Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2005
- Messages
- 17,202
Sounds like a real stand up guy. Wish I had the chance to meet him, and thank him for his service.
This day in History (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Rob
- Start date
Sounds like a real stand up guy. Wish I had the chance to meet him, and thank him for his service.
Larry Allen
2nd Lieutenant
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2007
- Messages
- 3,876
Evening George,
It is a sad time when we lose friends. A bit harder when we lose family.
My thoughts are with you and MOM / DAD .. they are such great folks so I imagine her cousin was also one of the GOOD guys.
Best,
Larry
It is a sad time when we lose friends. A bit harder when we lose family.
My thoughts are with you and MOM / DAD .. they are such great folks so I imagine her cousin was also one of the GOOD guys.
Best,
Larry
GICOP
Four Star General
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2008
- Messages
- 27,922
Today is the 124th Anniversary of the Last Stand of the Shangani Patrol 1893, Matabeleland, Rhodesia
Here is some info about the action
The Shangani Patrol, comprising 34 soldiers in the service of the British South Africa Company, was ambushed and annihilated by more than 3,000 Matabele warriors during the First Matabele War in 1893. Headed by Major Allan Wilson, the patrol, also referred to as Wilson's Patrol, was attacked just north of the Shangani River in Matabeleland in Rhodesia. Its dramatic last stand, sometimes called Wilson's Last Stand, achieved a prominent place in the British public imagination and, subsequently, in Rhodesian national history, roughly mirroring events such as the Alamo massacre or Custer's Last Stand in the United States.
The subsequent fate of the Wilson patrol, whose bones now rest beneath their memorial on the Matopo hill on which Cecil Rhodes lies buried, was gathered afterwards from Matabele sources. They had selected a clearing among the trees for their last stand and, some standing, some kneeling, poured a hot fire in all directions. The Matabele had the advantage of better cover and took time to aim accurately and make their shots tell. But so calmly and steadily did the patrol fight back that in spite of the bush and the trees they took a heavy toll of the enemy.
At one stage in the fight the Matabele said they had offered the white men their lives provided they laid down their arms and surrendered. Their offer was scornfully rejected. There would be no surrender.
An attempt to break through would mean sacrificing the wounded. That was unthinkable. They would face it together.
The patrol used their dead horses as cover, but their number steadily dwindled. Many were killed outright, and the wounded went on fighting until they lost consciousness. The fight went on until late in the afternoon. Just before the end the few surviving white men staggered to their feet, sang a few bars of "God Save the Queen", shook hands with each other, and waited for the end. It was not long in coming. The Matabele charged them with their assegais, and gave no quarter. One last man escaped for a few precious minutes, gained the top of an anthill a few yards away and shot down several Matabele before a bullet smashed his hip. He was still firing a revolver as the assegais ended his life.
There were no survivors
The men of the patrol came from all corners of the British Empire and beyond, most were born in Britain itself, over a dozen were English Public School and University men, Allan Wilson himself was originally Scottish, while Captain Henry Borrow was born in Cornwall. Also represented in the patrol were South Africa (several members, most prominently Captain William Judd), India (Troopers Dillon and Money), Canada (Scout Robert Bain), and New Zealand (Trooper Frank Vogel).
Mike Norris of Little Legion produced this set of figures for me based on the painting
Cheers
Martyn
Here is some info about the action
The Shangani Patrol, comprising 34 soldiers in the service of the British South Africa Company, was ambushed and annihilated by more than 3,000 Matabele warriors during the First Matabele War in 1893. Headed by Major Allan Wilson, the patrol, also referred to as Wilson's Patrol, was attacked just north of the Shangani River in Matabeleland in Rhodesia. Its dramatic last stand, sometimes called Wilson's Last Stand, achieved a prominent place in the British public imagination and, subsequently, in Rhodesian national history, roughly mirroring events such as the Alamo massacre or Custer's Last Stand in the United States.
The subsequent fate of the Wilson patrol, whose bones now rest beneath their memorial on the Matopo hill on which Cecil Rhodes lies buried, was gathered afterwards from Matabele sources. They had selected a clearing among the trees for their last stand and, some standing, some kneeling, poured a hot fire in all directions. The Matabele had the advantage of better cover and took time to aim accurately and make their shots tell. But so calmly and steadily did the patrol fight back that in spite of the bush and the trees they took a heavy toll of the enemy.
At one stage in the fight the Matabele said they had offered the white men their lives provided they laid down their arms and surrendered. Their offer was scornfully rejected. There would be no surrender.
An attempt to break through would mean sacrificing the wounded. That was unthinkable. They would face it together.
The patrol used their dead horses as cover, but their number steadily dwindled. Many were killed outright, and the wounded went on fighting until they lost consciousness. The fight went on until late in the afternoon. Just before the end the few surviving white men staggered to their feet, sang a few bars of "God Save the Queen", shook hands with each other, and waited for the end. It was not long in coming. The Matabele charged them with their assegais, and gave no quarter. One last man escaped for a few precious minutes, gained the top of an anthill a few yards away and shot down several Matabele before a bullet smashed his hip. He was still firing a revolver as the assegais ended his life.
