The Little Bighorn (3 Viewers)

[lancer]

Look about Custer.Lets be honest,he was a farm boy,grow up in the farm,his mother was a farmer,his father was a farmer,...he will be unimportant if there is no civil war.He was leading this 60 charges because no one else was so stupid to do this.He was stupid and brave enough.You do not need to think nothing when you chrage,you just sit on the horse and chargeeeeeee! And off course you must be brave and he was brave,but that is all he was.Deep in his soul he was still farm boy,chasing around chikeens,playing with dirt,...like all farm boys.He was not an inteligent person.He do not know nothing about strategy,he was a bully,he try everything with courage,force,...but he was not smart enough-that is it.There is no other opinion.
Like if you put an farm boy from straight from the farm,without any education(and Custer is poor west point education) to work in the bank or in the hospital,....what do you think the result will be?
Like if you know how to eat that doesnt make you a cook!

Like I said, a "Missouri boat ride".

 

[UKReb]

You have done that extremely well as always mate but I do hope you do not discontinue your comments since I think ALL of us really find them very informative and interesting. I do hope we have room here for differing opinions of all types, even those based on differing depths of information. I certainly wouldn't question the basis for your opinion that Custer was not stupid but it was rather ironic that the last in his class finally made what is consider by many to be a colossal tactical blunder. Perhaps he relied on his passion and daring one time too many.

Bill I did put a smiley face at the end of my comment Young or not so young Ales I believe to be the biggest leg puller we have ever had on the forum.

Colossal tactical blunder? In my last post I asked what if the more experienced Benteen had led the charge through the village instead of Reno? Let me expand a bit more on that.

Reno was ordered by Custer in the person of Cooke (Custer's adjutant) to cross the river and charge the Indian village and that he would be supported by the whole outfit. It is quite obvious that Custer never intended his command to appear behind or beside Reno. Reno was part diversion part strike force- the Indian at the time Reno began his charge were completely unaware of Custer's presence on the eastern bluffs- he had his surprise. This was Custer's customary tactic during the civil war, he would execute a frontal assault while sending one or two detachments on a flanking movement. Custer meant to support Reno when the two commands met inside the village.

If Reno had continued his charge instead of halting it it would have caused chaos amongst the Indian leaving them little time to organise a defense or counterattack. Individual units from Custer's command would then have descended into the village from the various coulees/ravines and struck the village in various parts of the center.

Custer had already sent a rider- Sergeant Kanipe- to bring Benteen back but when he rode to the top most point of the bluffs he saw for the first time the sheer size of the village-that is when he got Cooke to write his famous last message- again to Benteen via Private Martin.

Benteen Come on Big village
Be quick. Bring Packs
W.W.Cooke.
PS Bring Pacs (sic)

Note Bring Packs twice indicating nervous excitement perhaps-or experienced soldiers knowing they may just need that extra ammunition.

But by now Reno had halted his charge whereas Custer expected him to continue. Reno made the case that to have charged the village would have been tantamount to suicide but his orders were not discretionary. He was not told to use his best judgement on whether to charge the village-subordinates obey orders from superior officers-without question-or face severe punishment. Soldiers throughout history have made charges into the cannon's mouth under more desperate circumstances than Reno faced as he began his charge-he halted it a half mile from the village without a single casualty??.
He disobeyed his orders!

Custer unaware of this and he would not expect his second in command to disobey him attempted his ascent into the village but was met by a mass of warriors who should have been tackling Reno or organising their families escape. We know the rest.

No other theory about this battle makes any sense whatsoever. Reno charges the village in the valley. Custer descends from the Eastern Bluffs and wades into the camp. Benteen rushes up with reinforcements and ammunition. Unless of course you except Ales conclusions that Custer was absolutely stupid

Reb

 

[Spitfrnd]

Bill I did put a smiley face at the end of my comment Young or not so young Ales I believe to be the biggest leg puller we have ever had on the forum.

Colossal tactical blunder? In my last post I asked what if the more experienced Benteen had led the charge through the village instead of Reno? Let me expand a bit more on that.

