US/Israel Launches Op Epic Fury Against Iran (5 Viewers)

[Warrior]

Where is your proof, you are the first one to mention it, so it comes from you on this forum,

I'm not the first one to mention it there Harry, so hold your water.

 

[Warrior]

When the head of a government makes a decision there is no requirement that you have to agree with it. There are many means to protest a decision. That’s what living in a democracy is all about. I would never defer to a decision made by the head of the regime just because he made the decision.

It’s not astounding really. We all have short memories. You can point from Trump to FDR and probably all the way back to Lincoln as to presidents who were reviled. When you make difficult decisions, some will like them and some won’t.

No one is saying you have to agree with the decisions a president makes; like for example leaving out southern border wide open for 4 years.

 

[Barkmann]

I'm not the first one to mention it there Harry, so hold your water.

I think you have a strange understanding of Geography and what the video is claiming.
Firstly Diego Garcia is not in Europe, it is actually closer to Iran than it is to Europe and in a totally different direction.
Secondly the video, which i had seen, is a 'what if' video, not what has happened.
You said, and the first to say on TFrog, there had been an attack on Europe, so either get your facts right or tell us all where you heard the news there had been an attack on Europe. That is what you were the first to mention, are you spreading or starting fake news? Here are your wods below,

What about the missiles lobbed at Europe; NATO is ok with that?

Or maybe that's fake news, you tell me.

 

[Warrior]

I think you have a strange understanding of Geography and what the video is claiming.
Firstly Diego Garcia is not in Europe, it is actually closer to Iran than it is to Europe and in a totally different direction.
Secondly the video, which i had seen, is a 'what if' video, not what has happened.
You said, and the first to say on TFrog, there had been an attack on Europe, so either get your facts right or tell us all where you heard the news there had been an attack on Europe. That is what you were the first to mention, are you spreading or starting fake news? Here are your wods below,

What about the missiles lobbed at Europe; NATO is ok with that?

Or maybe that's fake news, you tell me.

is that not a jointly held base US/UK; so if it had been hit, the Uk would be ok with that?

The entire point is if they can lob a missile at that base, they can also lob a missile at Europe, which everyone claims they could not do/did not have missiles that could go that far.

 

[jazzeum]

No one is saying you have to agree with the decisions a president makes; like for example leaving out southern border wide open for 4 years.

And he rightly received grief for his inaction. That’s what living in a democracy entails, one that Trump would love to curtail, unless you agree with dear leader.

 

[jazzeum]

is that not a jointly held base US/UK; so if it had been hit, the Uk would be ok with that?

The entire point is if they can lob a missile at that base, they can also lob a missile at Europe, which everyone claims they could not do/did not have missiles that could go that far.

They could but why would they. They have no beef with Europe, just Israel and the US. Americans may have forgotten about it — as if most ever knew — but the Iranians have never forgotten about the CIA’s overthrow of Mossadegh.

 

[Warrior]

They could but why would they. They have no beef with Europe, just Israel and the US. Americans may have forgotten about it — as if most ever knew — but the Iranians have never forgotten about the CIA’s overthrow of Mossadegh.

Why are they lobbing missiles at oil tankers in the strait of Hormuz or civilian targets in the region?

Because that's what they do.

I guess we as Americans (or most of us anyway) are going to have to learn to live with the disappointment that Iran is never going to forgive us for the CIA's overthrow of Mossadegh, which explains why they chant "Death to America" and are the #1 state sponsor of terrorism in the world.

 

[jazzeum]

Why are they lobbing missiles at oil tankers in the strait of Hormuz or civilian targets in the region?

Because that's what they do.

I guess we as Americans (or most of us anyway) are going to have to learn to live with the disappointment that Iran is never going to forgive us for the CIA's overthrow of Mossadegh, which explains why they chant "Death to America" and are the #1 state sponsor of terrorism in the world.

You can make light of past history (which I doubt you knew about anyway) but the past informs the present.

 

[Combat]

I'm not sure everyone understands NATO's doctrine...

NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) is a political and military alliance formed in 1949, primarily designed as a DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE to guarantee the freedom and security of its member nations. It operates on the principle of collective defense, where an attack against one member is considered an attack against all, as enshrined in Article 5 of its founding treaty.

NATO Article 5, which states that an attack on one member is an attack on all, has been invoked only once in the alliance’s history. It was triggered on September 12, 2001, by the North Atlantic Council immediately following the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States.