There were no survivors
The men of the patrol came from all corners of the British Empire and beyond, most were born in Britain itself, over a dozen were English Public School and University men, Allan Wilson himself was originally Scottish, while Captain Henry Borrow was born in Cornwall. Also represented in the patrol were South Africa (several members, most prominently Captain William Judd), India (Troopers Dillon and Money), Canada (Scout Robert Bain), and New Zealand (Trooper Frank Vogel).
Mike Norris of Little Legion produced this set of figures for me based on the painting
Cheers
Martyn
GICOP
Four Star General
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2008
- Messages
- 27,922
DROPPIN WELL DISCO BOMBING
6/12/1982 – The Irish National Liberation Army bombed a pub frequented by British soldiers in Ballykelly, Northern Ireland and murdered eleven soldiers and six civilians.
The first soldier listed on the memorial is my cousin Terry Adam, my Dad was best man at the marriage of his Mum and Dad in the mid 1950's
:salute::
6/12/1982 – The Irish National Liberation Army bombed a pub frequented by British soldiers in Ballykelly, Northern Ireland and murdered eleven soldiers and six civilians.
The first soldier listed on the memorial is my cousin Terry Adam, my Dad was best man at the marriage of his Mum and Dad in the mid 1950's
:salute::
tank
Specialist
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2012
- Messages
- 310
Blocked in Montevideo.
The newspaper Pravda reported, with links to various news agencies, that on December 17, 1939, the German raider - the “pocket battleship” - “Admiral Count Spee” was blocked in the Uruguayan port of Montevideo after a battle with English cruisers at the mouth of the La Plata river.
This stuff
It was also reported here that nine English ships were waiting for the German ship at the mouth of the river, including the battleship Barham, and in addition there was one submarine that had already taken part in the naval battle of three English cruisers with the German raider, but that there were torpedoes in it did not hit, because the German battleship "skillfully maneuvered." Already one thing - this statement for the specialist is an obvious “cranberry”. How can a submarine, along with three cruisers, chase a high-speed battleship, and then in the underwater position, when the boxes are at full speed, shoot torpedoes at anyone? But ... it is written!
Further in the newspaper it is reported that the cruiser “Rinaun”, as well as the aircraft carrier “Ark Royal” will have to arrive in Montevideo, and that both of these ships are “on the way” to Montevideo.
Langsdorf Post
Further in the newspaper was published ... the message of the battleship commander Langsdorf about the details of the battle and the damage inflicted on his ship, as well as the damage that his ship inflicted on the British cruisers. An excerpt from the newspaper New York Daily News that the British cruiser Exeter demonstrated in this battle the high efficiency of its eight-inch guns, but also that it was severely damaged by German battleship fire.
Here is the message about the use of poison gas in naval combat!
The following material, published here, related to the fact that ... "the British are bad," because they use poisonous gases! How? Obviously in shells. And how to check? From the material it is seen that the "doctor checked." And again, only experts could say that there are no such idiots to pump gas into shells of sea guns. You can’t download a lot, especially in an armor-piercing shell, and turning a high-explosive shell into a chemical one is unrealistic, because there will be little sense in the sea from it. And what could sailors suffer from? Yes, simply because the British used shells filled with liddit (trinitrophenol or picric acid), which in the explosion gave thick acrid green smoke, which really had an irritating effect. Nevertheless, this smoke is not a poisonous gas. But it was beneficial for Dr. Walter Meerhof to assert this, and it was equally beneficial for Soviet journalists to reprint this obvious lie. After all, it’s convenient - the reader creates a certain mood and attitude, and we, it turns out, have nothing to do with it — we faithfully reprinted the message of foreign newspapers. Obviously stupid and tendentious? Well, we don’t know about how this is so. What they wrote, then we translated. No comments!
Reporting losses on the Exeter cruiser
Further, we see a message about the sinking of the battleship on the orders of the German command, Meerhof’s new fabrications about poisonous substances, and Germany’s protest that Uruguay did not give the German ship enough time to repair combat damage. Moreover, a funny effemism is used - the "ship that crashed" in relation to the raider warship damaged in a naval battle. But ... the Germans were then our friends and we wrote well about them. The British are enemies and we wrote badly about them. Then all this changed, but only then. Everything is as simple as ever.
But years passed and, based on the materials of British and German authors, who based their writings on declassified documents and memoirs of very specific individuals, Vladimir Kofman writes his book “Pocket battleships of the Fuhrer - corsairs of the Third Reich”, which describes in detail the naval battle at the mouth La Plata.
And also materials related to ... the information component of this battle were published. First of all, it turned out that neither the battleship Barham, nor the submarine was at the mouth of the river. As there was no aircraft carrier “Ark Royal” and the cruiser (and linear!) “Rinaun” that approached Montevideo. That is, it is clear that somewhere they had a place to be, however, they could not get to La Plata and intercept the corsair before he could fix it and leave!
Report on the sinking of the battleship "Admiral Count Spee."
