VEH017 Winter PzKpw IV Ausf F2 with Long Barrel 75mm and Winterketten (2 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

You say the product was defective and therefore caused harm (as you say you are an injured party). What is the harm? Were you physically injured as you would be with a consumer product that was defective, such as food or a drug? No, there was harm here. The harm is your anal retentiveness that prevents you from enjoying anything you purchase. When I used to purchase K & C wooden warbirds I used to examine them as you examine tanks. One time I asked to send one back and Andy graciously agreed and he sent me a substitute. When I emailed him about the substitute, he said "maybe these are not for you." I got the point and have not sweated the small stuff but have enjoyed the ones I have since purchased.

The following two rules might do you some good to help you live a stress free life: don't sweat the small stuff and rule number two, everything is small stuff.

Making military miniatures is an art, not a science. Would it be otherwise, but it's not. This isn't like making a pharmaceutical where you have specifications that have to be complied with before the product can be released to the public.

You indicate that you will no longer be purchasing FL products. Without a doubt that is the best news Matt will probably get today.

Brad

 

[Jack]

You say the product was defective and therefore caused harm (as you say you are an injured party). What is the harm? Were you physically injured as you would be with a consumer product that was defective, such as food or a drug? No, there was harm here. The harm is your anal retentiveness that prevents you from enjoying anything you purchase. When I used to purchase K & C wooden warbirds I used to examine them as you examine tanks. One time I asked to send one back and Andy graciously agreed and he sent me a substitute. When I emailed him about the substitute, he said "maybe these are not for you." I got the point and have not sweated the small stuff but have enjoyed the ones I have since purchased.

The following two rules might do you some good to help you live a stress free life: don't sweat the small stuff and rule number two, everything is small stuff.

Making military miniatures is an art, not a science. Would it be otherwise, but it's not. This isn't like making a pharmaceutical where you have specifications that have to be complied with before the product can be released to the public.

You indicate that you will no longer be purchasing FL products. Without a doubt that is the best news Matt will probably get today.

Brad

In an irrelevant aside I once worked with a manager who publically announced that he would oversee an institution wide policy of 'sweating the small stuff'.

That said, I am with FL on this one, not that they will sleep easy tonight knowing that. They have released a product in a competitive market and have sold out within a day. Now that is a company I would buy shares in!

 

[jazzeum]

I assume you didn't work for them too long!

 

[Jack]

I assume you didn't work for them too long!

Correct, but interestingly he followed the path of many educational leaders - breath of fresh air, high hopes for real change gradually disappear, disenchantment, destruction, promotion. Then repeat!

 

[nk81]

well that sold-out fast, FL must be doing something right.

here's hoping the predicted Waffen SS armor have a higher production run.

 

[katana]

Thank you for the complement. Attention to details was very important in my profession of designing and building life support equipment; where a mistake could result in the death of a patient.

I enjoy many things that I purchase; because they are the best that they can be; a Questar Telescope, a Le Coulter ATMOS Clock, a, Fugekawa Porcelian Vase etc. When I purchase an item I expect it to be as advertised i.e. the correct size, color, level of finish etc. Products that do not match the advertised specification are returned for a refund or credit. You have stated that you did this with K&C products that displeased you. Why should I respond any differently to a defective product. You say you have compromised your standards. I choose not to do so.

The injured party is a legal term of art as I am sure you are aware. Sarcasm is also an art best applied more circumspectly. You asked why the FL PZ IV sold out so quickly. I responded by descibing a typical marketing technique that attempted to answer your question. Obviously you did not like my reply to your question; but I do not think it proper to respond with physiologicaly disparaging references unsuitable for a Toy Soldier Forum.

You say the product was defective and therefore caused harm (as you say you are an injured party). What is the harm? Were you physically injured as you would be with a consumer product that was defective, such as food or a drug? No, there was harm here. The harm is your anal retentiveness that prevents you from enjoying anything you purchase. When I used to purchase K & C wooden warbirds I used to examine them as you examine tanks. One time I asked to send one back and Andy graciously agreed and he sent me a substitute. When I emailed him about the substitute, he said "maybe these are not for you." I got the point and have not sweated the small stuff but have enjoyed the ones I have since purchased.

The following two rules might do you some good to help you live a stress free life: don't sweat the small stuff and rule number two, everything is small stuff.

Making military miniatures is an art, not a science. Would it be otherwise, but it's not. This isn't like making a pharmaceutical where you have specifications that have to be complied with before the product can be released to the public.