NATO assisted the U.S. under Article 5 following the 9/11 attacks by immediately launching collective defense measures, marking the only time the clause has been triggered. Allies provided direct military support through patrol aircraft and naval forces, followed by long-term commitment to the subsequent conflict in Afghanistan.

NATO is a defensive alliance...not an offensive alliance...meaning their doctrine is to defend a member if they are attacked…

their doctrine is not to join in an offensive engagement unless a member is attacked first…

Trump went on the offensive...the USA was not attacked to start this war...the USA attacked Iran...NATO’s doctrine is only to defend a member that is attacked…

Trump never even discussed his plan to attack Iran with NATO members…now that the US is running out of targets...and the most dangerous objective left is the Straight of Hormuz...with Iran putting a stranglehold on the world's oil...he wants NATO to jump in and save the day...

If you were a member of NATO and I punched you in the nose...they would invoke Article 5 and come to your aid against me...

it’s not in their doctrine to help you if you throw the first punch...this is the principle agreement of Article 5...

That would be great if they paid even their small share. They do not. They instead rely on the US to bankroll the military. Which we have stupidly done for decades with no end in sight. They charge us to rent bases in their countries to defend them. Then when we try to keep Iran from nuking Israel and potentially targets in Europe they not only refuse to assist us but actually prohibit us from using their airspace. And they are the ones getting their oil from elsewhere. The US has enough oil not to import from anyone. It would be laughable if the consequences were not so series. And there is no real threat that Russia is going to invade Europe. They can't even overrun some lightly defended regions in Ukraine. The sole reason that the US has these bases and spends so much money is because it gives our politicians enormous power over trillions of dollars. They get to decide who gets that money which is an important source of their power.

 

[mikemiller1955]

That would be great if they paid even their small share. They do not. They instead rely on the US to bankroll the military. Which we have stupidly done for decades with no end in sight. They charge us to rent bases in their countries to defend them. Then when we try to keep Iran from nuking Israel and potentially targets in Europe they not only refuse to assist us but actually prohibit us from using their airspace. And they are the ones getting their oil from elsewhere. The US has enough oil not to import from anyone. It would be laughable if the consequences were not so series. And there is no real threat that Russia is going to invade Europe. They can't even overrun some lightly defended regions in Ukraine. The sole reason that the US has these bases and spends so much money is because it gives our politicians enormous power over trillions of dollars. They get to decide who gets that money which is an important source of their power.

NATO countries generally do not charge the US traditional "rent" for air force bases. Instead, hosting arrangements are governed by bilateral agreements where the US typically pays for operating and maintaining the bases (utilities, personnel), while host nations often provide the land, infrastructure, and tax exemptions...

Host countries (e.g., Germany, UK, Italy) often provide perks like tax exemptions or waive custom duties as part of the agreement...

Some reports indicate that NATO allies collectively provide roughly $2.5 billion annually in support for U.S. basing costs...

The U.S. maintains dozens of bases (like Ramstein Air Base) rent-free. Germany indirectly compensates the U.S. through tax exemptions and has historically contributed hundreds of millions of dollars toward infrastructure projects for U.S. personnel

 

[tdubel]

You can make light of past history (which I doubt you knew about anyway) but the past informs the present.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Which I think is what I am saying, Iran's actions have also led to the current conflict. You can't sponsor terror daily and expect no repercussions. You can't bully your neighbors (Saudi, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, etc) and expect them to agree with you or save you. In my lifetime, we have seen a lot of bad apples, Iran's current regime is one of the worst, maybe the worst. They are literally behind or have a hand in or are sponsoring nearly every single attack on Israel. (Those are facts, not opinion) That cannot continue.

We keep talking about history, why does no one but me mention the Persian Empire and its goals? In my opinion, not much has changed. They were bad actors then, they are worse now.

In my opinion, right now, is a chance for the world to finish this regime once and for all and help the majority innocent citizens of Iran. Forget who is currently the tip of the spear, it is the right and just thing to do. Not every nation has to drop a bomb, economic moves are crippling too. Calling out Russia and China's continued sponsorship is worth something too. This regime is not going to stop until they are stopped.

One thing to add - I would agree with any US President who made this decision, I don't care if it was Trump, Biden, Obama, Clinton, Bush(s), etc. I truly believe if you take the terror of Iran off the chess board, the Middle East could and has the chance to become a more peaceful region. You will still have bad actors, but I would imagine there would be a lot less terrorists that are well funded and sponsored. Maybe it produces more harmony and live and let live in that region.