But then specialists from the special operations department came to the rescue of the sailors. Corresponding instructions were sent to the British consul in Montevideo, J. Millington-Drake, who had a very great influence in this country, and even a former friend to the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Uruguay. Mass "leakage" of information began. Either the fishermen saw a “ship with big guns” in the sea, then the whores in the port began to call the Germans - “Love for the last time!”, Then the British quite officially demanded to take “Rinaun” and “Ark Royal” and began to buy food for them, then the radio exchange between the ships blocking the port increased several times, which means that there were immediately more targets at sea, in a word everyone immediately knew that the Germans were “shining a grave”. And it’s not at all surprising that the very next day, one of the raider’s officers on duty, noticing a warship on an impressive horizon, recognized it as a battle cruiser “Rinaun”, while in reality it helped two damaged English lungs the cruisers approached the heavy cruiser "Cumberland". How could it happen that the naval officer confused the three-pipe “Cumberland” with the two-pipe “Rinaun”, now it will not be possible to explain and will have to leave this to the conscience of this observer, but from a psychological point of view, everything is very clear and understandable: what was most afraid of, then he saw ...
Langsdorf, however, considered that after the Rinauna approach he had no chance of success, although in fact the Cumberland had only eight 203 mm guns against his six 283 mm, and the other two cruisers lost their combat readiness. But Langsdorf did not know all this, and during negotiations with the headquarters, Kriegsmarine convinced his superiors that there were only two ways out: either to intern the ship in Argentina, or ... simply to flood. He did not even consider the attempt to break through, and Langsdorf considered her chances to be equal to zero. Well, in the end, it all happened as the newspapers described: the ship was scuttled, the crew interned, but Langsdorf himself then shot himself in a hotel in Buenos Aires.
And it is clear that none of this was known in 1940, and then this event looked completely different than what it looks now, right? Reason: lack of information at that time and its availability now. Now we know everything about the fate of the pocket battleship Admiral CountSpee and his unlucky commander. This story page has been safely closed. But how many pages of it are still written on the basis of incomplete information! And, in fact, their content is not much different from the idle and incompetent speculation of the “OBS agency”.
The newspaper “Pravda" about the pocket battleship“Admiral Count Spee"
The battle of the German battleship "Admiral Count Spee" with the English ships. Fig. contemporary artist
This stuff
It was also reported here that nine English ships were waiting for the German ship at the mouth of the river, including the battleship Barham, and in addition there was one submarine that had already taken part in the naval battle of three English cruisers with the German raider, but that there were torpedoes in it did not hit, because the German battleship "skillfully maneuvered." Already one thing - this statement for the specialist is an obvious “cranberry”. How can a submarine, along with three cruisers, chase a high-speed battleship, and then in the underwater position, when the boxes are at full speed, shoot torpedoes at anyone? But ... it is written!
Further in the newspaper it is reported that the cruiser “Rinaun”, as well as the aircraft carrier “Ark Royal” will have to arrive in Montevideo, and that both of these ships are “on the way” to Montevideo.
Langsdorf Post
Further in the newspaper was published ... the message of the battleship commander Langsdorf about the details of the battle and the damage inflicted on his ship, as well as the damage that his ship inflicted on the British cruisers. An excerpt from the newspaper New York Daily News that the British cruiser Exeter demonstrated in this battle the high efficiency of its eight-inch guns, but also that it was severely damaged by German battleship fire.
Here is the message about the use of poison gas in naval combat!
The following material, published here, related to the fact that ... "the British are bad," because they use poisonous gases! How? Obviously in shells. And how to check? From the material it is seen that the "doctor checked." And again, only experts could say that there are no such idiots to pump gas into shells of sea guns. You can’t download a lot, especially in an armor-piercing shell, and turning a high-explosive shell into a chemical one is unrealistic, because there will be little sense in the sea from it. And what could sailors suffer from? Yes, simply because the British used shells filled with liddit (trinitrophenol or picric acid), which in the explosion gave thick acrid green smoke, which really had an irritating effect. Nevertheless, this smoke is not a poisonous gas. But it was beneficial for Dr. Walter Meerhof to assert this, and it was equally beneficial for Soviet journalists to reprint this obvious lie. After all, it’s convenient - the reader creates a certain mood and attitude, and we, it turns out, have nothing to do with it — we faithfully reprinted the message of foreign newspapers. Obviously stupid and tendentious? Well, we don’t know about how this is so. What they wrote, then we translated. No comments!
Reporting losses on the Exeter cruiser
Further, we see a message about the sinking of the battleship on the orders of the German command, Meerhof’s new fabrications about poisonous substances, and Germany’s protest that Uruguay did not give the German ship enough time to repair combat damage. Moreover, a funny effemism is used - the "ship that crashed" in relation to the raider warship damaged in a naval battle. But ... the Germans were then our friends and we wrote well about them. The British are enemies and we wrote badly about them. Then all this changed, but only then. Everything is as simple as ever.
