The Little Bighorn (1 Viewer)

[maddadicus]

I would love to see a docu-dio also, but not at the expense of having to buy cavalry and indian figures by the 100's..I also agree that Benteen's decision to ignore Custer's orders and turn back to the column saved Reno. Folks may not be aware, but Reno had only about 45 men( including wounded ) on the hill ,when Benteen arrived. Some 25 or so, later showed up, after hiding out from the indians in the valley. Some of my accounts say that Benteen got the message about 4:00, but could not hurry the column, because of the mule driven pack train and their horses, being played out..( another fact often missed is that Custer drove his command 60 miles in 2 days. Indians accounts say that Reno's charge fizzled, because his horses had nothing left.).Had Benteen continued on Custer's original orders and Custer's message had reached Benteen an hour later, most surmise that Custer and Reno would have already been dead ,by the time these troops had reached the field..Michael

 

[Russell]

What happened to Benteen after Little Big Horn? Did it ruin his career for ignoring Custer's orders? Was he applauded for saving Reno +? Also, who are the original sources for what we 'know': Benteen, Reno, others?

 

[UKReb]

I would love to see a docu-dio also, but not at the expense of having to buy cavalry and indian figures by the 100's..I also agree that Benteen's decision to ignore Custer's orders and turn back to the column saved Reno. Folks may not be aware, but Reno had only about 45 men( including wounded ) on the hill ,when Benteen arrived. Some 25 or so, later showed up, after hiding out from the indians in the valley. Some of my accounts say that Benteen got the message about 4:00, but could not hurry the column, because of the mule driven pack train and their horses, being played out..( another fact often missed is that Custer drove his command 60 miles in 2 days. Indians accounts say that Reno's charge fizzled, because his horses had nothing left.).Had Benteen continued on Custer's original orders and Custer's message had reached Benteen an hour later, most surmise that Custer and Reno would have already been dead ,by the time these troops had reached the field..Michael

Michael all true-However, one must remember that Custer's plan was to rest on the 25th in preparation for an assault on the 26th-when as far as he was he was aware Terry and Gibbons columns would arrive-we now know that Terry and the Montana Column were making dreadful progress without adequate local guides and with Terry's self-admitted tactical ineptness all adding to the delay.
At dawn of the 25th Custer's Indian scouts informed Lt Varnum that they could see a large pony herd indicating a large Indian village 15 miles to the north-east. Varnum unable to verify this through field-glasses sent a message to Custer who joined him at the Crows Nest at 1000hrs. He also could see nothing and refuted that it would be a large camp, however he accepted, because of the fresh Indian trail leading toward the LBH, that the hostiles could be there.
At this point before he leaves the Crows Nest comes the crunch! Tom Custer arrives with the news of "discovery" by the Sioux-they had seen the soldiers-Custer's scouts warned him that he could not now surprise the Indian-Custer disagreed and prepared his battle plan and ordered an officers call informing them that he had made a crucial decision; if he waited until the 26th the enemy would scatter and escape- they will attack at once.

The controversy of splitting his command in three (four actually) in hostile territory has been said to have been the main contributing factor in his downfall. But as any student of the ACW will tell you he used it successsfully time and time again during the war-true with a more conventional opponent-some historians have stated that he adopted a plan similar to his attack at the Wash-ita dividing his command to attack from different angles. But this was not the case at the LBH as he had no specific target when he organised the regiment and had no further info when he sent Benteen left (another little known fact is that Custer did not send a surgeon with Benteen's column which may have meant that he did not expect Benteen's men to see any action)

Just a point to remember here as somebody mentioned earlier on the thread that this was guerrilla war-fare. Absolutely true and regardless of his reputation of being Custer the Indian fighter-he was not. He was fighting them exactly as he fought the Rebs-a good correalation here would be the US officers in WWII who fought brilliantly against the Germans- who were then sent to Vietnam 15 years later were initially inept against the guerrilla type combat they experienced there

Let me now lay down some facts for perhaps further discussion.

1. What if Custer had ordered Benteen instead of Reno to charge the village? Benteen had a splendid reputation of being a fearless fighter where Reno had never seen an arrow fired in anger but as second in command Custer was obliged to give the charge to Reno.

Let me put some meat on that. Not one single trooper had been shot from his horse when Reno stopped his charge. Gall had rallied some warriors to mount a fire fight whilst the women began to dismantle the tepees. If these Indians at the edge of the village were such a threat how come Reno only lost two men-whose horses bolted into the village still carrying their riders- when he decided to retreat. He suffered no other losses until he failed to maintain control of his command in the timber. But if it had been Benteen who had carried the charge through the village- maybe just maybe- that when Custer made an attempt to probe the village with a detachment sent down Medicine Tail Coulee, it was forced back by warriors who might not have been available if the charge had penetrated the village as Custer had planned it!

