This day in History (4 Viewers)

[Panzer ace]

Tank,

You-"Can you please provide me with the sourses and the facts your believes are based on."

Me-"Nyet"

I do have a little knowledge on the subject on the academic level, but do not claim to be an expert, nor do I want to be. Unlike the Nazis, the Russians were not good bookkeepers and if you think for one minute that the death toll in Russia under Stalin was reported correctly, then my friend you live in historical bliss. But hey, my opinions are my own and like assholes everyones got one.

John from Texas

PS: Hey Rut, you nailed it.

John:

I did find this (among many others) regarding Dekulakization as it relates to Stalin:


Dekulakization was the Soviet campaign of political repressions, including arrests, deportations, and executions of millions of kulaks (prosperous peasants) and their families in the 1929–1932 period of the first five-year plan.

Joseph Stalin announced the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" on 27 December 1929. Stalin had said: "Now we have the opportunity to carry out a resolute offensive against the kulaks, break their resistance, eliminate them as a class and replace their production with the production of kolkhozes and sovkhozes." The Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party formalized the decision in a resolution titled "On measures for the elimination of kulak households in districts of comprehensive collectivization" on 30 January 1930. All kulaks were assigned to one of three categories:

1. Those to be shot or imprisoned as decided by the local secret political police
2. Those to be sent to Siberia, the North, the Urals or Kazakhstan, after confiscation of their property
3. Those to be evicted from their houses and used in labor colonies within their own districts

Hunger, disease and mass executions during dekulakization led to at least 530,000 to 600,000 deaths from 1929 to 1933, though higher estimates also exist, with historian Robert Conquest estimating that six million people may have died.



Sources:

Lynne Viola "The Unknown Gulag. The Lost World of Stalin's Special Settlements" - Oxford University Press 2007;
Robert Conquest "The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine." - Oxford University Press 1986

 

[tank]

John:

I did find this (among many others) regarding Dekulakization as it relates to Stalin:

Hunger, disease and mass executions during dekulakization led to at least 530,000 to 600,000 deaths from 1929 to 1933, thoughhigher estimates also exist, with historian Robert Conquest estimating that six million people may have died.

Sources:

Lynne Viola "The Unknown Gulag. The Lost World of Stalin's Special Settlements" - Oxford University Press 2007;
Robert Conquest "The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine." - Oxford University Press 1986

This is the only source I could find that says about the Robert Conquest’s - six million people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization

No one knows where Robert Conquest got that number from.
Looks like it the same myth as 2 millions “raped” German women durring the Red Army advance in Berlin in April - May 1945.{sm4}

Robert Conquest’s - six million people - the MYTH.


1. confirmation.

In total, in 1929–40, R. was subjected to approx. 1.1 million households (4–5% of their total number, 5–6 million people; data by N. A. Ivnitsky), 4 million people. was expelled (some of them - after being released from prisons and ITL; data of V. N. Zemskov). During the same time, at least 600 thousand people died of hunger and disease. Most dispossessed were in reality middle peasants. Many surviving special settlers (labor settlers) have become a source of labor for the development of nature. sowing resources and east. areas of the USSR.

https://bigenc.ru/domestic_history/text/3494029

2.confirmation

The masses of "dispossessed" turned into an almost free labor force, which was sent to the construction sites. Therefore, the state was also interested in increasing the number of dispossessed. Dekulakization caused the ruin of the most productive farms and a sharp drop in agricultural production. Dekulakization caused the death of about 600 thousand people.

https://w.histrf.ru/articles/article/show/raskulachivaniie


3. confirmation

According to secret reports of the repressive organs, the number of “kulaks arrested in category 1” for the 1 October 1930 was as follows:

* According to secret reports of the repressive organs, the number of “kulaks arrested in category 1” for 1 October 1930 was as follows: for the first period of dispossession before April 15, 1930 some 140,724 people were arrested, of whom 79,330 were kulaks, 5028 were churchmen, 4405 were the former landowners and manufacturers, 51 961 were anti-Soviet elements.

* For the second period of dispossession from 15 April 1930 to 1 October 1930 some 142,993 people were arrested, of whom 45,559 were kulaks and 97,434 were anti-Soviet elements.

* In 1931, “in January alone ... 36,698 arrests were recorded,” and the “overwhelming majority of arrested were the kulak-anti-Soviet elements k / r” [40].


In total for 1930-1931, as indicated in the certificate of the Department for Special Migrants to Gulag of the OGPU, 381,026 families with a total number of 1,803,392 people were sent to the special allocated areas. During 1932-1940, another 489,822 dispossessed arrived to the special allocated areas [41].