But years passed and, based on the materials of British and German authors, who based their writings on declassified documents and memoirs of very specific individuals, Vladimir Kofman writes his book “Pocket battleships of the Fuhrer - corsairs of the Third Reich”, which describes in detail the naval battle at the mouth La Plata.
And also materials related to ... the information component of this battle were published. First of all, it turned out that neither the battleship Barham, nor the submarine was at the mouth of the river. As there was no aircraft carrier “Ark Royal” and the cruiser (and linear!) “Rinaun” that approached Montevideo. That is, it is clear that somewhere they had a place to be, however, they could not get to La Plata and intercept the corsair before he could fix it and leave!
Report on the sinking of the battleship "Admiral Count Spee."
But then specialists from the special operations department came to the rescue of the sailors. Corresponding instructions were sent to the British consul in Montevideo, J. Millington-Drake, who had a very great influence in this country, and even a former friend to the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Uruguay. Mass "leakage" of information began. Either the fishermen saw a “ship with big guns” in the sea, then the whores in the port began to call the Germans - “Love for the last time!”, Then the British quite officially demanded to take “Rinaun” and “Ark Royal” and began to buy food for them, then the radio exchange between the ships blocking the port increased several times, which means that there were immediately more targets at sea, in a word everyone immediately knew that the Germans were “shining a grave”. And it’s not at all surprising that the very next day, one of the raider’s officers on duty, noticing a warship on an impressive horizon, recognized it as a battle cruiser “Rinaun”, while in reality it helped two damaged English lungs the cruisers approached the heavy cruiser "Cumberland". How could it happen that the naval officer confused the three-pipe “Cumberland” with the two-pipe “Rinaun”, now it will not be possible to explain and will have to leave this to the conscience of this observer, but from a psychological point of view, everything is very clear and understandable: what was most afraid of, then he saw ...
Langsdorf, however, considered that after the Rinauna approach he had no chance of success, although in fact the Cumberland had only eight 203 mm guns against his six 283 mm, and the other two cruisers lost their combat readiness. But Langsdorf did not know all this, and during negotiations with the headquarters, Kriegsmarine convinced his superiors that there were only two ways out: either to intern the ship in Argentina, or ... simply to flood. He did not even consider the attempt to break through, and Langsdorf considered her chances to be equal to zero. Well, in the end, it all happened as the newspapers described: the ship was scuttled, the crew interned, but Langsdorf himself then shot himself in a hotel in Buenos Aires.
And it is clear that none of this was known in 1940, and then this event looked completely different than what it looks now, right? Reason: lack of information at that time and its availability now. Now we know everything about the fate of the pocket battleship Admiral CountSpee and his unlucky commander. This story page has been safely closed. But how many pages of it are still written on the basis of incomplete information! And, in fact, their content is not much different from the idle and incompetent speculation of the “OBS agency”.
waynepoo
Colonel
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2012
- Messages
- 9,709
[h=2]Born This Day In History 18th December[/h] Celebrating Birthday's Today
Joseph Stalin
Born: 18th December 1878 Gori, Tiflis Governorate, Russian Empire
Died: 5th March 1953 Moscow, Soviet Union
Known For :
Joseph Stalin born ( Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili ) was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee from 1922 until his death in 1953. He was a member of the Bolshevik party together with Vladimir Lenin, before the Russian Revolution of 1917. Following the success of the Russian revolution he rose to power and held that power for more than 30 years using fear and murder to keep control and remove any possible enemies, he is remembered for "the great purge" by the state's secret police and intelligence agencies under his control in the 30's a campaign to purge the Communist Party of people accused of sabotage, terrorism, or treachery including the military where the accused were executed or imprisoned in Gulag labor camps or exiled, estimates of the number murdered under this purge range from 3 - 20 million depending on the source but provide an indication of how brutal his regime was. He was the Russian leader during World War II and it was under his leadership following World War II that Berlin was split and the soviet Union encompassed Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and held a tight control over other communist block countries including Poland.
Joseph Stalin
Born: 18th December 1878 Gori, Tiflis Governorate, Russian Empire
Died: 5th March 1953 Moscow, Soviet Union
Known For :
Joseph Stalin born ( Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili ) was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee from 1922 until his death in 1953. He was a member of the Bolshevik party together with Vladimir Lenin, before the Russian Revolution of 1917. Following the success of the Russian revolution he rose to power and held that power for more than 30 years using fear and murder to keep control and remove any possible enemies, he is remembered for "the great purge" by the state's secret police and intelligence agencies under his control in the 30's a campaign to purge the Communist Party of people accused of sabotage, terrorism, or treachery including the military where the accused were executed or imprisoned in Gulag labor camps or exiled, estimates of the number murdered under this purge range from 3 - 20 million depending on the source but provide an indication of how brutal his regime was. He was the Russian leader during World War II and it was under his leadership following World War II that Berlin was split and the soviet Union encompassed Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and held a tight control over other communist block countries including Poland.
tank
Specialist
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2012
- Messages
- 310
Born This Day In History 18th December
Celebrating Birthday's Today
Joseph Stalin
Known For :
Under Joseph Stalin control in the 30’s a campaign to purge the Communist Party of people accused of sabotage, terrorism, or treachery including the military where the accused were executed or imprisoned in Gulag labor camps or exiled, estimates of the number murdered under this purge range from 3 - 20 million depending on the source...