 

[jazzeum]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Which I think is what I am saying, Iran's actions have also led to the current conflict. You can't sponsor terror daily and expect no repercussions. You can't bully your neighbors (Saudi, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, etc) and expect them to agree with you or save you. In my lifetime, we have seen a lot of bad apples, Iran's current regime is one of the worst, maybe the worst. They are literally behind or have a hand in or are sponsoring nearly every single attack on Israel. (Those are facts, not opinion) That cannot continue.

We keep talking about history, why does no one but me mention the Persian Empire and its goals? In my opinion, not much has changed. They were bad actors then, they are worse now.

In my opinion, right now, is a chance for the world to finish this regime once and for all and help the majority innocent citizens of Iran. Forget who is currently the tip of the spear, it is the right and just thing to do. Not every nation has to drop a bomb, economic moves are crippling too. Calling out Russia and China's continued sponsorship is worth something too. This regime is not going to stop until they are stopped.

One thing to add - I would agree with any US President who made this decision, I don't care if it was Trump, Biden, Obama, Clinton, Bush(s), etc. I truly believe if you take the terror of Iran off the chess board, the Middle East could and has the chance to become a more peaceful region. You will still have bad actors, but I would imagine there would be a lot less terrorists that are well funded and sponsored. Maybe it produces more harmony and live and let live in that region.

Credit Israel for destroying or weakening their allies but I don’t believe this regime is going anywhere unless the Iranian people rise up. I firmly believe that in any dictatorial or autocratic regime, it is the people themselves that must do the work, not outside forces (who can help but can’t be the ones that do it).

 

[Horus]

One major problem for the Iranian people, I don't include the IRGC as they will just go out and take what they want, will be the coming Summer.
Regardless of what happens in the next few weeks as far as whether the regime remains in place or is overthrown, as already last year as I expect anyone who watches the News will have noted and remember, is the catastrophic and pretty much self inflicted emergency that was already happening with the lack of drinking water for the populace.
If more desalination plants, the one on Qeshm island was bombed, though no one is admitting doing it. Possibly damaged as a way of making the people evacuate from that island, as will likely be a main target for some type of military action, sitting in the strait as it does.
If more are damaged and put out of action, then Iran will be in dire straits.
Last year there were demonstrations on the streets about this, to which the regimes answer was to shoot some demonstrators, and will likely happen again when the spring rains finish and the likelihood of water runs out.
So what ever happens in the coming weeks and months, there is likely going to be refugee flooding across borders causing a huge humanitarian emergency and unless handled with great care and Europe, US, digging it's hands into it's pockets, many will be heading for Europe, since much of the Middle East suffers from similar issues as does Africa.
Lots of things led to this, but what's a long term solution ?

 

[Combat]

One major problem for the Iranian people, I don't include the IRGC as they will just go out and take what they want, will be the coming Summer.
Regardless of what happens in the next few weeks as far as whether the regime remains in place or is overthrown, as already last year as I expect anyone who watches the News will have noted and remember, is the catastrophic and pretty much self inflicted emergency that was already happening with the lack of drinking water for the populace.
If more desalination plants, the one on Qeshm island was bombed, though no one is admitting doing it. Possibly damaged as a way of making the people evacuate from that island, as will likely be a main target for some type of military action, sitting in the strait as it does.
If more are damaged and put out of action, then Iran will be in dire straits.
Last year there were demonstrations on the streets about this, to which the regimes answer was to shoot some demonstrators, and will likely happen again when the spring rains finish and the likelihood of water runs out.
So what ever happens in the coming weeks and months, there is likely going to be refugee flooding across borders causing a huge humanitarian emergency and unless handled with great care and Europe, US, digging it's hands into it's pockets, many will be heading for Europe, since much of the Middle East suffers from similar issues as does Africa.
Lots of things led to this, but what's a long term solution ?

These are the options for resolution:

1) Iran decides to abide by the rules of civilization which includes renouncing terrorism and abandoning its nuclear program. They can live in prosperity with their oil revenues, and everyone benefits. Not a very high bar but likely not obtainable with fanatics. Probability is low.

2) The Trump haters continue using our corrupt media as a force multiplier to politicize this conflict and pressure Trump into ending this in the next couple of weeks. Iran has been set back but will continue to work toward the destruction of the US and Israel. Probability is high.

3) Trump decides to stone age Iran by destroying its oil, energy, and water generating infrastructure. The US then bids them adieu and lets the pot boil hoping there is an uprising when the people are sitting in the dark with no water. Probability is medium.

4) Trump goes all in with ground troops and sticks it out. That is likely political suicide. Probability is low.