The department of the central registry of the OGPU in the certificate of eviction the kulaks from the beginning of 1930 to 30 September 1931 determined the number of “special settlers” as 517,665 families or 2,437,062 people [40].

Relocated families “in 2 categories” often escaped from the allocated areas as it was difficult to survive in undeveloped areas. In the period from 1932 to 1940, the number of “runaway kulaks” amounted to 629,042 people, of which 235,120 people were caught and returned to the allocated areas [40].

Number of victims.

According to the data of the historian and researcher of the repressions V. N. Zemskov, about 4 million people were dispossessed in total (it is difficult to establish the exact number) [52], 2.5 million of them went into kulak exile in 1930-1940. During this period some 600 thousand people died in exile, the vast majority of them died in 1930-1933 [53].
Mortality rates among special settlers exceeded the birth rate from 7.8 times (among "old-timers") to 40 times (among "new settlers") [54].

According to BBC journalist A. Krechetnikov, there was a secret certificate prepared in 1934 by the OGPU operational accounting department, according to which about 90 thousand kulaks died along the way and another 300 thousand died from malnutrition and illness in places of exile [55] [non-authoritative source?].

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Раскулачивание





P.S. So much interest about hunger death in Russia and absolutely no mention about the famine durring the Great Depression what killed some 7 millions Americans in 1932 - 1933.

Fascinated.

 

[Desertkiwi]

I think we can all agree Stalin was not a particularly nice bloke!

 

[hotel3alpha]

I think we can all agree Stalin was not a particularly nice bloke!

Yup, Stalin was a true gem. I really don't know why Tank thinks this forum is a moot court to prove his case(s) on Russian history. But, I don't blame him for his pride though. I dig reading his voluminous history lessons, but could do with out the tit for tats as I mentioned that no country is with out sin...even Bhutan. I've ran into guys like this before and they go on and on and on and on and...you get the picture and prove themselves to be stuck in their own solipsistic ways.

The ole USA was built on death, destruction, lies, injustice, sin and hasn't changed a bit. We do our best and try to atone for our past deeds, but we are not a perfect union. We strive to be, but that takes practice and most importantly time. I loathe the pontificators who use platforms to preach their political propaganda AS IF their world is a utopia and look down their noses at the rest of us. A few countries come to mind, but honestly I don't have the time or patience to care.

John from Texas

 

[theBaron]

I think we can all agree Stalin was not a particularly nice bloke!

Except, apparently, for one apologist whose profile claims he's a fellow countryman of yours.

 

[Panzer ace]

This is the only source I could find that says about the Robert Conquest’s - six million people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization

No one knows where Robert Conquest got that number from.
Looks like it the same myth as 2 millions “raped” German women durring the Red Army advance in Berlin in April - May 1945.{sm4}

Robert Conquest’s - six million people - the MYTH.

1. confirmation.

In total, in 1929–40, R. was subjected to approx. 1.1 million households (4–5% of their total number, 5–6 million people; data by N. A. Ivnitsky), 4 million people. was expelled (some of them - after being released from prisons and ITL; data of V. N. Zemskov). During the same time, at least 600 thousand people died of hunger and disease. Most dispossessed were in reality middle peasants. Many surviving special settlers (labor settlers) have become a source of labor for the development of nature. sowing resources and east. areas of the USSR.

https://bigenc.ru/domestic_history/text/3494029

2.confirmation

The masses of "dispossessed" turned into an almost free labor force, which was sent to the construction sites. Therefore, the state was also interested in increasing the number of dispossessed. Dekulakization caused the ruin of the most productive farms and a sharp drop in agricultural production. Dekulakization caused the death of about 600 thousand people.

https://w.histrf.ru/articles/article/show/raskulachivaniie


3. confirmation


Number of victims.

According to the data of the historian and researcher of the repressions V. N. Zemskov, about 4 million people were dispossessed in total (it is difficult to establish the exact number) [52], 2.5 million of them went into kulak exile in 1930-1940. During this period some 600 thousand people died in exile, the vast majority of them died in 1930-1933 [53].

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Раскулачивание


P.S. So much interest about hunger death in Russia and absolutely no mention about the famine durring the Great Depression what killed some 7 millions Americans in 1932 - 1933.

Fascinated.

I have no reason to doubt the figures of Robert Conquest, and if you read further about him you will see that other historians and researchers agree with him.

On the other hand, we can go with your figure of 600,000 deaths too. I grant you, when compared to the expansive amount of death and destruction that Stalin brought and/or caused this is but a drop in the bucket unless you are one of those 600,000 who were killed during Dekulakization.