The Myth.
Stalin was the greatest tyrant of all time. Stalin destroyed his people on an inconceivable scale - from 10 to 110 million people. They were thrown into camps, where they were shot or died under inhuman conditions.
Examples of the myth use.
According to professor Kurganov calculations the USSR have lost - 110 million people! in total from 1917 to 1953 “
The Reality.
Almost all publications dealing with the issue of the number of repressed can be attributed to two groups. The first of them includes the works of the accusers of the “totalitarian regime”, calling the astronomical multimillion-dollar figures of the executed and planted. At the same time, “truth seekers” are stubbornly trying not to notice archived data, including published data, pretending that they do not exist. To justify their numbers, they either refer to each other, or simply limit themselves to phrases such as: "according to my calculations," "I am convinced," etc.
However, any conscientious researcher who studies this problem quickly discovers that in addition to “eyewitness recollections” there are many documentary sources: “Several thousand have been identified in the funds of the Central State Archive of the October Revolution, the highest organs of state power and state administration of the USSR (TsAGAOR USSR) units of storage of documents related to the activities of the Gulag ”
Having studied archival documents, such a researcher is surprised to be convinced that the scale of the repression that we “know” about through the media, not only diverges from reality, but is overstated tenfold. After that, he faces a painful dilemma: professional ethics requires the publication of the data found, on the other hand, as if not to be branded as the defender of Stalin. The result usually is a kind of “compromise” publication, containing both a standard set of anti-Stalinist epithets and reverence addressed to Solzhenitsyn and Co., as well as information about the number of repressed people, who, unlike publications from the first group, are not taken from the ceiling and are not sucked from the finger, and confirmed by documents from archives.
How many are repressed in reality.
The most famous of the published documents containing summary information on repressions is the following memorandum addressed to N.S. Khrushchev:
So, as it appears from the cited document, from 1921 to the beginning of 1954, 642,980 people were sentenced to death for political charges, 2,369,220 to imprisonment, and 765,180 to imprisonment. It should also be borne in mind that not all sentences were carried out. For example, from July 15, 1939 to April 20, 1940, 201 prisoners were sentenced to death punishment for disorganization of camp life and production, but later part of them was commuted to 10 to 15 years in prison.
In 1934 there were 3849 prisoners in the camps were sentenced to death and than replaced replaced by imprisonment for periods of 10 to 15 years.
The prisoners sentenced to death and than replaced replaced by imprisonment for periods of 10 to 15 years.
in 1935 - 5671 prisoners, in 1936 - 7303 prisoners, in 1937 - 6239 prisoners, in 1938 - 5926 prisoners , in 1939 - 3425 prisoners,
in 1940 - 4037 prisoners.
Number of prisoners
“Are you sure that the information from this memorandum is true?” Exclaims a skeptical reader who, thanks to years of brainwashing, is firmly “aware” of the millions of executed and tens of millions sent to camps. Well, let us turn to more detailed statistics, especially since, contrary to the assurances of the written “fighters against totalitarianism,” such data is not only available in the archives, but has also been repeatedly published.
Let's start with the data on the number of prisoners in the Gulag camps. Let me remind you that prisoners sentenced to more than 3 years, as a rule, served their sentences in forced labor camps (ITL), and prisoners sentenced to short sentences were sentenced to forced labor colonies (TECs).
The number of prisoners in the NKVD camps as on the 1th of January ...
Year of Prisoners
1930 - 179.000
1931 - 212.000
1932 - 268.700
1933 - 334.300
1934 - 510.307
1935 - 725.483
1936 - 839.406
1937 - 820.881
1938 - 996.367
1939 - 1.317.195
1940 - 1.344.408
1941 - 1.500.524
1942 - 1.415.596
1943 - 983.974
1944 - 663.594
1945 - 715.505
1946 - 746.871
1947 - 808.839
1948 - 1.108.057
1949 - 1.216.361
1950 - 1.416.300
1951 - 1.533.767
1952 - 1.711.202
1953 - 1.727.970
GULAG (General Directorate of Camps). 1918–1960
https://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1009140
However, those who are used to accepting the opus of the Solzhenitsyn and others like him fas the Holy Bibel are often not convinced even by direct links to archival documents. "These are the documents of the NKVD, and therefore they are falsified. they declare. “Where did those numbers come from?”
Are you one of them?
