WW2 Revisionist History (1 Viewer)

[jrsteel]

Tonight on PBS there's a show on PBS in the U.S. called War Of The World. It's made by historian Niall Fergusen. In it he staes the Allies were really no better than the Axis powers because of the bombings of German and Japanese cities. There's also a book out by Pat Buchanan saying that WW2 was not neccesary and that the main villain was Churchill?? In the book he insinuates the Holocaust happened because of the war. There's another book out called Human Smoke that states the same thing. What's with all this revisionist history? I'm sorry, the Allies were the good guys and Germany and Japan were the bad guys and they needed to be defeated. Simple as that. If you want to read a good book about the last year of the Pacific War and if the firebombings of Tokyo and Atom Bombs were neccesary, read "Retribution".
How do you guys feel about WW2 revisionist history? To me it denigrates the sacrifice of all the Allied soldiers who gave up their lives in the war.

 

[1879fanatic]

JRSTEEEL,

I'm with you, as well as most other forum members. Keep in mind, some people's armchairs get so soft and plush, they never get out of them to see the real world. With a gullible public, they become dangerous. Mike

 

[Louis Badolato]

Well the @ssholes writing these revisionist books can thank their lucky stars that the goodguys really did win, a the last time I checked the Nazis and the Japs were not real big proponents of free speech. That being said, if I met one of these yahoos in person, I would take a great deal of pleasure in violating their civil rights with my boot!

 

[OzDigger]

I haven't heard of any of these historians, but before we get to carried away I reckon we should get a clear handle on what Historical Revisionism actually is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism

 

[Capitolron]

You know - I don't think our JAP friends (yes, I said JAP ) were checking in with Churchill when they BOMBED PEARL HARBOR.

For the Over 3,000 killed and wounded brave Americans at Pearl Harbor - I personally dont think two ATOM BOMBS WERE ENOUGH. And I assure you there are plenty of Chinese, Koreans and even Vietnamese victims who agree with me.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Sad and pathetic and a seeming inevitable consequence of being removed from the events. It brings to mind this John Stuart Mill quote: "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

 

[noli-poli]

You know - I don't think our JAP friends (yes, I said JAP ) were checking in with Churchill when they BOMBED PEARL HARBOR.

For the Over 3,000 killed and wounded brave Americans at Pearl Harbor - I personally dont think two ATOM BOMBS WERE ENOUGH. And I assure you there are plenty of Chinese, Koreans and even Vietnamese victims who agree with me.

The brutality of the Japanese Imperial far exceeded whatever the Germans did in Europe. The 6 million Jews and other nationalities killed during the holocoust overshadows the 15-20 million Chinese, Burmese, Filipinos,Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malaysians killed and brutalized in WWII..and not to mention the medical experimentation they did similar to the experimentation done at the German concentration camps. It is interesting to note that in the book "THE RAPE OF NANKING" (available at Barnes & Noble)a German SS officer observer was aghast at the cruelty of the Japs. Nanking, a city of 300,000 was reduced to 300 survivors. Several officers had contests on how many they can behead per hour!

They had rape camps just like what we recently saw in Bosnia. They maintained brothels with "comfort women" for their troops, and last but not the least the massacre of thousand American, Australian, British POW

All these are well documented atrocities. Unfortunately the U.S. is too Eurocentric to take notice. Yes, they deserved the Atom Bomb!

 

[jrsteel]

You know - I don't think our JAP friends (yes, I said JAP ) were checking in with Churchill when they BOMBED PEARL HARBOR.

For the Over 3,000 killed and wounded brave Americans at Pearl Harbor - I personally dont think two ATOM BOMBS WERE ENOUGH. And I assure you there are plenty of Chinese, Koreans and even Vietnamese victims who agree with me.

I'll tell you who else was glad the A-Bombs were dropped, the guys who were going to have to invade Japan. It would've been a bloodbath. Just look at the casualties on Okinawa.
I mentioned Pat Buchanan's new book. I heard he got a real friendly welcome from Sean Hannity the other night. Hannity was really plugging his book. Does he endorse Buchanan's view of WW2. Is this a new ultra-conservative thing?

