Tiger I late version (3 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

Doug,

I'm afraid you could be right but we'll see.

That site you posted was very helpful and I was looking at it last night but I was wondering if you tank experts also had other sites. The problem I imagine some might be having is that Ana is giving us too many choices. For instance, how does one know how to choose the right number for the tank, etc. that was actually used, so forth and so on. Sometimes it's easier the old Henry Ford way: you can have any color you want as long as it's black!

 

[Gustavflyer]

Even some of the so called affluent warbird, 88 gang (wish I had one of those old 88s -- WS 20 or WS 24) have limits, as evidenced by some of the comments on this Forum. Moreover, how many Tigers do you really need. Counting the Figarti one, I have five, including the new K & C. Do I need six? I know they sell but I might be more on the fence if something other than a Tiger was made.

Now, as far as the price goes, I don't understand the debate; if you want to buy it, buy it, if not don't but don't lament it costs what it does. There are many things I can't afford but I don't complain about those who do.

Well said, I was shocked at first at the cost but since reading some of these posts, this one says it all. Time will tell if this was a right move for HB and we will see if the Tiger is a big hit. We all want one but our priorities may dictate otherwise. IF they do a Panzer IV with skirts I may have to take the plunge but the Tiger has been so overdone so it isnt hard getting one of these tanks from somewhere. That is my final answer

 

[Louis Badolato]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

My mistake at $1200 that equals 3.4285 HB Tigers. Just a little joke since a few posters were complaining about the cost.

Actually, the cost of the HB Tiger, with crew, extra details like Jerry Cans, etc., and shipping, is going to exceed $500 ($350 is the base model, no crew, no extra customization, no shipping) so its two HB Tigers for one K&C B25 or Figarti B17.

 

[nmrocks]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Actually, the cost of the HB Tiger, with crew, extra details like Jerry Cans, etc., and shipping, is going to exceed $500 ($350 is the base model, no crew, no extra customization, no shipping) so its two HB Tigers for one K&C B25 or Figarti B17.

Wow! over $500.00 now?!?! I don't know how HB expects to sell many of those babies, $350.00 is one thing, but $500.00 is really steep!
Ray

 

[Louis Badolato]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Wow! over $500.00 now?!?! I don't know how HB expects to sell many of those babies, $350.00 is one thing, but $500.00 is really steep!
Ray

This is what I was told by an HB dealer earlier today. I suggest we confirm it with Anna, but I have no reason to doubt the source.

 

[jazzeum]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

$500 is not out of the realm of possibility and that may be conservative. Shipping will cost you $50 or so, now we're up to $400. Conservatively, let's say $50 for the crew, that's $450, add on customization (no idea) but let's say $50, that's $500. The base is around $60 or so, you could be taking close to $600.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

I sent an e-mail to Fanny to reserve one for me (and to have her bill my wife)

I got my confirmation from Fanny!! Now my poor wife just has to pay for it!

 

[Combat]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

$500 is not out of the realm of possibility and that may be conservative. Shipping will cost you $50 or so, now we're up to $400. Conservatively, let's say $50 for the crew, that's $450, add on customization (no idea) but let's say $50, that's $500. The base is around $60 or so, you could be taking close to $600.

Don't forget the taxes and the possibility of receiving tarantulas from South America. Of course there are no shipping charges on KC warbirds. And you guys wonder where the KC bias perception comes from.

 

[nmrocks]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

$500 is not out of the realm of possibility and that may be conservative. Shipping will cost you $50 or so, now we're up to $400. Conservatively, let's say $50 for the crew, that's $450, add on customization (no idea) but let's say $50, that's $500. The base is around $60 or so, you could be taking close to $600.

This is closer to "A Kings Ransom".

 

[jazzeum]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Don't forget the taxes and the possibility of receiving tarantulas from South America. Of course there are no shipping charges on KC warbirds. And you guys wonder where the KC bias perception comes from.

This is fact, not fiction. Where is the K & C bias here? I'm not saying the HB Tigers are not great and may be the best tank you'll ever buy. I'm just saying, like the Warbirds, it's not cheap. There's no hiding this. When you count in shipping, that's $400 off the bat. You don't think crew and customization is not going to cost you an easy $100. That's $500 right there. Sure, if you want the basic model, with no crew, that's $400, not $500.