You indicate that you will no longer be purchasing FL products. Without a doubt that is the best news Matt will probably get today.

Brad

 

[Rutledge]

".... After this enlightening conversation I will in future purchase Panzers from a company that values its customers and assists in resolving their problems.

Contrary to popular lore the customer is NOT always right. In fact often times, and I speak from direct experience, although in a different line of work, a customer can be dead wrong.

Moreover, right or wrong aside, sometimes a customer just ain't worth the trouble.

You've chosen the right solution, however. Don't let the door.....

Note: I in no way speak for FL or its personnel, these are just my personal opinions.

 

[sammy719]

We are pleased to present this winter variant of our Panzer IV Ausf F2 for our Battle of Stalingrad figure range. We have equipped this model with “Winterketten” to allow it to ride more smoothly across the snow covered battlefields of Russia. This is a truly spectacular models and have a wide variety of features:

- Opening & Closing Commander's Turret
- Opening & Closing Left Side Turret Hatches (Though not shown in any images, the left turret hatch opens and closes)
- Opening Closing Rear Turret Storage Hatch
- Fully Rotating Turret
- Gun Raises/Lowers
- Antenna Raises/Lowers
- Non-Attached Stowage Accessories Included
- Extremely realistic weathering and superb sculpting and painting
- Perfectly Fits Tank Crew TC006/TC007/TC008
- Winterketten Tracks

Forewarned is forearmed as they say and well over 50% of this production run is already sold and we only officially announced the product today. So if you want this model in your collection we highly recommend that you order it immediately. If you order it through a dealer, be sure the dealer orders it from us immediately. I can’t stress to you enough that we anticipate this vehicle will be sold out prior to arriving at our warehouse.

That's a wrap for April!

Best,

Matt
First Legion

A question for Matt, do you think a second run of this tank will happen later on??...Sammy

 

[jazzeum]

In our respective professions, we are exacting and need to pay attention to detail. That is expected. As an attorney, a comma or a word can make a significant difference in a commercial transaction. However, a hobby is an avocation, the opposite of a vocation. I don't come to an avocation with the same standards that I apply to a vocation. If I do, then it ceases to be a hobby. I believe that you cannot separate the two.

There is a significant difference between a telescope and a military miniature. It's night and day and the sad part is that you can't see the difference. The standards that I would apply to purchasing a car, a phone or another sophisticated consumer product is not the same standard I apply to buying a military miniature or buying a bottle of wine. They are different and one size does not fit all.

You may not think it is appropriate to respond with a pyschological characterization but you are the most anal retentive person I've seen in this hobby or certainly on this Forum.

Perhaps this hobby is not for you and you might enjoy something else. Just a thought.

 

[FirstLegion]

The FL Panzer IV I purchased and returned cost $299 plus shipping. I never stated that it cost $349 USD. Why do you imply my statements are not true.

No, but you have stated at least twice that I'm aware of that our tanks now cost $350 which is bizarre if you just purchased and returned one for $299 + Shipping recently and we just released another one for $299 in a thread which you are currently engaged in conversation. Perhaps you just forgot how much you paid for it as after all it must have been days and days ago. Oh, and by the way, there isn't a single dealer that I'm aware of that charges shipping costs and certainly none that would charge return shipping costs on a "defective" product.

Why will you not provide the dimensional information I requested.

I do have a company to run which does keep me rather busy. But, just to show I'm a good sport and responsive we did measure the model mainly because I found it incredibly difficult to believe that we could have been off by that much. Guess what, we weren't.

The dimensions of VEH016 are:

197mm (Length) x 96mm (Width) x 88mm (Height)

You stated the correct dimensions of a 1/30 scale Panzer IV F1 should be: Length 197 mm, Width 95 mm, Height 89 mm. So apparently we were off 1mm on width and 1mm on height. It's a hand made product, I'd like to think we get a pass on that and the model is 1/30th scale as stated. Or, to make you happy, maybe we can call it 1/29.999984434 scale.

Here is an image showing the height measurement. I have images showing the others as well, but have neither the time nor inclination to post them. By all means, please post the images you surely must have taken of the "defective" panzer IV and your exacting measurements of it. Oh, and being the ones who make the models, let me inform you of something. It would be impossible for the measurements to be so far off as you have claimed resulting in a defective product. The model simply wouldn't fit together at all if the parts were so off - well, unless of course all 100+ parts shrunk at the exact same rate on the one model you purchased, measured, and returned. So it's much more likely that your measurements were flawed than that you received a "defective" model which was smaller than every other model in the production run.