Reno was ordered by Custer in the person of Cooke (Custer's adjutant) to cross the river and charge the Indian village and that he would be supported by the whole outfit. It is quite obvious that Custer never intended his command to appear behind or beside Reno. Reno was part diversion part strike force- the Indian at the time Reno began his charge were completely unaware of Custer's presence on the eastern bluffs- he had his surprise. This was Custer's customary tactic during the civil war, he would execute a frontal assault while sending one or two detachments on a flanking movement. Custer meant to support Reno when the two commands met inside the village.

If Reno had continued his charge instead of halting it it would have caused chaos amongst the Indian leaving them little time to organise a defense or counterattack. Individual units from Custer's command would then have descended into the village from the various coulees/ravines and struck the village in various parts of the center.

Custer had already sent a rider- Sergeant Kanipe- to bring Benteen back but when he rode to the top most point of the bluffs he saw for the first time the sheer size of the village-that is when he got Cooke to write his famous last message- again to Benteen via Private Martin.

Benteen Come on Big village
Be quick. Bring Packs
W.W.Cooke.
PS Bring Pacs (sic)

Note Bring Packs twice indicating nervous excitement perhaps-or experienced soldiers knowing they may just need that extra ammunition.

But by now Reno had halted his charge whereas Custer expected him to continue. Reno made the case that to have charged the village would have been tantamount to suicide but his orders were not discretionary. He was not told to use his best judgement on whether to charge the village-subordinates obey orders from superior officers-without question-or face severe punishment. Soldiers throughout history have made charges into the cannon's mouth under more desperate circumstances than Reno faced as he began his charge-he halted it a half mile from the village without a single casualty??.
He disobeyed his orders!

Custer unaware of this and he would not expect his second in command to disobey him attempted his ascent into the village but was met by a mass of warriors who should have been tackling Reno or organising their families escape. We know the rest.

No other theory about this battle makes any sense whatsoever. Reno charges the village in the valley. Custer descends from the Eastern Bluffs and wades into the camp. Benteen rushes up with reinforcements and ammunition.

Reb

Interesting as always Bob but I am not clear why you think the attack would have been successful even if Reno had not withdrawn. As it was, didn't he draw off and occupy the attention of a fair number of warriors? Had he continued, would the surprise of Custer's charge really been that effective given the disportionate odds? Would Custer have had surprise in any event given that it is said his movements had been discovered and the village warned by some boys collecting stray ponies?

As to the do or die part of orders, well that makes good reading but the reality is very few desire to die for nothing and discretion or not, officers throughout history make on the spot judgments based on information that their superiors did not have. Usually they are not judged harshly for this and often they are rewarded for their adaptiveness. A diversion that comes at the cost of an entire command seems a bit excessive. That does not mean that Reno's actions were right, only that it may not have mattered.

 

[UKReb]

Interesting as always Bob but I am not clear why you think the attack would have been successful even if Reno had not withdrawn. As it was, didn't he draw off and occupy the attention of a fair number of warriors? Had he continued, would the surprise of Custer's charge really been that effective given the disportionate odds? Would Custer have had surprise in any event given that it is said his movements had been discovered and the village warned by some boys collecting stray ponies?

As to the do or die part of orders, well that makes good reading but the reality is very few desire to die for nothing and discretion or not, officers throughout history make on the spot judgments based on information that their superiors did not have. Usually they are not judged harshly for this and often they are rewarded for their adaptiveness. A diversion that comes at the cost of an entire command seems a bit excessive. That does not mean that Reno's actions were right, only that it may not have mattered.

Charge of the Light Brigade? The First Minnesota Volunteers at Gettysburg? Come on Bill I thought you was a military man.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Charge of the Light Brigade? The First Minnesota Volunteers at Gettysburg? Come on Bill I thought you was a military man.

Yes and happy to have survived that experience. The Charge of the Light Brigade was certainly glorious but not very intelligent and certainly not an order I would have obeyed without question.