 

[Louis Badolato]

I'll tell you who else was glad the A-Bombs were dropped, the guys who were going to have to invade Japan. It would've been a bloodbath. Just look at the casualties on Okinawa.
I mentioned Pat Buchanan's new book. I heard he got a real friendly welcome from Sean Hannity the other night. Hannity was really plugging his book. Does he endorse Buchanan's view of WW2. Is this a new ultra-conservative thing?

If it is I'm becoming a liberal!

 

[1879fanatic]

Please do'nt General! You will have completed the circle of politic. Too far right becomes left and vice-versa. Revisionism is simply the extension of relativism, in which the indidual is no longer responsible, and mores, ethics and common law are refined to the lowest common denominator. Just look at Kalifornia. Mike

 

[jazzeum]

I'm wondering how many of you actually have read Ferguson's book before you posted your comments. It is one of the more interesting books you'll read in a long time. I've read it and mentioned it here last year. I don't recall that particular comment but his overall thesis is that there are not two world wars but one that started in 1900 and ended with the Korean War so before you guys start getting overly excised, you may want to read it.

 

[OzDigger]

I'm wondering how many of you actually have read Ferguson's book before you posted your comments. It is one f the more interesting books you'll read in a long time. I've read it and mentioned it here last year. I don't recall that particular comment but his overall thesis is that there are not two world wars but one that started in 1900 and ended with the Korean War so before you guys start getting overly excised, you may want to read it.

Brad, that was the point I was making. It's generalising to just say ALL Revisionist History is a bad thing or denigrates servicemen. You have to read or view each new piece of information before you make your decision. But of course there are a number of people that won't change their opinions whatever apparently reliable info is brought forward.

 

[damian]

Some of those books are by holocaust deniers who are trying to divert attetion away from the final solution by lessening it and saying it was not really as bad as we all know it was. Niall Ferguson is not one of those I can assure you. There were a lot of acts such as the bombing campaign, the use of teh A bomb etc that raised a lot of moral debates for the Allies. Saying this is not denigrating the Allies. Jonathan Glover who is a professor of Ethics in London wrote a book called Humanity "A moral history of the 20 th Century" He analysed the whole issue quiet well. One of his best comments is about how Bomber Harris was being criticised by the Chief Chaplain fo the RAF and man who later went on to be a sneior archbishop. Apparently he never became Archbishop of Canterbury because he had annoyed so many people, Churchill included. Anyway Bomber Harris organized a whole debate at Bomber command between the RAF chaplain and one of his own aidse who was an Oxford Blue himself. Glover says that whatever one says about the bombing campaign this litte story epitomizes the difference between the Nazis and teh allies. He could never imagine Goering or Hitler organizing a similar debate in Berlin.

 

[OzDigger]

Some of those books are by holocaust deniers who are trying to divert attetion away from the final solution by lessening it and saying it was not really as bad as we all know it was. Niall Ferguson is not one of those I can assure you. There were a lot of acts such as the bombing campaign, the use of teh A bomb etc that raised a lot of moral debates for the Allies. Saying this is not denigrating the Allies. Jonathan Glover who is a professor of Ethics in London wrote a book called Humanity "A moral history of the 20 th Century" He analysed the whole issue quiet well. One of his best comments is about how Bomber Harris was being criticised by the Chief Chaplain fo the RAF and man who later went on to be a sneior archbishop. Apparently he never became Archbishop of Canterbury because he had annoyed so many people, Churchill included. Anyway Bomber Harris organized a whole debate at Bomber command between the RAF chaplain and one of his own aidse who was an Oxford Blue himself. Glover says that whatever one says about the bombing campaign this litte story epitomizes the difference between the Nazis and teh allies. He could never imagine Goering or Hitler organizing a similar debate in Berlin.