I as the customer was the injured party receiving a defective product and having to return it at my own expense. Yet you accuse me of perfidity and the seller of ripping me off. You make a number of invalid assumptions and accusations. I was planning to purchase a replacement; as I considered it superior to the Figarti iteration. After this enlightening conversation I will in future purchase Panzers from a company that values its customers and assists in resolving their problems.

"Injured party." Classic. I'm not accusing you of "perfidity" (which isn't a word by the way, it's perfidy or perfidious), I'm accusing you of being a unique mix of irrational, obtuse, and quite possibly disingenuous.

Anyone who is actually a customer of ours knows full well that we value our customers and provide excellent customer service. And had you purchased the model, measured it, and then contacted us about it while you still had it, we would have looked into what was going on. But you instead received it, returned it, and then come on here and claim it was defective/not as advertised and the first we've ever heard about it was buried in a thread on a public forum. When you return a defective "Questar Telescope", do you demand answers a month later by posting on an astrology forum and expect the MFR to provide you the radius of the lens of a product that they don't even sell any longer and you don't even own any longer?

Against my far better judgment, I have now answered your question. Now quid pro quo, answer my question: where did you buy this mysteriously defective and subsequently returned model from? Is it a secret?

As a final point, I'd like to nominate Brad's post #41 as post of the decade.

Matt

 

[chemiebay]

Hi everybody,

Well, I have been reading this interesting thread and here are my thoughts...(sorry in advance for my English)

1. I am a loyal wwii range FL products collector.
2. FL is free to produce a run in whatever numbers they want, I mean, a limited 50 edition or a 2000 edicion.
3. FL is actually #1 in quality, I consider their AFV are much better than polystone ones.
4. I stop collecting other brands, and actually I only buy items from FL.
5. As I collector, I tried to get every single item they produce and most of the times I got them...
6a. ...now with such a limited runs, I am getting used to pass on some items and I am losing the needed to get everything they produce.
6b. ...because I don´t swin in money, I will also try to be ready to pay for a item I am really interested in, because they sell out in two days, letting go other items.

Just my personal opinion,
cheers

 

[FirstLegion]

A question for Matt, do you think a second run of this tank will happen later on??...Sammy

Because it's been so much fun this first time around? ^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin

I kid of course. As of now, we have no plans to redo the model. Perhaps when we are able to expand capacity we will revisit it. But if we keep remaking tanks that sell out, which we've done several times, then we just delay the new tanks we're working on.

 

[MajorPoint]

I will in future purchase Panzers from a company that values its customers and assists in resolving their problems.

I don't think Toys'R'Us stock too many Panzers, and good luck if you think they'll value your custom. As for your problem, it appears to be beyond any resolution. Not on a toy soldier forum.
You don't happen to be someone who disappeared from these forums some years ago do you? He was always right as well as being anally retentive. Called himself "Canadian Samurai".

 

[Rutledge]

I don't think Toys'R'Us stock too many Panzers, and good luck if you think they'll value your custom. As for your problem, it appears to be beyond any resolution. Not on a toy soldier forum.
You don't happen to be someone who disappeared from these forums some years ago do you? He was always right as well as being anally retentive. Called himself "Canadian Samurai".

Canadien Samurai is still on the Forum. He "rebranded" himself but is not the same person as katana.

 

[jazzeum]

Hi everybody,

Well, I have been reading this interesting thread and here are my thoughts...(sorry in advance for my English)

1. I am a loyal wwii range FL products collector.
2. FL is free to produce a run in whatever numbers they want, I mean, a limited 50 edition or a 2000 edicion.
3. FL is actually #1 in quality, I consider their AFV are much better than polystone ones.
4. I stop collecting other brands, and actually I only buy items from FL.
5. As I collector, I tried to get every single item they produce and most of the times I got them...
6a. ...now with such a limited runs, I am getting used to pass on some items and I am losing the needed to get everything they produce.
6b. ...because I don´t swin in money, I will also try to be ready to pay for a item I am really interested in, because they sell out in two days, letting go other items.

Just my personal opinion,
cheers

Excellent points, particularly number 4. I've been liquidating parts of my other collection to focus (and afford ^&grin) First Legion.

Brad

 

[katana]

Argumentum Ad Hominem

In our respective professions, we are exacting and need to pay attention to detail. That is expected. As an attorney, a comma or a word can make a significant difference in a commercial transaction. However, a hobby is an avocation, the opposite of a vocation. I don't come to an avocation with the same standards that I apply to a vocation. If I do, then it ceases to be a hobby. I believe that you cannot separate the two.