 

[UKReb]

Interesting as always Bob but I am not clear why you think the attack would have been successful even if Reno had not withdrawn. As it was, didn't he draw off and occupy the attention of a fair number of warriors? Had he continued, would the surprise of Custer's charge really been that effective given the disportionate odds? Would Custer have had surprise in any event given that it is said his movements had been discovered and the village warned by some boys collecting stray ponies?

As to the do or die part of orders, well that makes good reading but the reality is very few desire to die for nothing and discretion or not, officers throughout history make on the spot judgments based on information that their superiors did not have. Usually they are not judged harshly for this and often they are rewarded for their adaptiveness. A diversion that comes at the cost of an entire command seems a bit excessive. That does not mean that Reno's actions were right, only that it may not have mattered.

By the time Reno halted and run a skirmish line-the Indian had time to re-organise and press a counter-attack. His orders of "Mount"-Dismount-Mount again" smacks of blind panic all the time looking around for Custer's support. His command began to receive heavy casualties.
By now Custer's command had been spotted -Keogh's command trying to cross the river from the ravines-Gaul the Hunkpapa chief called off his warriors to assault the threat now coming from Custer leaving a smaller force to deal with Reno's dismounted troops in the timber.

The two Indian boys had seen Reno's troops not Custer's.

Reb

 

[Louis Badolato]

Charge of the Light Brigade? The First Minnesota Volunteers at Gettysburg? Come on Bill I thought you was a military man.

Reb,

I generally tend to defer to your military knowledge and agree with most of your conclusions, but the Charge of the Light Brigade was a classic example of the disaster that results from blindly following a poorly thought out order. Had the Chasseurs D'Afrique not executed a textbook light cavalry attack on the gun positions (permitting the survivors of the charge to escape) that ridiculous charge would have resulted in the loss of virtually the entire Light Brigade for absolutely no gain.

It would appear to me that Reno realized the futility of changing into that village (far larger than Custer believed it to be) and attempted to abort the attack before it resulted in a disaster of monumental proportions. Sadly for his command, it was too late.

Custer may not have been a complete idiot as Ales suggests (and as James Brudenell, the Sixth Earl of Cardigan actually was), but his decision to attack that village without any idea of its size or the disposition of the Indian forces was a blunder on the level of Raglan's and Cardigan's at Balaclava. I am not a military officer, but I cannot imagine how an attack with 500-600 men on 5,000+ Plains Indians, generally considered to be excellent irregular light cavalry was a wise move. I suspect that Custers quest for glory clouded his judgment. Hindsight is always 20-20, but at least to me it would appear that (1) performing a proper recon of the village, to establish the size and disposition of enemy forces, (2) upon discovering he was outnumbered to the toon of 10-1, waiting for the forces that were on route to rendevous with Custer, while (3) keeping a careful eye on the Village with scouts, and perhaps attacking a smaller group if the village split up and tried to escape, was the proper course of action. Dividing up his forces to attempt an attack that had been successful against regular forces in a different war (where Custer's force was not the only unit on the field and he could expect assistance if there was a problem), was about as bad an idea as I can think of under the circumstances. If I were trying to cause a disaster, I would be hard pressed to think of a better way to bring one about under these facts. Custer, however, did not know all of the facts, and, to me, his blunder was not finding out what he was up against before acting.

 

[Aleš]

