think hard enough.

Only my opinion but, its been very informative and interesting
Mitch

Mitch,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but many of us hold a completely different opinion. I personally collect toy soldiers to honor the brave men who fought the Nazis to permit me to live in freedom. 3 of them were my great uncles, one my uncle (my father's oldest brother). 2 did not come back.

I have plenty of action fighting germans in my collection, because to honor my uncles and the other members of the greatest generation, I believe I have to depict them fighting the incredibly tough opposition that the Wermacht and Waffen SS provided. On the dioramas on which I display them, however, the Nazis are either in the act of being ambushed and defeated, or have already died or surrendered.

There is not a single parade ground Nazi or Nazi leader figure in my collection with 2 specific exceptions: the Death of Heidrich set, and the Operation Valkyrie set produced by K&C. Why? They are both attempts (one successful) to convert Nazi leaders into what I call "good Nazis" (i.e. dead Nazis).

I see no contradiction between displaying Nazis as the enemy being defeated and making a stand against what they stood for, facism, racism, fear, hatred and brutality. On the other hand, I do not hold it against those people who chose to display parade ground Nazis in their collections. Indeed, one of my best friends in the whole world has what is in all probability the largest K&C LAH collection in existence. What to enjoy collecting and displaying is each individual collector's business, and no one else's. As long as we respect each other's opinions, discussions like this one should be educational and fun. At least that's my opinion, I could be wrong . . .

 

[Mitch]

Louis...

I do not know where my opinions differ from the 'many' on here as I am not condoning what the Nazi's did searching for their ideological eutopia.

I too have several family members who fought in Spits, Lancs and all the way from Africa through Italy fortunately, they all came home and, I grew up on their experiences. I think, my point was as it has been through this post which, for me, is more interesting than just saying how nice a set is etc, was that initial link from one photo to concentration camps and genocide for some.

Psychologically, that would lead to some interesting discussions in itself but, that is another story.

My aim was not to undermine any reasons why collectors collect what they do but, to highlight some of the hypocracy of some of the comments which, may sound like a strong accusation but, it has come across as that.

I agree with your comment about being free to collect what we want and how we want because of the generation that fought in WWII and, that has been my point that some seem to be stiffling through morality and censorship that right to depict sets in any manner a firm chooses.

The debate has two sides and, those who have done the most vociferous responses cannot deny that there is an irony to their argument.

I think a lot of the LaH collecting from people I know and, indeed myself comes from the fact they look asthetically pleasing and, that which, I have stated here and in magazines can be done without sympathising with the ideology behind.

I just like pointing out the other side of a debate even if I disagree
Mitch

 

[MapleLeaf]

Very well said Louis
I second that
Anybody find out where they from?
France maybe Belgium or Russia
maybe German at end of war
could it be possible Brits leaving for country
to avoid bombardment
Anybody find out , let me know

 

[Mitch]

Mapleleaf....

I think what you said was what quite a few said on here including myself. They could be from anywhere you want them to be from including some eastern countries or balken countries like bosnia etc in more modern times. I wondered why automatically some thought german atrocity as soon as the photo was displayed?
Mitch

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis...

I do not know where my opinions differ from the 'many' on here as I am not condoning what the Nazi's did searching for their ideological eutopia.

I too have several family members who fought in Spits, Lancs and all the way from Africa through Italy fortunately, they all came home and, I grew up on their experiences. I think, my point was as it has been through this post which, for me, is more interesting than just saying how nice a set is etc, was that initial link from one photo to concentration camps and genocide for some.

Psychologically, that would lead to some interesting discussions in itself but, that is another story.

My aim was not to undermine any reasons why collectors collect what they do but, to highlight some of the hypocracy of some of the comments which, may sound like a strong accusation but, it has come across as that.

I agree with your comment about being free to collect what we want and how we want because of the generation that fought in WWII and, that has been my point that some seem to be stiffling through morality and censorship that right to depict sets in any manner a firm chooses.

The debate has two sides and, those who have done the most vociferous responses cannot deny that there is an irony to their argument.