But, is that the REAL reason why he didn't become Archbishop of Canterbury. Which reminds me of that Blackadder episode, but we don't want this thread going off tangent - or do we

Anyhow I think there were plenty of people that suffered political backlashes because of their war career. 'Stuffy' Dowding, the main man behind the Battle of Britain was sacked, Churchill lost his PM position in the fist election after the war and nobody wanted to acknowledge Bomber Harris's efforts when the allies had no other way of hitting back. And of course Montgomery copped plenty of political flak. It seems they all lost out by varying degrees.

 

[UKReb]

Well I for one have read this book but I preferred his "Pity of War" which focused on Britains involvement in WWI in which he asked a number of thought provoking questions such as

Why did Britain get involved in a Continental War?
Was the war really received with popular enthusiasm?
Did propaganda and the press keep the war going?
Why did the huge economic superiority of the British Empire not inflict defeat more quickly on the combined Axis countries?
Why did the military superiority of the German Army fail to deliver victory on the French and English on the Western Front?
Why did men continue to fight in such appalling conditions?
Who won the peace?

The book was heavy going and didn't fully answer satisfactorily for me all the above but I would not deem it controversial for controversial sake.

Based on this 1999 tome I purchased War of the World (his version of WWII) and although I have no doubt that I wouldn't last two academic rounds with Professor Ferguson I immediately started to disagree and doubt the authenticity of his opening statements such as the war had nothing to do with economic privation or political ambition but was due to a peculiar 20th century trait of racial hatred!!!!!
20th century trait???? Did he forget about the Mongols; the Crusades and a dozen other racially orientated wars? Sorry professor de-humanising the enemy or would be enemies is as old as history itself.
And I would have thought that if Germany had not had super hyperinflation in the 20's would they have been able to fully mobilise like they did and so fast?.

I could go on but it would not achieve much here but I will conclude with a plus point in his book-as far as I'm concerned- he makes a good case in favour of "Bomber" Harris bombing campaign of German cities.

Not sure if my American friends here on the forum are aware but there is no memorial anywhere in England to those that served in Bomber Command during WWII. The PC nutters have done a good job of getting any memorial or campaign medals stopped including daubing red paint all over Air Marshall Sir Arthur Harris statue soon after it was unveiled in 1992. Why doesn't anyone tell these idiots that it is not glorifying war but remembering the thousands of young guys who died for us just doing their job.
They numbered 125,000 all of whom were volunteers, one in four were from overseas-Australia, New Zealand and especially Canada. 55,573 paid with their lives-the highest loss of any arm of service during the conflict. There has never been a campaign medal for these boys even though it is estimated that there are still 30,000 veterans who would be eligible.

There is however a movement here in the UK called "The Bomber Boys Crusade" funded purely and only by donation to try and recitify this, but unfortunately the PC crab apples have a strong lobby within government, yet they never seem to want to ask any of the surviving civilians who were on the end of the German bombing raids over the cities of London;Coventry and Plymouth coupled with the VI and V2 attacks on Southern England during '44/45 on what they think. Funny how they kinda miss wanting to do that.
But like my old Dad used to say "Son, you just cannot educate pork!"
Reb

 

[Rob]

When all is said and done its the people who lived through this that have the right to the final say in my opinion.In my years at the IWM i have met hundreds of civilians who lived the through the Blitz and the V Weapon attacks later in the war,and they answer in one voice.To them the boys in Bomber command and Bomber Harris himself are heroes.Not only do they agree with the bombing of Germany but they wanted the RAF/USAAF to 'Give it back tenfold'.(the most common term i hear on the subject).When you ask them about the Nazi's most of the answers are not printable on a forum.

I'm not interested in the revisionist theories of the bombing of Germany.I'll take the words of the elderly lady who approached me at the museum to tell me her story.Tears streaming down her face she told me how she lost a brother and sister when the house they were playing in was hit by a V1.The bare facts are these,the Germans started it and the Allies finished it.We are all at peace now and are partners in Europe and worldwide.But for god sake lets not denegrate the memory of the millions of men women and children who gave their lives across the world to rid the world of the scum that were the Nazi's.