ok,now is time to get serious.
First of all;
Why do you think indians form this allians(betwen Sioux and Chayene and even Arapaho) at the sun dance?
I doubt that they form this alliance just to go bufalo hunt together.They know that it will go to war,so that is why they gather around.They are preparing to go to a war.They make a big village and every day the wariors from diferent tribe join in and the numbers of the warior is bigger every day.
Second;
This are not the sheaperd,farm boys,...but the ELITE of wariors,proven in battles many times(fighting with the Crows,Sioux indian war from 1862-1872,by red clowd),than Chayene also have their moments.They also have good weapons(where do you think they get if they do not get it from battle).They join for only one purpose-WAR.
Third;
They know excatly what they are doing,i am sure they have their scouts too and they know when the Custer is comming,from which direction,how many soldiers,...
Forth;
They make a plan.Unlike Custer they didnt divide their force,but they was ready,i ams ure they also put some wariors to be at the watch even at night,because like i say they didnt gather for buffalo hunt.They gather for war.
So if we know all that than we know that they were ready.Which we can not say for Custer.Even that the crow scouts tell Custer that this is very big vilage that it must have many wariors Custer didnt listen to them(??!!???).At least he can do is that he go to check out for himself,but noooooooooooo!
He make no plan at all,or atleast a very poor plan.Because he divide his force with no good reason.He send Benteen to far away,he send Reno to charge a village with out any plan at all.What was the purpose of this Reno charge anyway?Indians was expekt them and then after the Reno charge they go fight with him and he lost some of the man,he retreat(run away is a better word),than Benten have an excuse he must protect the wounded so Custer left alone,easy target for an expirience wariors.
But if the Custer was not so hungry for glory he can wait for another general Crook i think or what was his name to arrive and than they will fight together and maybe they will win or not but it will be even more interesting war.But this is not worth the Custer name.It was a disaster.His hungry for glory cost him his live and the lives of other people.I am ok if he die alone because of this,but because of him die a lot of other people who nobody know their name,and he is an Hero?Come on get serious.If he survive he must go to a court to be judge and run from an Army.
Only problem with the indians is this that they didnt have no idea how many white man is.They think that now they win and they will be left alone.So they say goodbye to each other after the battle,instead of stay together and prepare for another battle.
I hate people who fight for glory.It is ok to fight for your land,your home,your family,...but to fight for glory,just to be in a newspaper or something like this it is crazy.All of them soon wannt more glory and after that they are defeated,because there is always someone better than you are.Like Napoleon,he was good soldier but than start to be famous,he wannt more and more and at the end he was run away two times,from his own people.That is why i like France.They just do not take crap from no one.Use to be English that way too,but last 50 years they get lost.

 

[lancer]

This just gets better and better.

 

[Spitfrnd]

This just gets better and better.

Indeed.

Louis elaborated on what I meant rather nicely. The tactical blunder to me was in underestimating his enemy, in numbers, resolve and skill; that seldom turns out well.

 

[lancer]

Indeed.

Louis elaborated on what I meant rather nicely. The tactical blunder to me was in underestimating his enemy, in numbers, resolve and skill; that seldom turns out well.

I think you got it in a nutshell. When one does not bother to respect one's enemy and take into account what he is capable of, as opposed to what you think he will do, disaster often ensues. -- lancer

 

[damian]

Custer's biggest mistake was not taking John Wayne with him.

 

[UKReb]

Reb,

I generally tend to defer to your military knowledge and agree with most of your conclusions, but the Charge of the Light Brigade was a classic example of the disaster that results from blindly following a poorly thought out order. Had the Chasseurs D'Afrique not executed a textbook light cavalry attack on the gun positions (permitting the survivors of the charge to escape) that ridiculous charge would have resulted in the loss of virtually the entire Light Brigade for absolutely no gain.

It would appear to me that Reno realized the futility of changing into that village (far larger than Custer believed it to be) and attempted to abort the attack before it resulted in a disaster of monumental proportions. Sadly for his command, it was too late.

Custer may not have been a complete idiot as Ales suggests (and as James Brudenell, the Sixth Earl of Cardigan actually was), but his decision to attack that village without any idea of its size or the disposition of the Indian forces was a blunder on the level of Raglan's and Cardigan's at Balaclava. I am not a military officer, but I cannot imagine how an attack with 500-600 men on 5,000+ Plains Indians, generally considered to be excellent irregular light cavalry was a wise move. I suspect that Custers quest for glory clouded his judgment. Hindsight is always 20-20, but at least to me it would appear that (1) performing a proper recon of the village, to establish the size and disposition of enemy forces, (2) upon discovering he was outnumbered to the toon of 10-1, waiting for the forces that were on route to rendevous with Custer, while (3) keeping a careful eye on the Village with scouts, and perhaps attacking a smaller group if the village split up and tried to escape, was the proper course of action. Dividing up his forces to attempt an attack that had been successful against regular forces in a different war (where Custer's force was not the only unit on the field and he could expect assistance if there was a problem), was about as bad an idea as I can think of under the circumstances. If I were trying to cause a disaster, I would be hard pressed to think of a better way to bring one about under these facts. Custer, however, did not know all of the facts, and, to me, his blunder was not finding out what he was up against before acting.