And why bring up the Great Depression? The numbers I provided were in response to your request to John regarding Stalin. As masterful as he was at inflicting death and suffering, I highly doubt he had anything to do with any famines in the US. However, I will give your credit for attempting to (predictably) deflect the discussion away from Stalin.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Except, apparently, for one apologist whose profile claims he's a fellow countryman of yours.

Very true, although with the right kind of knowledge these days you can pretty make out you reside in any country these days.

I have this funny notion that Mr Tank is indeed a retired KGB agent spending his days writing his memoir down here in the sunny South Pacific.:wink2:

Lets face if he does in fact live down here, he's moved as far away from mother Russia as you can get...….

 

[tank]

Except, apparently, for one apologist whose profile claims he's a fellow countryman of yours.

What do Russians think of Stalin? - BBC News


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7rjaDBAe0w



Franklin D. Roosevelt

"I just have a hunch, that Stalin doesn't want anything but security for his country, and I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he wouldn't try to annex anything and will work with for a world of democracy and peace."




Chartwell on 10 July 1956.

Churchill, wrote Sulzberger, thought Stalin “a great man, above all compared to Khruschev and Bulganin,” and quoted Churchill as follows:

Stalin never broke his word to me. We agreed on the Balkans. I said he could have Rumania and Bulgaria; he said we could have Greece
(of course, only in our sphere, you know). He signed a slip of paper. And he never broke his word. We saved Greece that way. When we went in in 1944 Stalin didn’t interfere. You Americans didn’t help, you know.


Looks like you, guys know Stalin better than them.

Tank.



​

 

[tank]

Yup, Stalin was a true gem. I really don't know why Tank thinks this forum is a moot court to prove his case(s) on Russian history.

John from Texas

John.


Please read the article and hopefully you would know why.

The EU Is Rewriting WWII History to Demonize Russia

https://www.unz.com/article/the-eu-is-rewriting-wwii-history-to-demonize-russia/

Cheers.
Tank.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Late to this thread. Had thought most had been ignoring the Troll in two other threads but seems the action here.

By now all should be familiar with Tanks style. Two examples here :

He posts in depth about the myths of Stalin killing his own people and lessens the numbers. Then he compares it to the Great Depression which as far as I know the US President did not create to kill his own people.

Somebody mentions the famous incident of the German pilot escorting the US bomber. His response is to raise the issue of pilots (German and Allied) shooting parachuting pilots and he claims there is no evidence the Russians did. He fails to mention his link shows it was not an accepted practice. One has to wonder if a German pilot over Russia would prefer to be killed prior to capture on the ground.

He mentions ace Stanford Tuck. This is obviously a cut and paste where it was given as an example. However if Tank had actually read what he posted he will note in first incident Tuck flew low to wave to a downed pilot. The pilot shot up at him so he returned and killed him. In the 2nd incident a downed pilot was in the sea and was going to freeze to death. He shot him as a mercy killing. Neither fit his narrative and the fact he did not realise this is because facts do not matter to him.

His whole purpose here is to claim Russian military superiority over all other countries. Have a look at the Vietnam 67 thread and you can see he is setting up another "gotcha" by saying :

"To everyone:
Do you know what is this?


Durring the Vietnam War the brave US..."

Perhaps one of the US veterans here might like to ask him what his post means as I know he must be waiting with his quick reply.

His Sevastopol thread again compares a Russian event to Dunkirk which he has done before.

We have his latest about EU rewriting history WW2 to demonise Russia. As a reference he gives a web page I have never heard of. A look at its home page is all you need to know. Apparently the worst mistake in US history was to kill the Iranian General the other day and 9/11 was an Israeli job etc. I Googled the site and found one called Media Bias Fact Check where it says :

"Overall, we rate The Unz Review a Questionable Source due extreme right wing bias, promotion of propaganda and hate, as well as utilizing poor sources".

Well we all know Tank likes propaganda.

For an alternative view of his rewrite of history here is an article from Euronews (15 Jan) I found by Googling :

"The EU Commission has supported Poland in a dispute with Russia over the history of World War II.


The dispute stemmed in part from comments Putin made in December stating that the Polish ambassador to Berlin had praised Adolf Hitler's plans to exterminate Jews.


"The EU commission fully rejects any false claims that attempt to distort the history of the Second World War or paint the victims like Poland as perpetrators," said the EU's commissioner for values and transparency, Věra Jourová.


Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said in December that the Russian president was lying about the war's history, emphasising that as time passes it's important to speak the truth.


"The memory about this evil is particularly important for Poland - the war's first victim," Morawiecki said in a statement.


Manfred Weber, who leads the European People's Party said on Wednesday that the party would not accept "Putin's attempt to rewrite history".