I think a lot of the LaH collecting from people I know and, indeed myself comes from the fact they look asthetically pleasing and, that which, I have stated here and in magazines can be done without sympathising with the ideology behind.

I just like pointing out the other side of a debate even if I disagree
Mitch

Mitch,

I doubt that you and I have any major differences of opinion. And frankly, it is nice that we can express our opinions in a polite and forthright fashion. I agree with you that sometimes on this forum, differences of opinion quickly degenerate into arguments and name calling. I am glad that neither of us felt that was an appropriate direction for our conversation.

The two of my Uncles who made the ultimate sacrifice did so in 8th Air Force B17's flying out of Great Britain. I imagine they shared similar experiences with your family members flying in Lancs. It must have been fascinating for you to grow up surrounded be relatives who flew Spitfires and Lancs. I know as a child I would have pestered them endlessly for their stories. My Uncle Jack (Staff Sgt., 9th Airforce, Air Crew, North Africa, Sicily and Italy) never spoke to me about his experiences - his two brothers were the two Uncles who died, and either that or his own experiences really changed him. He never married or had children, and lived with my grandmother and grandfather his entire life. My Uncle Leo (U.S. Navy, Seaman, Destroyer), who brought home my Aunt Margaret, a war bride from Liverpool, only talked about the good times on leave in England with Margaret and her family. The only war story he would tell is how one night in his barracks the air raid siren went off, and he didn't want to get out of bed. His friends made him get up and go to the shelter, and when he returned to his bunk after the all clear, a piece of shrapnel had passed right through his pillow. He told me he was never cavalier about air raid sirens again.

 

[Mister Dave]

Seen as a few have gone crackers on here about these sets, technically, german camp guards did not through women or children onto fires or, into gas chambers 'Kapo's' did forced to do so by German guards for their temporary survival or, extra rations etc.

Nobody, on here who has castigated these sets and, criticised as overstepping the mark or bad taste has said that they will not have german pieces in their collection full stop. How many who criticise and selectively use history to support their outrage have say, the Hummel or flakpanzer gephard in their collection which, was Totenkopf and, that regiment was drawn from camp guards.

If you think the camp guards are 'scum' fine but, for all the reasons some are stating that this civillian set picture is reprehensible should only do so if, they have no SS or german army items in their collection.

Most of the rounding up of refugee's etc was only done with the aid of the Heer divisions.

I ceratinly see nobody condoning what went on but, surely, we should be discussing K&C rather than the speculative hysteria of what some believe these sets possibly, maybe, might somehow represent should we really think hard enough.

Only my opinion but, its been very informative and interesting
Mitch

Well if you are making accusations of hypocrisy, then I can assure you I don't happen to have a single piece of WW2 material in my collection, but this fact really should not make any difference. If I did choose to purchase and collect German troops from this era I just personally would not display them in a culturally insensitive or sadistic manner. Can you really not appreciate or understand this sentiment?

 

[Mitch]

Louis...

Never would have dreamt to have began the name calling thing its all about opinions and, its always interesting to get other peoples. though as realtively new to the site there is a bit of tension sometimes.

Very interesting family lineage. My grandfather was in 610 squad during WWII serving firstly with Hurricanes then Spits so, loved that growing up. My Uncle Tommy was, just that, for me, the traditional 'Tommy.' a SGT in the desert Rats. A scouser with the dryest humour you could imagine.

These two were in my life every day until their untimely passing away but, were great 'Characters'

My grandmothers brother was bomb aimer out of Lincolnshire and, was quite badly affected by his actions after the war due to the numbers of civillians he believed he was party to killing. It was not until the last five years of his life that he openly spoke about his actions.

What I am amazed about is the nonchalance they had in discussing things they did as if, it was run of the mill
Mitch
Mitch

 

[Mitch]

MisterDave.....

Thanks for the response. Why is the photo that Mr Neilson put on culturally insensitive or, in a sadistic manner?

The photo which caused all of this has no cultural connotations nor is it displayed in a sadistic manner.

Those two connotations have soley derived from your psyche and, you have drawn those conclusions.