Louis

Excellent logical reasoning-however you have left out a key ingredient to Custer's logic for making the attack-the Indian when facing an army assault always, always ran. They never, never stood and fought-the whole campaign was planned on the strategy of-seek and destroy if you can but don't let them escape.

The fact that 10,000 Indians (3-4000 fighting braves) had gathered together in one massive village was unparalleled and the fact that they stood and fought the troopers was a whole new ball-game for the US Army. Crook had been beaten to a frazzle on the Rosebud a week before and had fallen back to regroup-effectively putting him out of the campaign. Custer did not know this or that this gathering of tribes was willing to fight and die this time-Custer firmly believed after chasing Indians for a decade that he knew his enemy well but at the LBH he most certainly didn't but neither did anyone else except Crook back at Fort Fetterman licking his wounds. True if Reno had continued the charge and Custer had joined him with Benteen rushing to both their aid they may have still been beaten due to the unusual ferocity of the Indian that day but 600 soldiers would have stood a much better chance than Custer's 200 out in the open. That was his plan!

Have to also disagree with your theory of Reno aborting the charge due to the size of the village-from his position when he commenced his charge right up to him halting it half mile from the perimeter he could only see at the very most 10% of the total size as the mass veered off to the left and spread out over an area of 3-4 miles. Reno and Benteen still had no idea how many hostiles were actually gathered at the LBH until long after they had been relieved by Terry's column.

Look guys I am not saying that Custer was not at fault here- he was the overall commander that day so the loss of his regiment was down to him-but I do get a little tired of guys just stating matter of factly that he was inept, stupid, purely glory hunting and believed only in his own BS without knowing what had made this man tick for the last sixteen years of his life. What he and his brothers Tom and Boston did believe in was "Custer's Luck" it had served them all well especially with Custer's recklessness during the ACW and all the brothers liked to quote- that when Napoleon was told of a "good general" he would always say "Yes but is he lucky?" as they added "Like Autie"

If Custer did believe he possessed this so-called "Custer's Luck" it most definitely ran out on that Sunday morning in June 1876

Reb

 

[Louis Badolato]

Reb,

I certainly agree that Custer expected the enemy to run, as the Indians had in the past, and that is why he committed what in my opinion was his fatal blunder. I made that very point in my first post on this thread. I am not faulting his expectations, I am merely pointing out that in this case, where the Indians had taken the unprecedented step of banding together to fight, it precipitated a disaster.

As far as Reno's charge, I cannot speak to how much of the village, or how many of the braves he could see, as I have never been there (you have the advantage of having walked the ground). However, even taking your estimate that he could see only 10% of the 10,000 Indians, he still saw 1,000 Indians, or twice as many Indians as Custer's entire command. I don't know about you Reb, but if I saw, say 500 Indians hightailing it right at me on horses to protect their women and children, and I had only a tiny fraction of that number of troops in my command, and realised that they were not being surprised by my attack, but appeared to be ready to defend themselves vigorously, I think I would have aborted what would appear to be a suicidal attack. On the other hand, he might have been a coward. I don't know. I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt, as he is not alive to defend himself, just as you appear to prefer to give Custer the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his plans.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Louis
.....
Look guys I am not saying that Custer was not at fault here- he was the overall commander that day so the loss of his regiment was down to him-but I do get a little tired of guys just stating matter of factly that he was inept, stupid, purely glory hunting and believed only in his own BS without knowing what had made this man tick for the last sixteen years of his life. What he and his brothers Tom and Boston did believe in was "Custer's Luck" it had served them all well especially with Custer's recklessness during the ACW and all the brothers liked to quote- that when Napoleon was told of a "good general" he would always say "Yes but is he lucky?" as they added "Like Autie"
....