P.S. Shipping on Warbirds is $90.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Reference HB, I also think they are wonderful scale replicas - but I think a lot of people were gullible enough to think they weren't going to be paying much more than those that HB had sold in the past - at least that's what all the commotion looks like to me. At the time these new plans were anounced by HB I estimated US$500/tank. Don't want to say I told you so guys.
But, I told you so......!!!!
Cheers
H

 

[Combat]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

This is fact, not fiction. Where is the K & C bias here? I'm not saying the HB Tigers are not great and may be the best tank you'll ever buy. I'm just saying, like the Warbirds, it's not cheap. There's no hiding this. When you count in shipping, that's $400 off the bat. You don't think crew and customization is not going to cost you an easy $100. That's $500 right there. Sure, if you want the basic model, with no crew, that's $400, not $500.

P.S. Shipping on Warbirds is $90.

Brad-
The price of the HB Tiger is $350 - not $400 or $600. You could add a base or other accessories, but you could also do that with a KC tank and up the "cost." Is there some reason to believe shipping cost is different for HB products? No. I have never seen that factored into any KC prices mentioned here. So why do we now see estimates like $50 to ship? KC charges $100+ for a tank crew. So why the distress if HB charges $50? Again, some collectors might choose to pay extra for the HB tank crew, use none, or maybe use a KC crew.

The math on the warbird comparison. A couple of folks claim that you can only get two HB Tigers for the price of one $1200 warbird. That is wrong. A fact. How to fix that problem to make the comparison more favorable? Add in shipping for HB (but not KC), assume purchase of the HB tank crew, other accessories, base, imply weathering and other customization costs, then speculate on all the above and walla you have the cost up to $600. Do you need a hanger, runway, ground crew etc for the warbird? Maybe for some - then add on another $300 and say the KC warbird costs $1500. That would be equally misleading. For the benefit of anyone who cares here is Ana's recent post on the subject:

It's not the customization that raised our price. Most of you know that we have been customizing your tanks without added charges before. This time we decided to let ALL know that that can be done. This is a service that we decided to offer to our collectors who have appreciated it much in the past.

The Tiger (and all of the tanks released at the new standards) is a model of a higher level than our previous line. I know that you liked the Shermans, the Panthers and Jagdpanthers. But the Tiger is BETTER, and as that it must cost more. It's worth it. It took much more work to sculpt it, and it takes much more time to make each one with the detail that we decided to offer. I'm sorry for those who can't understand that.

Most of you know that we have painted your tanks as your preferences, changed colour patterns, accessories, crews and numbers. We never charged for that. That is FREE and it's a service that we happily give to our customers.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Coming late to this discussion I am reminded of an article in Toy Soldier and Model Figure Magazine from earlier this year (Feb. 2007) reviewing Figarti's Tiger which had recently come on the market. It said the following and I quote:

"numerous toy soldier companies have produced 1:32 or slightly larger 1:30-scale Tiger tanks in metal, plastic and polystone. It's abundantly clear that collectors can't seem to get enough of these imposing symbols of Nazi Germany's military might. Tiger I tanks and later-war King Tigers certainly do sell! However, this legendary subject matter has been so thoroughly covered that it almost seems like a tired cliche despite its historic significance. I dare say that a Tiger can actually seem a bit trite".

I wonder what this reviewer (Stuart A. Hessney) will say when he has to review K&C's and Honor Bound's latest Tigers?

I think this article indirectly strikes at a few good points:

1) Given how many tigers have come out before, if you don't like HB's version, it's not like you're stuck with it. There are enough tigers by different companies already available to suit most budgets and tastes (except see caveat 3 below).

2) If you're looking for a deluxe tiger of higher detail than the K&C one but don't want to spring for the $350+ HB model, the 1:32 Figarti tiger is indeed a nice alternative priced mid-way between at $300. The Figarti Tiger comes with a crew and more importantly, can be opened up to reveal all its inner details, a unique feature no tiger before or since will probably have again. Like Louis I think the exterior details on the Figarti tiger also stand up well to HB's version pictured here - it also has zimmerit and uses brass deatails on areas like the engine grills. Finally, while very delicate, the hatches and engine covers on the Figarti model all work so you can display your tank with the hatches open one day and closed the next. Perfect for those who can't make up their mind.

3) Despite what the magazine above says, there were niches in the tiger market that remained unfilled until now. Specifically, HB's tigers will be the only true confirmed 1:30 scale version on the market aside from K&C's new Afrika version (don't know if NMA's version was true 1:30). If you want a 1:30 tiger in the theatres where it saw the heaviest and most famous action (Northwest Europe, Italy or Russia), then your only choice for now is probably the HB model.

A few more thoughts:

HB has said that world economic conditions have taken them to this higher price point and there's really no option to go back to the cheaper models. In the coming year or two I would also brace for higher prices from the other remaining manufacturers in this hobby. The world is changing rapidly and our little hobby does not exist in a wonderland isolated from rising commodity costs. This was never a cheap hobby to begin with - if someone is prepared to pay the hefty amount of $200(!!) for a K&C tiger, what's a couple hundred more, really?