I also think your a little emotional as your last line even through the internet screams anger and sarcasm which attempts to belittle my intelligence as if I am unable to comprehend anothers point. I can, its just the conclusions you draw are not there to be drawn unless you wish to think in those ways. There are those who see black clouds and those who see light. I know which one I am happy to be under.

Mitch

 

[Mister Dave]

I am fairly confident that the general public by and large would find a posed picture of scared kids and old people pushing their household belongings down the street in a cart, while uniformed Nazis callously take photos of them, to be disturbing.

Mitch, I am not feeling particularly angry or sarcastic at the moment, just frustrated with being painted as "gone crackers", "overly emotional", "hysterical", "coping poorly", "high strung", and "hypocritical" by yourself and others for finding the photo in question to be culturally insensitive and sadistic. I think this previous post of mine explains my objection and concern pretty succinctly. Please, no more name calling and labeling if you don't mind.

 

[Mitch]

MisterDave...

Not one of those comments were aimed at you particularly apart from the emotional one from you second last post to me. I ceratinly have not name called you at all. I just think that you have jumped to a conclusion and have stuck to it you still believe that these are anything other than oppressed non german civillians.

If it saves any problems just think of them as displaced german civvies being photoed by the department of the poisoned dwarf to show the terror raids of the RAF.

I cannot speak for the alleged pole of people who may or may not see the photo as offensive but, if the site is anything to go by the offended are in the vocally loudest minority.

I would be the first to acknowledge your point if I could see it in that photo but, I personally cannot. By the way of thinking that means that things like the documentary the world at war should be banned as distasteful as it shows the camps and german soldiers filming and pushing civillians to an unknown fate.

You cannot get away from the fact that this is nothing as compared to the real life footage anyone can and has seen from WWII and many more. These are just Toy soldiers and, I am sorry to say that I think yourself and others have over-reacted on this occasion.

Its my opinion but, I cannot apologise for the way that I see this but, I don't believe anything I have said has been offensive or, insulting to any poster on this site. I could apologise to you but, it would be a fake apology as I stand by what I have written. You can tell when something is meant as hurtful and offensive and when it is not and, on this occasion its the latter.

I just see the hobby for what it is a hobby and take it as not serious
Mitch

 

[jazzeum]

Having landed in China yesterday, I was amazed to see this thread still going on and apparently sinking lower. At some point, everybody needs to just walk away.

 

[nmrocks]

My mother is full blooded German, My Grandfather worked in the shipyards in bremerhaven and Cuxhaven, building Uboats as I remember. They survived hourendous bombing raids by the allies. In the 70's they removed an unexploded 500lbs. bomb from the field not 30ft. from there home. If either of them saw these figures I guarentee they would think of the German refugees and those Germans displaced by war. Really this is one of those "eye of the Beholder" things, one persons art is anothers junk and no one is wrong.

 

[Warrior]

Having landed in China yesterday.....

See that men; Brad, feeling badly about possibly starting all of this, took it upon himself to jump on a plane and fly to China to personally tell Andy he was sorry, way to go Brad................

 

[OzDigger]

See that men; Brad, feeling badly about possibly starting all of this, took it upon himself to jump on a plane and fly to China to personally tell Andy he was sorry, way to go Brad................

LOL - Brad's a very naughty boy

 

[Mister Dave]

See that men; Brad, feeling badly about possibly starting all of this, took it upon himself to jump on a plane and fly to China to personally tell Andy he was sorry, way to go Brad................

Nice one George.

 

[wayne556517]

Just thought i would put these up again to refresh EVERYONES memory what you are all "DISCUSSING"........

 

[OzDigger]

Thanks Wayne, guys I have just noticed a Radio on the wagon which were usually a prohibited item in occupied countries, they must be German refugees, not to mention the Cuckoo Clock

 

[wayne556517]

The bloke with the blue hat has a stein in his case he has been to OCTOBERFEST must be germans im with you Matt.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

178 posts on this thread already! Well 179 now. We could all have read a good book in that time!

 

[Mister Dave]

178 posts on this thread already! Well 179 now. We could all have read a good book in that time!

Funny you mention this because I actually have.