I don't think we (well most of us anyway) are labeling Custer with those extreme epithets, which like most extremes are almost always wrong. That said, is there any doubt, based on many accounts of Custer's own words, that he was very much out for glory here, which he did not particularly want to share with another commander? That he did not give any thought to the possibility that a vastly numerically superior force might fight is a bit much for me as well.

 

[maddadicus]

Louis

Excellent logical reasoning-however you have left out a key ingredient to Custer's logic for making the attack-the Indian when facing an army assault always, always ran. They never, never stood and fought-the whole campaign was planned on the strategy of-seek and destroy if you can but don't let them escape.

The fact that 10,000 Indians (3-4000 fighting braves) had gathered together in one massive village was unparalleled and the fact that they stood and fought the troopers was a whole new ball-game for the US Army. Crook had been beaten to a frazzle on the Rosebud a week before and had fallen back to regroup-effectively putting him out of the campaign. Custer did not know this or that this gathering of tribes was willing to fight and die this time-Custer firmly believed after chasing Indians for a decade that he knew his enemy well but at the LBH he most certainly didn't but neither did anyone else except Crook back at Fort Fetterman licking his wounds. True if Reno had continued the charge and Custer had joined him with Benteen rushing to both their aid they may have still been beaten due to the unusual ferocity of the Indian that day but 600 soldiers would have stood a much better chance than Custer's 200 out in the open. That was his plan!

Have to also disagree with your theory of Reno aborting the charge due to the size of the village-from his position when he commenced his charge right up to him halting it half mile from the perimeter he could only see at the very most 10% of the total size as the mass veered off to the left and spread out over an area of 3-4 miles. Reno and Benteen still had no idea how many hostiles were actually gathered at the LBH until long after they had been relieved by Terry's column.

Look guys I am not saying that Custer was not at fault here- he was the overall commander that day so the loss of his regiment was down to him-but I do get a little tired of guys just stating matter of factly that he was inept, stupid, purely glory hunting and believed only in his own BS without knowing what had made this man tick for the last sixteen years of his life. What he and his brothers Tom and Boston did believe in was "Custer's Luck" it had served them all well especially with Custer's recklessness during the ACW and all the brothers liked to quote- that when Napoleon was told of a "good general" he would always say "Yes but is he lucky?" as they added "Like Autie"

If Custer did believe he possessed this so-called "Custer's Luck" it most definitely ran out on that Sunday morning in June 1876

Reb

Dear Reb, there is only one poster so far calling Custer, names.. The reason I started this and am enjoying it, is because most Custer forums would beat you down, if one said anything negative about Custer or tried to defend Reno and Benteen..We are having some fun with Ales, but the anti Reno/Benteen poison from other discussion groups, caused me to quit a few of them..Benteen would have charged the village as ordered, but the fact that Custer was not able to get in position fast enough ( immense size of village and the various coulees restricting cavalry movement )would probably have led Benteen to fight teepee to teepee and be overwhelmed. Again, the soldiers and indian's after reports, all state that the cavalry horses were spent and incapable of sustained action...( 60 miles in 2 days ). You folks have convinced me that the strategy of that period dictated the separation of forces, but the very fact that Benteen was sent so far from the action, either was a catty political decision, or Custer had no idea of what he was facing. If he had the time to separate his command, he had the time to fully reconoiter the indian encampment. Then the various elements would properly have been positioned at the fords , with near 700 men consolidated to roll down on the village. It is easy for us to refight the battle from our armchairs, and I tend to lean toward defending Benteen and even Reno more than most, but no one can say that Custer or his men were cowards, that day. This battle can be likened to Isandluwana, and the parallels are uncanny as to the dividing of force, overconfident commanders, political pressure, lack of enemy and terrain intelligence, and overwhelming numbers of enemy combatants. Bottom line is that I am not sure that anything we might figure out in hindsight, would have changed the results, in either battle..Michael

 

[OzDigger]

Like I said, a "Missouri boat ride".