Rob

 

[VIRIATO]

Always a hot theme. I am speaking from a country which was involved in WWI but not in WWII. I also was not born when WWII took place. The idea that I get from what I've seen and from what I've read all over the years is the same as most members of the forum: the Axis powers needed to be defeated, the sooner the better, and perhaps Nazi Germany needed to have been stopped earlier than 1939. But I also believe that the end of the war became Cold War, marred by splitting influence spheres between the Western Allies and the Soviets. That is why Berlin was left to the Russians, for instance. And Poland, and the Czechs, and so on... Realpolitik, you have to say, rather than just the good on one side and the bad on the other. Unfortunately the Soviet regime was not much better than the Nazi and ultimately the Russians, I believe, were the ones who bore by far the greatest brunt in defeating the Germans ( no disrespect whatever for the Western soldiers who fought, died, suffered, but the Eastern front scale of events was just something else ).
I also believe and have stated this before in another thread, that no innocent civilian from either side deserved dying in war ( whether through atom bomb, execution, V2 or other means ). This was a tragedy that came with War, and in fact civillians at the time were looked upon as fair target, whether through retribution or not. It is always incorrect I believe, to judge WWII's events on this civilian casualties matter through today's values: the world was different and I hope we will never again face something similar.
On the revisionist author's: I have not read the books so there is not anything I can say on them. But they have free speech right, part of the values people fought back then. I am really afraid of unanimism on this or on any other matter...

 

[Capitolron]

The brutality of the Japanese Imperial far exceeded whatever the Germans did in Europe. The 6 million Jews and other nationalities killed during the holocoust overshadows the 15-20 million Chinese, Burmese, Filipinos,Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malaysians killed and brutalized in WWII..and not to mention the medical experimentation they did similar to the experimentation done at the German concentration camps. It is interesting to note that in the book "THE RAPE OF NANKING" (available at Barnes & Noble)a German SS officer observer was aghast at the cruelty of the Japs. Nanking, a city of 300,000 was reduced to 300 survivors. Several officers had contests on how many they can behead per hour!

They had rape camps just like what we recently saw in Bosnia. They maintained brothels with "comfort women" for their troops, and last but not the least the massacre of thousand American, Australian, British POW

All these are well documented atrocities. Unfortunately the U.S. is too Eurocentric to take notice. Yes, they deserved the Atom Bomb!

RIGHT ON - Brother - RIGHT ON !

 

[tdubel]

My Grandfather is alive today b/c of the Atom Bombs. This is literally the truth as he was in the Philipines preparing for the Invasion of Japan. He spent the post war years in Occupied Japan helping them rebuild and punishing the war criminals. I really get irritated when I read about how we destroyed innocent civilians, that is plain bs. War is war.

Now, the point about the Rape of Nanking, that is a WOW. To dovetail onto the comments about the SS officer being appalled, there (and I forget his name, might be the same one) is a story I read on an SS officer who actually helped to save citizens in Nanking from the atrocities, almost like an underground railroad. Both Germany and Japan were hell bent on imposing their society and exterminating anyone who was different or not a part of their ideology. Anyone who writes differently today is plain nuts, those are documented facts.

TD

 

[VIRIATO]

My Grandfather is alive today b/c of the Atom Bombs. This is literally the truth as he was in the Philipines preparing for the Invasion of Japan. He spent the post war years in Occupied Japan helping them rebuild and punishing the war criminals. I really get irritated when I read about how we destroyed innocent civilians, that is plain bs. War is war.

Now, the point about the Rape of Nanking, that is a WOW. To dovetail onto the comments about the SS officer being appalled, there (and I forget his name, might be the same one) is a story I read on an SS officer who actually helped to save citizens in Nanking from the atrocities, almost like an underground railroad. Both Germany and Japan were hell bent on imposing their society and exterminating anyone who was different or not a part of their ideology. Anyone who writes differently today is plain nuts, those are documented facts.

TD

Hi,
War is war, that's a fact.
An innocent civilian is an innocent civilian, wherever he lives. That's another fact.

Regards,
Paulo