There is a significant difference between a telescope and a military miniature. It's night and day and the sad part is that you can't see the difference. The standards that I would apply to purchasing a car, a phone or another sophisticated consumer product is not the same standard I apply to buying a military miniature or buying a bottle of wine. They are different and one size does not fit all.

You may not think it is appropriate to respond with a pyschological characterization but you are the most anal retentive person I've seen in this hobby or certainly on this Forum.

Perhaps this hobby is not for you and you might enjoy something else. Just a thought.

 

[MajorPoint]

Canadien Samurai is still on the Forum. He "rebranded" himself but is not the same person as katana.

Must be his twin sister then

 

[katana]

Thank you for the dimensional data. Obiously the piece I received was defective and the problem was not a design or production defect; which is what I was trying to verify.

Perfidity-Treacherous, Oxford English Dictionary

I stated clearly that the First Legion Panzer price had increased to $349 USD. Panzer is a generic term for Armor and refers to all German Armored vehicles, including the Sd. Kfz. 251 priced on your website at $349.00

The dealer I purchased the Panzer IV F1 from is an Ebay seller as other sellers like Treefrog Treasures and Hobby Bunker were out of stock on this item. I normally return defective products to the vendor I purchased it from; not the manufacturer.

No, but you have stated at least twice that I'm aware of that our tanks now cost $350 which is bizarre if you just purchased and returned one for $299 + Shipping recently and we just released another one for $299 in a thread which you are currently engaged in conversation. Perhaps you just forgot how much you paid for it as after all it must have been days and days ago. Oh, and by the way, there isn't a single dealer that I'm aware of that charges shipping costs and certainly none that would charge return shipping costs on a "defective" product.



I do have a company to run which does keep me rather busy. But, just to show I'm a good sport and responsive we did measure the model mainly because I found it incredibly difficult to believe that we could have been off by that much. Guess what, we weren't.

The dimensions of VEH016 are:

197mm (Length) x 96mm (Width) x 88mm (Height)

You stated the correct dimensions of a 1/30 scale Panzer IV F1 should be: Length 197 mm, Width 95 mm, Height 89 mm. So apparently we were off 1mm on width and 1mm on height. It's a hand made product, I'd like to think we get a pass on that and the model is 1/30th scale as stated. Or, to make you happy, maybe we can call it 1/29.999984434 scale.

Here is an image showing the height measurement. I have images showing the others as well, but have neither the time nor inclination to post them. By all means, please post the images you surely must have taken of the "defective" panzer IV and your exacting measurements of it. Oh, and being the ones who make the models, let me inform you of something. It would be impossible for the measurements to be so far off as you have claimed resulting in a defective product. The model simply wouldn't fit together at all if the parts were so off - well, unless of course all 100+ parts shrunk at the exact same rate on the one model you purchased, measured, and returned. So it's much more likely that your measurements were flawed than that you received a "defective" model which was smaller than every other model in the production run.

View attachment 190183



"Injured party." Classic. I'm not accusing you of "perfidity" (which isn't a word by the way, it's perfidy or perfidious), I'm accusing you of being a unique mix of irrational, obtuse, and quite possibly disingenuous.

Anyone who is actually a customer of ours knows full well that we value our customers and provide excellent customer service. And had you purchased the model, measured it, and then contacted us about it while you still had it, we would have looked into what was going on. But you instead received it, returned it, and then come on here and claim it was defective/not as advertised and the first we've ever heard about it was buried in a thread on a public forum. When you return a defective "Questar Telescope", do you demand answers a month later by posting on an astrology forum and expect the MFR to provide you the radius of the lens of a product that they don't even sell any longer and you don't even own any longer?

Against my far better judgment, I have now answered your question. Now quid pro quo, answer my question: where did you buy this mysteriously defective and subsequently returned model from? Is it a secret?

As a final point, I'd like to nominate Brad's post #41 as post of the decade.

Matt

 

[jazzeum]

I stated clearly that the First Legion Panzer price had increased to $349 USD. Panzer is a generic term for Armor and refers to all German Armored vehicles, including the Sd. Kfz. 251 priced on your website at $349.00

In post 31, Matt pointed out why one of the 251 variants was $349, as a figure was included. However, the other 251, now retired, was $299. You extrapolate one instance where the price was increased to a general price increase.

Yet, you keep repeating this, despite clear evidence to the contrary as the prices have remained at $299, including the just retired VEH 017.

It's quite puzzling.

 

[Rutledge]

Must be his twin sister then

Surely soul mates