Can I get a translation of "Missouri boat ride" as it's not a phrase we use in Australia.

 

[OzDigger]

ok,now is time to get serious.
First of all;
Why do you think indians form this allians(betwen Sioux and Chayene and even Arapaho) at the sun dance?
I doubt that they form this alliance just to go bufalo hunt together.They know that it will go to war,so that is why they gather around.They are preparing to go to a war.They make a big village and every day the wariors from diferent tribe join in and the numbers of the warior is bigger every day.
Second;
This are not the sheaperd,farm boys,...but the ELITE of wariors,proven in battles many times(fighting with the Crows,Sioux indian war from 1862-1872,by red clowd),than Chayene also have their moments.They also have good weapons(where do you think they get if they do not get it from battle).They join for only one purpose-WAR.
Third;
They know excatly what they are doing,i am sure they have their scouts too and they know when the Custer is comming,from which direction,how many soldiers,...
Forth;
They make a plan.Unlike Custer they didnt divide their force,but they was ready,i ams ure they also put some wariors to be at the watch even at night,because like i say they didnt gather for buffalo hunt.They gather for war.
So if we know all that than we know that they were ready.Which we can not say for Custer.Even that the crow scouts tell Custer that this is very big vilage that it must have many wariors Custer didnt listen to them(??!!???).At least he can do is that he go to check out for himself,but noooooooooooo!
He make no plan at all,or atleast a very poor plan.Because he divide his force with no good reason.He send Benteen to far away,he send Reno to charge a village with out any plan at all.What was the purpose of this Reno charge anyway?Indians was expekt them and then after the Reno charge they go fight with him and he lost some of the man,he retreat(run away is a better word),than Benten have an excuse he must protect the wounded so Custer left alone,easy target for an expirience wariors.
But if the Custer was not so hungry for glory he can wait for another general Crook i think or what was his name to arrive and than they will fight together and maybe they will win or not but it will be even more interesting war.But this is not worth the Custer name.It was a disaster.His hungry for glory cost him his live and the lives of other people.I am ok if he die alone because of this,but because of him die a lot of other people who nobody know their name,and he is an Hero?Come on get serious.If he survive he must go to a court to be judge and run from an Army.
Only problem with the indians is this that they didnt have no idea how many white man is.They think that now they win and they will be left alone.So they say goodbye to each other after the battle,instead of stay together and prepare for another battle.
I hate people who fight for glory. It is ok to fight for your land,your home,your family,...but to fight for glory,just to be in a newspaper or something like this it is crazy.All of them soon wannt more glory and after that they are defeated,because there is always someone better than you are.Like Napoleon,he was good soldier but than start to be famous,he wannt more and more and at the end he was run away two times,from his own people.That is why i like France.They just do not take crap from no one.Use to be English that way too,but last 50 years they get lost.

It's good to be an idealist - unless of course you deny some obvious facts.

I don't know nearly as much about US History as some members here but I do understand that Custer may have been foolhardy on occasion but clearly he wasn't an idiot. People make mistakes in the heat of battle and also in the planning leading up to battles, that's just human nature, so I really can't understand your excessive hatred of Custer.

Why do you confine the GLORY put-down to US soldiers, especially Custer. Glory, together with foolhardy bravery, often played a large part in the culture of the American Indian Warrior with 'counting coup' being a classic example.

The two sides (US Government/people and American Indians) were fighting over land they now considered to be THEIRS, so they both had a similar glory claim. Previously the various Indian tribes had fought and stolen land from other tribes, now they had a much bigger tribe to fight being the US government and its citizens. This was a fight they could never win and they had to adapt over time the same as the Australian Aborigine. It's not always fair but there will always be winners and losers in the battle for survival. "Their politics like ours profess, the greater prey upon the less".