Personally, I won't be getting one of these because I am looking for an earlier model winter Tiger I in 1:30 that can work for Kharkov 1943. Hopefully HB will get to one of those eventually. If they did make one, I would stomach the price because it's still cheaper than K&C's winter tiger on the aftermarket (and despite its excellent figures, that one's not even true 1:30 scale!).

When the time comes for me to buy one of HB's new tanks I will relish the opportunity to customize it to my specifications. It's probably a good thing HB is forcing collectors to pick up a history book or two and become better informed about the details behind their purchase. Customers will probably appreciate their custom tank all the more. Take it from me - researching the history opens up a whole new side to collecting historical miniatures! The tiger I is probably one of the most thoroughly covered tanks of WW2 with a host of books available from different sources (Osprey publishing, Schiffer, JJF pub, Trojca to name but a few). If that's too much work, you can always just have HB copy a tiger you see on the internet, for example one of Dragon Model's various paint/number schemes which are well researched: http://www.dragonmodelsusa.com/dmlusa/prodsearch.asp?txtSearch=tiger+i Or, just make up a number like K&C does.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Brad-
The price of the HB Tiger is $350 - not $400 or $600. You could add a base or other accessories, but you could also do that with a KC tank and up the "cost." Is there some reason to believe shipping cost is different for HB products? No. I have never seen that factored into any KC prices mentioned here. So why do we now see estimates like $50 to ship? KC charges $100+ for a tank crew. So why the distress if HB charges $50? Again, some collectors might choose to pay extra for the HB tank crew, use none, or maybe use a KC crew.

The math on the warbird comparison. A couple of folks claim that you can only get two HB Tigers for the price of one $1200 warbird. That is wrong. A fact. How to fix that problem to make the comparison more favorable? Add in shipping for HB (but not KC), assume purchase of the HB tank crew, other accessories, base, imply weathering and other customization costs, then speculate on all the above and walla you have the cost up to $600. Do you need a hanger, runway, ground crew etc for the warbird? Maybe for some - then add on another $300 and say the KC warbird costs $1500. That would be equally misleading. For the benefit of anyone who cares here is Ana's recent post on the subject:

It's not the customization that raised our price. Most of you know that we have been customizing your tanks without added charges before. This time we decided to let ALL know that that can be done. This is a service that we decided to offer to our collectors who have appreciated it much in the past.

The Tiger (and all of the tanks released at the new standards) is a model of a higher level than our previous line. I know that you liked the Shermans, the Panthers and Jagdpanthers. But the Tiger is BETTER, and as that it must cost more. It's worth it. It took much more work to sculpt it, and it takes much more time to make each one with the detail that we decided to offer. I'm sorry for those who can't understand that.

Most of you know that we have painted your tanks as your preferences, changed colour patterns, accessories, crews and numbers. We never charged for that. That is FREE and it's a service that we happily give to our customers.

Combat,

If I go to a car dealership, and they tell me its $10,000 for the car, but if I want a DVD player, automatic transmission, power windows, and a sun roof its $15,000, does the car cost $10,000 or $15,000?

I am used to paying for a tank with a crew and other details already in the box. I was told by an HB dealer that these items would be extra on the HB Tiger. As I said in my earlier post, we should confirm this information with Anna before we rely on it. If it isn't true, and the tanks cost $350 with crew, customization, etc., that's great. But if a tank with all the usual things one expects to be included with a tank by other companies costs more than $350, it is certainly fair to take that in consideration when discussing the price.

 

[jazzeum]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Doug,

I don't what you're getting in a tizzy about. Leaving aside most of what you said, it boils down to four basic questions.

Are warbirds expensive? Yes.

Are the HB tanks going to be expensive? Yes.

Are warbirds great? Yes.

Are these tanks going to be great. Yes.

End of story.

 

[Combat]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

Doug,

I don't what you're getting in a tizzy about. Leaving aside most of what you said, it boils down to four basic questions.

Are warbirds expensive? Yes.

Are the HB tanks going to be expensive? Yes.

Are warbirds great? Yes.

Are these tanks going to be great. Yes.

End of story.

A politican once said never argue with a man who has some reason not to be convinced. So my last word on the subject for anyone else is just reread the posts and decide if there is a double standard here. If so, then why? Nothing "tizzy" like in that.