"Every German politician has to assume the responsibility of our country. But every politician inside and outside of Europe also has the responsibility not to play with history," Weber told the EU's parliament during a debate.


"I cannot and we as EPP cannot accept Putin's attempt to rewrite history."


Putin has also criticised western powers for the 1938 Munich Agreement that allowed Hitler to annex Czechoslovakia, calling it an example of western powers' "collusion" with Hitler.


The Russian leader was lashing out after the European Parliament issued a resolution blaming World War II's outbreak in part on a nonaggression pact signed by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.


Putin called the European Parliament's resolution "sheer nonsense".


The dispute comes ahead of the 75th anniversary of the Allied victory this spring".

He is clearly a troll.

 

[tank]

We have his latest about EU rewriting history WW2 to demonise Russia. As a reference he gives a web page I have never heard of. A look at its home page is all you need to know. Apparently the worst mistake in US history was to kill the Iranian General the other day and 9/11 was an Israeli job etc. I Googled the site and found one called Media Bias Fact Check where it says :

"Overall, we rate The Unz Review a Questionable Source due extreme right wing bias, promotion of propaganda and hate, as well as utilizing poor sources".

Well we all know Tank likes propaganda.

For an alternative view of his rewrite of history here is an article from Euronews (15 Jan) I found by Googling :

"The EU Commission has supported Poland in a dispute with Russia over the history of World War II.


The dispute stemmed in part from comments Putin made in December stating that the Polish ambassador to Berlin had praised Adolf Hitler's plans to exterminate Jews.


"The EU commission fully rejects any false claims that attempt to distort the history of the Second World War or paint the victims like Poland as perpetrators," said the EU's commissioner for values and transparency, V„›ra Jourovƒ¡.


Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said in December that the Russian president was lying about the war's history, emphasising that as time passes it's important to speak the truth.


"The memory about this evil is particularly important for Poland - the war's first victim," Morawiecki said in a statement.


Manfred Weber, who leads the European People's Party said on Wednesday that the party would not accept "Putin's attempt to rewrite history".


"Every German politician has to assume the responsibility of our country. But every politician inside and outside of Europe also has the responsibility not to play with history," Weber told the EU's parliament during a debate.


"I cannot and we as EPP cannot accept Putin's attempt to rewrite history."


Putin has also criticised western powers for the 1938 Munich Agreement that allowed Hitler to annex Czechoslovakia, calling it an example of western powers' "collusion" with Hitler.


The Russian leader was lashing out after the European Parliament issued a resolution blaming World War II's outbreak in part on a nonaggression pact signed by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.


Putin called the European Parliament's resolution "sheer nonsense".


The dispute comes ahead of the 75th anniversary of the Allied victory this spring".

He is clearly a troll.

I hope you are smart enough to understand this.
Enjoy.

Please read the letter of the Polish Foreign Minister Jyzef Beck to Polish Ambassador to Germany Jyzef Lipski. September 19. 1938.

Here is the link for letter.

https://www.facebook.com/MIDRussia/photos/pcb.1133821040050669/1133818490050924/?type=3&theater



The Soviet Government Statement to the Poland Government.

Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Jyzef Beck in Nazi Germany. July 1935




The Poland wailing about the “mega-friendship” of the USSR and Germany amazes with its cynicism. It is necessary to remind the Poles, how Poland excitedly licked Hitler... Particularly touching are the photos where the Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Jyzef Becklays wreaths at the monument to German soldiers who occupied Poland during the World War I ...

Here are some picks of that.

https://omchanin.livejournal.com/2207846.html





Poland Army in Czechoslovakia 1938.

The question for Keitel at the Nuremberg trials:

Would Germany attack Czechoslovakia in 1938 if the Western powers supported Prague?

Keitel:

“Of course not. We were not strong from a military point of view. Munich’s goal was to oust Russia from Europe, gain time and complete the armament of Germany."

Tank.

 

[waynepoo]

Tank, there must be nothing left of that dead horse you keep flogging! By the way there was no Polish state during the Great War.
You are so one eyed your name should be Cyclops or should I say Циклоп.

 

[tank]

Tank, there must be nothing left of that dead horse you keep flogging! By the way there was no Polish state during the Great War.
You are so one eyed your name should be Cyclops or should I say Циклоп.

Hi Waine.

I’m really puzzled...

Why do you do it time after time?
Is it really difficult for you to check the info before you post it.

Please read this:

“the monument to German soldiers who occupied Poland during the World War I ... “

Can you show me please where in the sentence I said the “Polish state“.

Never mind. I hope you are having a good day. It is Friday after all.