Btw, those French took a lot of crap from the Germans over several years during WWII - until those Yanks, with other allies, got them out of their bind

 

[aujj65]

Can I get a translation of "Missouri boat ride" as it's not a phrase we use in Australia.

Btw, what does "shag a$$" mean in the US. My youngest son and I fell off the sofa laughing when we heard a character in "Supernatural" use that phrase last night - it means something very different in Australia

Same here!

Jeff

 

[UKReb]

Dear Reb, there is only one poster so far calling Custer, names.. The reason I started this and am enjoying it, is because most Custer forums would beat you down, if one said anything negative about Custer or tried to defend Reno and Benteen..We are having some fun with Ales, but the anti Reno/Benteen poison from other discussion groups, caused me to quit a few of them..Benteen would have charged the village as ordered, but the fact that Custer was not able to get in position fast enough ( immense size of village and the various coulees restricting cavalry movement )would probably have led Benteen to fight teepee to teepee and be overwhelmed. Again, the soldiers and indian's after reports, all state that the cavalry horses were spent and incapable of sustained action...( 60 miles in 2 days ). You folks have convinced me that the strategy of that period dictated the separation of forces, but the very fact that Benteen was sent so far from the action, either was a catty political decision, or Custer had no idea of what he was facing. If he had the time to separate his command, he had the time to fully reconoiter the indian encampment. Then the various elements would properly have been positioned at the fords , with near 700 men consolidated to roll down on the village. It is easy for us to refight the battle from our armchairs, and I tend to lean toward defending Benteen and even Reno more than most, but no one can say that Custer or his men were cowards, that day. This battle can be likened to Isandluwana, and the parallels are uncanny as to the dividing of force, overconfident commanders, political pressure, lack of enemy and terrain intelligence, and overwhelming numbers of enemy combatants. Bottom line is that I am not sure that anything we might figure out in hindsight, would have changed the results, in either battle..Michael

I was also referring to previous threads on here such as the recent new Custer film and the deleted Indian wars where there were indeed Custer comments such as my quotes.

Yes he was without doubt sometimes a vain glorious man and the great Custer historian Brian Dippie placed him perfectly when he wrote ..."that between the last of the cavaliers and the glory hunter a man waits to be discovered but unfortunately the disputatious nature of almost all writing on Custer continues to cast an obscuring shadow" That shadow is the fact that Custer was the commander at the LBH who caused the deaths of over 250 of his men and very few authors today would describe his actions at the LBH as charging like Murat and dying like Leonidas.

Any student of the battle who is worth his salt and after analysing all the facts available to him today cannot blame Reno or Benteen it lies solely with Custer. I do not profess to know what has baffled historians for over a 120 years on why an experienced cavalry commander killed himself and his command on the Greasy Grass. There will never be a definitive conclusion to that mystery.

Yet "Custer's Last Stand" still remains today an enigmatic myth unlike any other. He and his troopers will be forever glued to that ridge like our toy soldiers in one of our dios.

Anyway enough of my meanderings-the LBH battlefield is in a very remote location, one can walk or rather trek the area of the Custer fight and then drive 4 miles south to the Reno-Benteen defense site. I found it entirely different to other battlefields I have visited such as Waterloo; Gettysburg; Antietam; Omaha; Verdun; The Somme; Vimy Ridge etc. where you are only too aware that you are walking hallowed ground. As I stated on another post you are overwhelmed with the vastness of the area and I had this uncanny feeling here as the wind rustled the grass over the undulating ridges that I was walking with ghosts.

The attached area I personally felt was the eeriest this is the Deep Ravine where 28 men from E Troop were cut off by the Indians from reaching Custer fighting on the ridge. They tried to escape but were shot/hacked to pieces in the bottom of that gully. The bodies were hastily buried by Terry's men where they laid and then many months later reburied on Custer's ridge. However, due to adverse weather conditions half of the temporary markers were lost and they only found half of the bodies, somewhere in the bottom of that ridge lie sleeping a dozen unknown brave 7th Cavalry troopers.
It got to me!

Reb