Reb

 

[Aleš]

i do not see the point of attacking the vilage(no matter who charge the attack).
What he try to prove when attack the vilage?
Instead a good plan will be,surond the vilage at least the main exit from the vilage,like where the river is cross,or between two mountains,...i do not know what is the nature in Little big Horne but he (Custer) must put his man surrond this exit from the Vilage,so that they can "dig in",enough amunition,save cover,....and than put a little charge to the vilage just to show that he is there and it will be a small group of 30-50 man and when the indians will follow them from the village,they will lead them in to trap.the blue shirts will expekt them to arrive with a lot of fire and before the indians will get rid of this surprise,the calvary with 200 soldiers will attack them from the blank,maybe even better from the two blanks.This is how you need to use this 600 man.
But what strategy he have i do not know.Even when Reno attack the vilage there is no point because Custer didnt wait for the indians,they didnt have no cover,Benten was too war away(lost!),....i think any scolar will make a better strategy than this.

 

[kogu]

Even if I can't contribute to this thread, I just want to say that it is a most interesting read.
Thanks to all participants in the discussion.
Konrad

 

[Spitfrnd]

i do not see the point of attacking the vilage(no matter who charge the attack).
What he try to prove when attack the vilage?
Instead a good plan will be,surond the vilage at least the main exit from the vilage,like where the river is cross,or between two mountains,...i do not know what is the nature in Little big Horne but he (Custer) must put his man surrond this exit from the Vilage,so that they can "dig in",enough amunition,save cover,....and than put a little charge to the vilage just to show that he is there and it will be a small group of 30-50 man and when the indians will follow them from the village,they will lead them in to trap.the blue shirts will expekt them to arrive with a lot of fire and before the indians will get rid of this surprise,the calvary with 200 soldiers will attack them from the blank,maybe even better from the two blanks.This is how you need to use this 600 man.
But what strategy he have i do not know.Even when Reno attack the vilage there is no point because Custer didnt wait for the indians,they didnt have no cover,Benten was too war away(lost!),....i think any scolar will make a better strategy than this.

Well perhaps Michael or Bob can confirm this but it is my understanding that Custer had orders to "punish Indian hostiles" by raiding their villages so as despicable as it may have been, it was I believe policy. Also, Custer had done that way at least once before I believe. I also understand that Benteen did not care for this policy.

 

[eborris]

i do not see the point of attacking the vilage(no matter who charge the attack).
What he try to prove when attack the vilage?
Instead a good plan will be,surond the vilage at least the main exit from the vilage,like where the river is cross,or between two mountains,...i do not know what is the nature in Little big Horne but he (Custer) must put his man surrond this exit from the Vilage,so that they can "dig in",enough amunition,save cover,....and than put a little charge to the vilage just to show that he is there and it will be a small group of 30-50 man and when the indians will follow them from the village,they will lead them in to trap.the blue shirts will expekt them to arrive with a lot of fire and before the indians will get rid of this surprise,the calvary with 200 soldiers will attack them from the blank,maybe even better from the two blanks.This is how you need to use this 600 man.
But what strategy he have i do not know.Even when Reno attack the vilage there is no point because Custer didnt wait for the indians,they didnt have no cover,Benten was too war away(lost!),....i think any scolar will make a better strategy than this.

My theory is that he was using Reno as a decoy to draw the attention of the warriors, so he could go in the back door so to speak and capture the women and children . If his plan had succeeded the battle would have been over, Infact it wouldn't even have been much of a battle. He had to split his forces to accomplish this plan and someone had to attack to draw the warriors attention.

 

[lancer]

This is a great thread and is supplying me with great info. Just a point here. For all the criticism Custer has taken for spliting his forces in the face of the enemy, I do not see what real choice he had IF he wanted to take action. Taking all factors into account, ie., what he needed to accomplish, he had to split his forces. Although such action is against most military common sense, it is also SOP for an outnumbered force taking the offensive. As pointed out, Custer had done it before, with success and so had a certain General named Lee at Chancellorsville. It was not the actual spliting of forces that doomed him, rather it was a combo of bad or no info, landscape, timing, and based on his former experience, his assumption of how the Indians would behave. JMO and I would like to hear more from you Custerphiles. Thanks for this thread. --lancer

 

[UKReb]

Ales

I think all of us on this thread are completely aware that Custer is not your favorite soldier and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion therefore whatever I or anyone else says on the subject here is most definitely not going to change that opinion although I personally don't think you have added much evidence to support your Custer was an idiot stance..