Kind Regards.Tank.
P.S. Nice picture by the way.:salute::


The Kingdom of Poland (Polish: Kralestwo Polskie, also Congress Poland or Congress, from Polish: Kralestwo Kongresowe, Kongresawka) - territory in Central Europe, which was part of the Russian Empire by decision of the Vienna Congress from 1815 to 1915. In the summer of 1915, during the First World War, it was occupied by German and Austro-Hungarian troops. In November 1918 it became an independent state.


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Царство_Польское

 

[waynepoo]

Hi Waine.

I’m really puzzled...

Why do you do it time after time?
Is it really difficult for you to check the info before you post it.

Please read this:

“the monument to German soldiers who occupied Poland during the World War I ... “

Can you show me please where in the sentence I said the “Polish state“.

Never mind. I hope you are having a good day. It is Friday after all.


Kind Regards.Tank.
P.S. Nice picture by the way.:salute::


The Kingdom of Poland (Polish: Kralestwo Polskie, also Congress Poland or Congress, from Polish: Kralestwo Kongresowe, Kongresawka) - territory in Central Europe, which was part of the Russian Empire by decision of the Vienna Congress from 1815 to 1915. In the summer of 1915, during the First World War, it was occupied by German and Austro-Hungarian troops. In November 1918 it became an independent state.


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Царство_Польское

As I said there was was no Polish state during the Great War. And that horse has been flogged beyond all hope.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Tank,​

I think it is accepted by now that your only purpose here is to praise Russia and criticise other countries. A positive post here will be turned negative by you. Despite the fact you are an obvious Troll am happy to play with you.

First problem with your post and me understanding it is I do not read or understand Polish or Russian. Another issue is I wont be looking at any links you post as they nearly all seem to be Russian sites. By the way you posted statistics from the Democracy International Foundation, a Russian organisation founded over 25 years ago. How is the Democracy thing working out because I don't think Putin got the memo ? Hilarious that should be your source for reliable information as even their name is a joke.

You quoted Roosevelt as saying Stalin would not try to annex anything. He died before Stalin started annexing other European countries after WW2. ​

You quoted Churchill but the fact is Churchill was well aware of the dangers of Stalin / Russia before WW2 ended. You post pictures of the Polish Foreign Minister in Germany with Hitler in 1935. So what ? The Olympics were held in Germany during that period and I am guessing many Foreign Ministers visited Germany. Fact is Russia signed a pact with Germany just before WW2. Russia invaded Poland not long after.

Since you like to mention Poland what are your thoughts on the massacres of Poles committed by the Russians at Katyn. I recommend the movie Katyn. Your mate Stalin tried to blame the Germans for that one.

Laying wreaths at war memorials is a common practice by world leaders. The German leader attends memorials in Normandy when their side were the bad guys. However in the case of Poland in WW1 I note the Russians left and the Germans arrived. Polands history is complicated and has been difficult for them being in between Russia and Germany so to be expected they would try to be friendly with both.

Since you admire Russia so much and seem to look down on any other country when are you planning to return to Russia ?

Comrade.

​

​

 

[jazzeum]

It seems that every thread (or almost every thread) touched by Tank turns into a cesspool. I won’t do anything to encourage him, having learned that lesson many months ago.

 

[Desertkiwi]

It seems that every thread (or almost every thread) touched by Tank turns into a cesspool. I won’t do anything to encourage him, having learned that lesson many months ago.

Oh come on Brad a little encouragement from the sidelines won't hurt a bit. Lets face it he (or she) isn't going to stop with this dribble for some time yet, so lets enjoy it why it lasts. ^&grin

 

[ccdc11]

Not for me. The Propaganda during the Australia Burns thread was my last straw. I found and used for the first time the wonderful ignore button.

 

[jazzeum]

Oh come on Brad a little encouragement from the sidelines won't hurt a bit. Lets face it he (or she) isn't going to stop with this dribble for some time yet, so lets enjoy it why it lasts. ^&grin

Toddy, I don’t think it’s fun but I agree he won’t stop.

 

[hotel3alpha]

TODAY...YES ON THIS DAY 100 YEARS AGO...PROHIBITION STARTED IN THE UNITED STATES.

How 'bout them apples! A hundred years later, liquor, booze, wine and beer are blasted on TV, sponsor college sports, sponsor professional teams and are in every grocery store, ice house or corner store in 'Merica!. Some have even become the national drink of...!

John from Texas

PS: Tank the Allies used Stalin, oh and so did Der Fuher. Used him like a two dollar...hopefully you'll figure out the punch line. And uh, I quote myself, not wiki-whatever.