Last edited:
Panzer ace
Lieutenant Colonel
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2007
- Messages
- 7,881
Charlie Brown (B-17 Flying Fortress, Ye Olde Pub) and Franz Stigler Incident:
The Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident occurred on 20 December 1943, when, after a successful bomb run on Bremen, 2nd Lt Charles "Charlie" Brown's B-17 Flying Fortress (named "Ye Olde Pub") was severely damaged by German fighters. Luftwaffe pilot Franz Stigler had the opportunity to shoot down the crippled bomber but did not do so. After an extensive search by Brown, the two pilots met each other 50 years later and developed a friendship that lasted until Stigler's death in March 2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident
The Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident occurred on 20 December 1943, when, after a successful bomb run on Bremen, 2nd Lt Charles "Charlie" Brown's B-17 Flying Fortress (named "Ye Olde Pub") was severely damaged by German fighters. Luftwaffe pilot Franz Stigler had the opportunity to shoot down the crippled bomber but did not do so. After an extensive search by Brown, the two pilots met each other 50 years later and developed a friendship that lasted until Stigler's death in March 2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident
tank
Specialist
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2012
- Messages
- 310
What a great story! :salute::
It is extraordinary coincidence that there were pilots like that.
Unfortunatelly the reality was a very different:
Several German sources (examples below) claim that American pilots frequently practised shooting at parachutes, especially closer to the end of the war when Germany had more planes than pilots:
Gefr. Hans Thran bailed out successfully but, according to ground witnesses, was shot in his parachute by a P-47 pilot while only sixty feet above the ground. German pilots had a fear of being killed while hanging helpless in their parachutes, and every such report was investigated and carefully documented. These incidents were especially common during the summer and autumn of 1944.
Hofmann gave this advice to his pilots: If you ever have to bail out, remember that the Americans are known to shoot us in our parachutes. Therefore, free-fall to about 200 meters; only that way can you be sure of survival. I have seen one of my best friends torn to bits by enemy cannon fire while still hanging in his chute.[SUP][14]
[/SUP]
Shooting jet pilots in their parachutes was justified by some as a necessary evil. It was believed that these pilots were a special elite and that training them to fly such aircraft was a protracted and expensive effort. This logic held that killing such men whenever possible could help shorten the war. For their part, many German pilots were so concerned about being attacked in their parachutes that they waited until they were at low altitude before pulling their ripcords.[SUP][15]
[/SUP]
[/SUP]
On 4 April, Sinner led seven other Me 262s off from Rechlin. Emerging from the clouds shortly after take-off, the flight was bounced by P-51 fighters of the 339th Fighter Group, USAAF. In the ensuing combat "Rudi" Sinner's aircraft was hit. With his face and hands badly burned, he bailed out at low level. His parachute deployed at the last moment, but did not completely fill, and he was hanging by just the left strap when he hit the ground heavily in a ploughed field and dragged into a barbed wire fence. He reported that the P-51s then strafed him, but he feigned death and, as the P-51s departed, made his way to the safety of a deep furrow.[SUP][16]
[/SUP]
[/SUP]
With a little course correction, he is in my crosshairs and I fire: the Mustang shows a white trail and makes a turn downwards. But at the same time, the pilot in the other Mustang has me in his crosshairs and fires. I notice that my bird has become uncontrollable, jettison the canopy, unbuckle and get out. To my horror. I notice that we are really, very low – will my chute open in time? I immediately pull my ripcord – the chute opens – I am just over some woods, see a Mustang flying towards me, it shoots at me.
I have arrived in the tops of some trees and finally hang suspended between the branches. I turn the buckle on my harness, leave my chute in the trees and climb down using some branches. Already the first people arrive at the scene. They have seen the dogfight and have also seen that the Mustang fired at me in my chute.[SUP][17]
[/SUP]
Thaen Kwock Lee was a B-17 waist gunner with the 483rd Bomb Group, a 15th Air Force unit, when his aircraft was shot down by German Me 262s on March 22, 1945. He recalled that he and his crew bailed out in their parachutes and while descending back to earth, they were attacked by German Me 262s:I have arrived in the tops of some trees and finally hang suspended between the branches. I turn the buckle on my harness, leave my chute in the trees and climb down using some branches. Already the first people arrive at the scene. They have seen the dogfight and have also seen that the Mustang fired at me in my chute.[SUP][17]
[/SUP]
Three fighters came after me. The first one missed and the second also missed. When the third one came by I was too low for him to shoot at me. When I hit the ground a burst of machine gun was fired at me. I hit the dirt fast. Then German soldiers came and drove me on a motorcycle to a building. On the way we passed a row of dead American airmen, about twelve of them covered with blood soaked parachutes. I knew they were shot dead on the way down.[SUP][18]
[/SUP]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists
Desertkiwi
1st Lieutenant
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Tank mate I think you need to write a book...….
waynepoo
Colonel
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Indeed, titled 'Life as a Pravda megaphone'.
hotel3alpha
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Tank,
I'm interested at your bullet points on Soso. Simone Montefiore's book(s) Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar and Young Stalin are two great books on Loseb Jughashvili. To counter your figures on how many Russians died under his rule, I personally think what ever the number is...double it.
I have not read Solzhenitsyn 10,000 page prison memoir, but have plans to when I can schedule the time. I have however studied intensively his commencement speech at Harvard in 1978 entitled "A world apart" his words (I believe) still rings true to this day.