However, it is my opinion-to which I am also entitled too- that Custer was not a stupid; inept and incompetent soldier and all I have been attempting to do is lay out some facts for further discussion that are not always published in the Custer tomes and a what-if.
But I'll shut up if it's getting on your goat before you get on mine

Reb

 

[Njja]

Ales

I think all of us on this thread are completely aware that Custer is not your favorite soldier and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion therefore whatever I or anyone else says on the subject here is most definitely not going to change that opinion although I personally don't think you have added much evidence to support your Custer was an idiot stance..

However, it is my opinion-to which I am also entitled too- that Custer was not a stupid; inept and incompetent soldier and all I have been attempting to do is lay out some facts for further discussion that are not always published in the Custer tomes and a what-if.
But I'll shut up if it's getting on your goat before you get on mine

Reb

........................................................................................................

Reb:

Personally I would like to thank you for your posts! I have read several books on Gen. Custer and was most impressed with his loyality, and bravery. I admire the way he served in the Civil War and distinguished himself.

The posts you have added to this thread have been concise, well thought out, and of considerable interest, and certainly could not have been said better by me.

I thank you, and I think Gen. Custer would thank you for expressing your thoughts on this subject.

Last in his class to Maj General quite an accomplishment.

 

[OzDigger]

Maybe Custer is a good example that PASSION is often more important for success than ABILITY

 

[trooper]

There was only one thing wrong with Custer's military strategy in splitting his force, and that was in doing so BEFORE being fully aware of the enemy's size and disposition. Had the exact size and shape of the village been known he might have been able to make more effective use of his troops. Our Slovenian friend's master plan would have been impossible for much the same reason. By his own admission he has no knowledge of the terrain, so how can he advocate the placing of an ambush without having prior knowledge of size, disposition or even territory? Quite apart from the impossibility of moving a large mounted force that close to a village and digging in without being detected. And surrounding the village? To do that the troopers would have to be spaced about 100 yards apart, hardly conducive for massed fire power.
Haste, over confidence and lack of reliable intelligence were the main reasons for the disaster.

 

[Aleš]

no th eproblem is that i do not know all the english words,so that is why i write dig in,and i put it in " dig in" which do not mean literaly dig in in a hole.
It mean cover,this is take 5 minutes to take cover,prepare enough amunition.
When i say surronded i didnt mean that surronded with all people.I say that they need to surrond the exit from this place.I do not know how this place look like and neither than most of you anyway,but Custer was there and he should now.So what my "master plan " is that he should look for the exit from this vilage,because there was also woman and childreen the exit is where it can go large number of people,because some of them will go for them selves but the most of them will stay together(like buffalos) and they will try to escape together and there you should meet them,on their way out.How to make this is simple.You just look where the wind is blow,from which direction,fire the grsa(prarie),the wind will blow fire towards the indians,indians will try to escape on the other way,where you will meet them.If you have 600 soldiers,than you put 300 on foot to shoot at them and 150 cavalry on the left blank and another 150 cavalry to the right blank,for those who will change the direction after the soldiers shoot at them.Because when the indians will see that behind is immposible to go because of the fire,the front is also imposible to go because of the 300 soldiers,than some of them will go left or right and there the cavalry will meet them.It is simple,easy.
But if i was there i will be on the indians side anyway so we will win-off course.After this battle i will united all the tribes,and we will have large teritory to control.United all the tribes it will be around 20000 indians and more.Which will make one big village,than i will put 5000 wariors to search for the bufalos,fishes,deers,....so there is plenty food for all,than another 5000 indians i will sent to search for other indian tribes in the south and west and united with me(Apaches on the south,Nez Perce on the west,Comances on the south,....) with another 10000 indians i will atack forts,pioners,...so than the blue soldiers will need a lot of man like 5000-10000,and before they will arive our Apaches,Comanches,Nez Perce,...will also arrive so we will have around 50000 warior ready to fight and than the blue soldiers will be defetaed again and after that lost of 5000-10000 blue soldiers,they will think twice to attack us again.And we will united all the other tribes and we will have more than 100000 indians,control large of the land by us.Because there is a lot of land it will be also a lot of opurtunity to hunt,so there will be enough food,from all that killing blue soldiers we will have enough weapons,....blue soldiers will be scared because they lost too many people so they will have trouble to get more new soldiers and even if they get they will have people who just join in the army,with no military skill,AND WE WILL BE WAITING FOR THEM