 

[steel wheels]

Re: An Early Christmas Present from K&C

The wonderful thing about this hobby, is there is a price range that can fit anyones budget. One can collect FOV or high end HB or everything in between. I know there has been lots of discussion regarding the latest HB tigers that are coming out with a hefty price tag of $350 to $500 plus depending on what you choose. I think those tigers are real beauty's from what I have seen, and I could buy one if I so desire. I own the HB winter Sherman so I know they are all quality tanks. Having said that, I do not feel the Tiger pricing is out of line for anyone who could afford them, but for me personally, I think $200.00 is about as high as I need to go for any model tank. An HB Tiger that may cost me over $500.00, can buy a K&C limited sandbagged Sherman, a limited Tiger and an M10 tank destroyer, all complete highly detailed crew members that HB has yet to match. My fear here is this strategy could backfire on HB. lets just say that K&C sells all 1250 units of their limited tiger. That comes out to $250.000 in sales. If HB sells 100 units of their $500.00 tiger, that amount to $50.000. I'm not mentioning the base tank of 350.00, because I do not think that will sell much without figures and detailing. I want to see HB succeed in their venture, but I think from a financial standpoint, they are taking a do or die risk here because their selection is very limited, and I do not see these tanks generating enough revenue over the long haul to compete toe to toe with K&C from the sheer standpoint of affordability. Only time will tell, and I hope I am wrong, because I really think HB is a phenominal product.
.

 

[agmtanks]

Thank you for taking a considerable amount of time and thought in composing this post. I am glad you were near the end of the Honour Bound Tiger discussion. This much discussed subject needed your input and information.You put everything in a much clearer light and this is one the best posts I have read this year. I will be purchasing one of these Tigers for my own collection, probably the Winter version.It will go with my Winter Panther and Jagdpanther. Stay warm in Canada, Andy

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Well thanks Andy! You made my day. Take care.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Here's some more info I dug up to help make people's complicated customizing decisions a bit easier:

First here's a pretty good website (I think Pierre posted it here last year) with some info on Tiger camouflage and insignia (scroll down about halfway through the page): http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm.

Of particular note are the pictures of the insignia used by the Schwere Panzer Abteilung (Heavy Tank Battalions), which were the main users of Tigers in the German army. I have seen the book in the library that these insignia were scanned from so I can vouch for their accuracy. Because they fielded such powerful tanks, the heavy battalions operated independently of divisions and were often shifted around like fire fighters to shore up defences where needed. In addition to the Wehrmacht heavy battalions there were also 3 SS heavy battalions that were integral to the 3 most famous SS divisions, and they used the identical or similar insignia of their parent division (1st SS LAH had two crossed keys for an insignia, 2nd SS Das Reich used the "wolfsangel" squiggle thing and 3rd SS Totenkopf used the skull). Some sub-units also had their own special insignia like 8th tiger company of Das Reich that had a little gnome, but when in doubt it's probably safe to use the divisional SS insignia. There was also a heavy tiger tank battalion in Grossdeutschland division, the most elite unit in the Wehrmacht that received priority for the best equipment just like the SS. Finally there were ad-hoc formations at the end of the war using late-model tigers but I don't know much about them.

So a more casual collector might just want to choose the insignia design they fancy the best, whereas those up to the challenge of doing more in-depth research might want to select a unit and its insignia based on what theatre and location they want their tiger to be in, and also whether that unit was indeed using late model tigers at all rather than switching to King Tigers as many units did near the end of the war.

The other confusing thing is the numbering system on the sides of the tanks which technically is simple but in practice is not. The website above notes that heavy tiger battalions were supposed to have 45 tanks total, subdivided into 3 companies of 14 tanks each and 3 additional tanks for the command company. The standard protocol was that the first digit on the side of a tank denoted the company number from 1-4 and the 2nd digit told the zug/platoon number (4 platoons within a company, and 0 meant company commander). The 3rd and final digit is the individual tank number within the platoon from 1-4. So "214" likely means 2nd company, 1st platoon, 4th tank and "101" means 1st company, command platoon, 1st tank (command platoons usually only had 2 tanks). There were apparently tons of variations, for example sometimes they would drop one of the digits (which messes up the order and makes identification difficult), or substitute "S" for Schwere (heavy) so you get numbers like S02.

So technically if you stay within the above numbering system you have a decent chance of choosing a number that actually existed in real life, but of course this doesn't account for specific unit peculiarities or battlefield attrition (e.g. number 113 in heavy tank battalion 501 might hypothetically have been knocked out by 1945 and never replaced). Note also that as the war went on there was a tendency to reduce the number of tigers in a battalion or company so sticking to low numbers 1-3 is probably a good idea. The alternative is to track down websites and books that in fact give detailed lists of every tiger number in existence. If I was HB I might want to make this info available on their website for convenience.

Note I am NOT an armor expert by any means and I've only come by some of this knowledge while trying to make sense of some of the plastic tanks I own. If real armor experts here notice an error in anything I wrote above please correct me.