I do have a piece of advise for you though regarding "tits for tats" on how military forces treated each other during past wars. In this board that discussion is a black hole, because if you want to argue that American pilots killed ejected German pilots unmercifully and vis versa there will be one of our esteemed members who will bring up ANOTHER war crime committed by both sides. It just goes on and on and we have found that no country is this world is not with out sin. Except maybe Bhutan...the happiest country on earth.
I would love to hear more of your Russian expertise on the Stalin who stood 5'5 (give or take an inch) with a gimp arm, webbed feet and who was run over by a horse wagon when he was a kid.
John from Texas
I'm interested at your bullet points on Soso. Simone Montefiore's book(s) Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar and Young Stalin are two great books on Loseb Jughashvili. To counter your figures on how many Russians died under his rule, I personally think what ever the number is...double it.
I have not read Solzhenitsyn 10,000 page prison memoir, but have plans to when I can schedule the time. I have however studied intensively his commencement speech at Harvard in 1978 entitled "A world apart" his words (I believe) still rings true to this day.
I do have a piece of advise for you though regarding "tits for tats" on how military forces treated each other during past wars. In this board that discussion is a black hole, because if you want to argue that American pilots killed ejected German pilots unmercifully and vis versa there will be one of our esteemed members who will bring up ANOTHER war crime committed by both sides. It just goes on and on and we have found that no country is this world is not with out sin. Except maybe Bhutan...the happiest country on earth.
I would love to hear more of your Russian expertise on the Stalin who stood 5'5 (give or take an inch) with a gimp arm, webbed feet and who was run over by a horse wagon when he was a kid.
John from Texas
Panzer ace
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John:
To further prove your point about this forum, Bhutan is not perfect either:
"When Ngawang Namgyal died in 1651, his passing was kept secret for 54 years. After a period of consolidation, Bhutan lapsed into internal conflict. In 1711 Bhutan went to war against the Raja of the kingdom of Koch Bihar in the south."
-Jason
hotel3alpha
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Jason, see...SEE and thats why I said "maybe" and you prove me point vicariously to Mr. Tank. I swear this forum has some of the smartest people I know.
Best!
John from Texas
hotel3alpha
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Jason,
Just a thought...North Sentinel Island is with out sin...yes? I mean everyone who tries to visit gets killed because they refuse visitors on their island. The last dude who went was a missionary who wanted to introduce Jesus and got a spear. But our definition of sin is based on the scriptures. They don't know the scriptures so probably don't define protecting their home as sin.
Maybe the North Sentinelese People are the happy people on Earth.
No TV, internet, doughnuts, Coke, beer, fajitas...I could go on forever.
John from Texas
Just a thought...North Sentinel Island is with out sin...yes? I mean everyone who tries to visit gets killed because they refuse visitors on their island. The last dude who went was a missionary who wanted to introduce Jesus and got a spear. But our definition of sin is based on the scriptures. They don't know the scriptures so probably don't define protecting their home as sin.
Maybe the North Sentinelese People are the happy people on Earth.
No TV, internet, doughnuts, Coke, beer, fajitas...I could go on forever.
John from Texas
tank
Specialist
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Hi John.
Looks like you have some knowledge about this subject.
Would be glad to discuss it with you.
I would like to know if you or anyone of your friends have any evidence that Russian pilots did shoot on the bailed out air-crew.
So far I found some information about German, American, Polish, Japanese and British pilots.
Couldn’t find anything about Russian pilots so would really appreciate your help.
Kind Regards.
Serge.
Greg Bald, Facilities Manager (2015-present)
Answered Dec 29, 2017
It was rare but not unknown on the Western Front for pilots to shoot downed enemies, especially if hanging from a parachute.
Two stories that spring to mind of a British pilot shooting his vanquished foe both involve Robert Stanford Tuck.
In late May, early June 1940, during the evacuation from Dunkirk, TuckÂ’s Squadron, 92 East India, got involved in several engagements with the Luftwaffe during which Tuck gained his first victories of the war.
Following one of these combats, Tuck dropped down to treetop height and circled his vanquished foe, who had climbed out of his Me.109.
Tuck waved, and thought that the German was waving back until bullets started hitting his Spitfire from the Mauser pistol in the Germans hand. This enraged Tuck, as he felt it was breaking the unwritten agreement of chivalry that you allowed survivors of downed aeroplanes to live to fight another day. He took the decision to strafe the German for his actions, and killed him.
On another occasion, over the English channel in late 1941, Tuck and his unit shot down a German bomber, and the only survivor was floating helplessly in the freezing water, with no hope of survival. Tuck sent his pilots back to base, and when they were out of visual range, put the slowly dying German out of his misery in an act of mercy.
Simone Sullivan
Answered Dec 27, 2017
I believe it happened often enough in the Battle of Britain that Winston Churchill expressed his disapproval of the practice.
It is essentially the killing of an unarmed and helpless opponent. It's against the rules of war.
I'm sure Luftwaffe pilots did it too, but I think they got disciplined for it.
And to be honest the only reason to do it was outright revenge. A downed pilot in enemy territory holds no true threat to that country.
roadkillsy
]1 year ago
Yeah I had feeling this was it. In the Pacific American naval aviators has no problems gunning down Japanese soldiers after their transport ships have been sunk (example at the battle of Bismarck sea). I’m sure aviators from both sides were merciless in the Pacific front.