 

[marco55]

My friend You do not realize that the buffalo were about gone and that the indians had differences between each other and that a lot of tribes hated each other for generations.You generalize too much.you only know the surface of western history.
Mark

 

[Aleš]

My friend You do not realize that the buffalo were about gone and that the indians had differences between each other and that a lot of tribes hated each other for generations.You generalize too much.you only know the surface of western history.
Mark

well yes i am sure the indians have differences between each other,but that time they will realise that only together they can win or at least delay their defeat.
Think about Crazy horse meet Geronimo,Cochise,Chief Joseph,...and wild Comanches fight together with Sioux,Chayene,against blue soldiers....it will be very interesting.
It sure look nice movie,why no body direct this?
If they can film movie like Spiderman,daredevil,Superman,Batman,...they can also make up story of this.
I can write an script

 

[lancer]

I am beginning to think Ales may be taking us on a "Missouri boat ride". -- lancer

 

[Spitfrnd]

Ales
.......However, it is my opinion-to which I am also entitled too- that Custer was not a stupid; inept and incompetent soldier and all I have been attempting to do is lay out some facts for further discussion that are not always published in the Custer tomes and a what-if.
But I'll shut up if it's getting on your goat before you get on mine

Reb

You have done that extremely well as always mate but I do hope you do not discontinue your comments since I think ALL of us really find them very informative and interesting. I do hope we have room here for differing opinions of all types, even those based on differing depths of information. I certainly wouldn't question the basis for your opinion that Custer was not stupid but it was rather ironic that the last in his class finally made what is consider by many to be a colossal tactical blunder. Perhaps he relied on his passion and daring one time too many.

 

[Aleš]

Look about Custer.Lets be honest,he was a farm boy,grow up in the farm,his mother was a farmer,his father was a farmer,...he will be unimportant if there is no civil war.He was leading this 60 charges because no one else was so stupid to do this.He was stupid and brave enough.You do not need to think nothing when you chrage,you just sit on the horse and chargeeeeeee! And off course you must be brave and he was brave,but that is all he was.Deep in his soul he was still farm boy,chasing around chikeens,playing with dirt,...like all farm boys.He was not an inteligent person.He do not know nothing about strategy,he was a bully,he try everything with courage,force,...but he was not smart enough-that is it.There is no other opinion.
Like if you put an farm boy from straight from the farm,without any education(and Custer is poor west point education) to work in the bank or in the hospital,....what do you think the result will be?
Like if you know how to eat that doesnt make you a cook!

 

[binder001]

Ales,

Indians uniting - unfortunately for them, it wasn't likely to happen. Even the strongest leader couldn't overcome the divisions between the Indians themselves. Despite the racial differences between the whites and the native peoples, the Indians were a deeply divided people. The people in the southwest had no use for the plains tribes and they had little in common with the natives from the east, etc. The Europeans often used these division, often pitting one tribe against another. Remember that Custer was using Crow scouts. The Pawnees and Sioux often fought on the plains and the Pawnee would aid the whites against their enemies.

Logistics - as stated earlier the plains Indians were VERY dependent on the buffalo. By 1876 the buffalo numbers were greatly reduced, the available herds couldn't support the large concentration of people that you mention. If the Indians started farming for their food and built organized cities, they would be doing EXACTLY what the white population desired. Only a minority of US citizens favored "ethnic cleansing". The real objective was to get the Indians "out of the way" of US expansion. The decision makers wanted them converted from nomadic hunters to farmers. To support 50,000 people the plains Indians would have had to make the very social and cultural changes that the whites wanted.

Military - the US had fought a civil war just a dozen years before. They could easily have taken on a concentration of thousands of native peoples in one spot. The Indians would have been overwhelmed by numbers and firepower.

The US government could not ignore several thousand people claiming the middle 20% of North America as their private hunting preserve. Something had to give. The very place that I am writing this from would have been Pawnee or Otoe land with occasional incursions by the Lakota.

Gary

 

[Russell]

Reb, please don't give up the ship. I've learnt a lot reading your posts and I'm glad you've taken the time to share your knowledge and perspectives on this topic. Same to you Trooper. I was especially interested to learn about some differences between Reno and Benteen as in if Benteen had led the charge ...

Ales, I've got to say you've got me laughing. Excellent comic relief. ... some interesting ideas too ...