Some posters have given evidence and reasonable explanations for the presence of some sort of code in the fighting at the Western Front. So it’s wasn’t unheard of I feel. But I doubt how much of a code there was in other more brutal fronts like in the life and death struggle occurring in the Soviet Union.
- tigertalon
Senior MemberJoin DateMar 2003Posts1,986
Well, I would't put it like there is some certain probability, but rather like IRL:
In WW2 it was not so uncomon if enemy strafed parachutes, which were the crew bailing out over their teritory, as they might become the threat again. In Battle of Britain for instance, german fighters often attacked Brits, hanging under parachute, over GB territory. Contrary, Brits were ordered to attack german Do24 flying boats, that were picking up shot down German pilots, waiting in their rafts in the Channel. At the beginning of the battle, Germans had their rescue planes colored white with red crosses, but soon Brits started to assume, that Germans are using those aircraft also for recconaisance planes to track Allied convoys, so order to shoot those planes down were given.
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Luftwaffefighter aceAdolf Galland strongly rejected the idea of shooting enemy airmen in their parachutes, even if over their own territory, as he felt it was equal to murder.
Rutledge
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Anthony Beevers account in the Fall of Berlin recounts how the Russian military raped its way through Germany. Not pretty. It’s the reason Germans much preferred to surrender to the Americans, who treated them much better than the vicious, criminal, savage, barbaric and unhinged Russians.
tank
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Can you please provide me with the sourses and the facts your believes are based on.
Thanks.
Stalin, Koba or Soso.
Please note:
The facts I provided about Stalin in my post were from archives of the Alexander N. Yakovlev Foundation.
https://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1009140
International Fund "Democracy" (Alexander N. Yakovlev Foundation)
The Democracy International Foundation (DIF) was established in 1993. Alexander Nikolayevich Yakovlev, full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences. He became the President of the IJF, and since 1991 headed the Commission under the President of the Russian Federation for the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression. As conceived by A.N. Yakovleva, the Fund should facilitate the identification and publication of previously unknown and unpublished documents on the history of Russia of the XX century, as well as the conduct of scientific research based on a new documentary base.
Alexander Nikolaevich was convinced that building democracy in Russia was impossible without knowledge of the history of our country in the 20th century, and the transition from a totalitarian to a free society would not be possible without deep repentance.
DIF proposed a work program in several areas, the main of which was the identification of documents related to the crimes of I.V. Stalin, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the Cheka, the OGPU, the NKVD, the KGB and other punitive bodies against their own people.
Their terrible, destructive role in the history of Russia and the countries of the former socialist camp. The principles of the Fund, which from the very beginning was actively conducted by A.N. Yakovlev, became impartiality, the desire to understand what really happened in the country during the years of the Stalinist regime.
In its activities, the Foundation relies on the scientific community, attracts historian archivists, employees of the central archives, and insists on the exact observance of facts. Not all of the plans have been implemented so far, however, the President of the IJF, the Foundation’s employees, and scientists collaborating with the Foundation are doing everything in their power to create a new documentary base, based on which historians will write the real history of the country.
For the first 10 years, the Fund did not rely on state assistance, although initially it relied on it. In fact, the state entrusted the most difficult issues of financing the Fund’s work to A.N. Yakovleva. The President of the Fund managed to raise funds for the publication of many previously unpublished documents and materials.
Enormous disinterested support to the Fund was provided by foreign universities, international charitable organizations - both in the West and in the East. In the past few years, the Fund B.N. Yeltsin and the Presidential Center B.N. Yeltsin.
The reader is well aware of the series “Russia. XX century. Documents ”, published by the International Fund“ Democracy ”since 1997. Over 70 volumes have already been published as part of this series, and work on it continues - after the tragic, sudden death of A.N. Yakovleva, October 18, 2005.
Today the International Fund "Democracy" is headed by N.A. Ushatskaya.
https://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond
hotel3alpha
Command Sergeant Major
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Tank,
You-"Can you please provide me with the sourses and the facts your believes are based on."
Me-"Nyet"
I do have a little knowledge on the subject on the academic level, but do not claim to be an expert, nor do I want to be. Unlike the Nazis, the Russians were not good bookkeepers and if you think for one minute that the death toll in Russia under Stalin was reported correctly, then my friend you live in historical bliss. But hey, my opinions are my own and like assholes everyones got one.
John from Texas
PS: Hey Rut, you nailed it.
You-"Can you please provide me with the sourses and the facts your believes are based on."
Me-"Nyet"
I do have a little knowledge on the subject on the academic level, but do not claim to be an expert, nor do I want to be. Unlike the Nazis, the Russians were not good bookkeepers and if you think for one minute that the death toll in Russia under Stalin was reported correctly, then my friend you live in historical bliss. But hey, my opinions are my own and like assholes everyones got one.
John from Texas
PS: Hey Rut, you nailed it.