WW2 Revisionist History (2 Viewers)

Oz,
good point, same goes for Harry and Damian.

Terrorism is a whole other subject (as it should be). I equate terrorism, modern day atrocities (Bosnia, Sudan, Somalia) in the same category as the Holocaust and Japanese atrocities. All horrible and clearly not within the conventions of the term war IMO.

TD
 
Damian, Harry and Rob and OZ,

All well thought out discussion points and excellent debate. The only problem in wartime is the need to minimize the debate to facilitate objectives and goals. The terror aspect cannot be compared directly to national defense or war among nations in terms of ethics. I went to a Jesuit University and took the ethics/morals of the Jesuit. You wouldn't believe some of the ideas spouted out by the Brothers. But in war, these ideals are usually integrated into the pshce of the public before the decision is made.

In the end as in sports, there is simply a winner and a loser. We applaud the righteous and seeth at the wrongdoer.

Love these talks amongst friends and comrades! You all are tops in my book! Mike
 
Louis Badolato said:
Well the @ssholes writing these revisionist books can thank their lucky stars that the goodguys really did win, a the last time I checked the Nazis and the Japs were not real big proponents of free speech. That being said, if I met one of these yahoos in person, I would take a great deal of pleasure in violating their civil rights with my boot!
Click to expand...

Louis,

I couldn't agree with you more.

Carlos
 
Cheers Mike,it certainly is a very interesting thread.Its never easy is it and civilian casualties should be avoided at all times if possible.However we are talking about a war for the very freedom of civilised people against the scourge of Nazism.It was a huge conflict and sadly involved the deaths of millions of innocent people.However i simply will not denounce anyone from the Allied forces for what they had to do.The Nazis had to be wiped off the face of the earth with all their supporters and infrastructure,also and i know this is not very PC but the Germans had to be shown they would not be allowed to cause global misery for a third time.

As i said before we are all partners in peace now.But that peace was earned for all nations (including Germany and Japan)with millions and millions of lives lost.It was total war against a ruthless and vicious regime who started the conflict with no regard for any rights of anyone else whatsoever,we did what we had to do and i'm glad we did,bombing included.

Rob
 
Rob said:
Cheers Mike,it certainly is a very interesting thread.Its never easy is it and civilian casualties should be avoided at all times if possible.However we are talking about a war for the very freedom of civilised people against the scourge of Nazism.It was a huge conflict and sadly involved the deaths of millions of innocent people.However i simply will not denounce anyone from the Allied forces for what they had to do.The Nazis had to be wiped off the face of the earth with all their supporters and infrastructure,also and i know this is not very PC but the Germans had to be shown they would not be allowed to cause global misery for a third time.

As i said before we are all partners in peace now.But that peace was earned for all nations (including Germany and Japan)with millions and millions of lives lost.It was total war against a ruthless and vicious regime who started the conflict with no regard for any rights of anyone else whatsoever,we did what we had to do and i'm glad we did,bombing included.

Rob
Click to expand...

I believe that you are absolutely correct here Rob.
While there can simply be no doubt whatsoever that the systematic destruction of Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin, and especially Dresden (among other cities) was a quite deliberate targeting of the German civilian population during the bombing campaign, I myself prefer to lend my sympathies to the families of the boys in RAF Bomber Command and the 8th Army Airforce who died in the fight against tyranny.
Besides, who are we, as we sit in our comfortable armchairs in the safety of the freedom that was bought by those who laid down their lives during WWII, to imply that what they did might be immoral. Were we there..?? No. Could we have faced the dangers these guys faced on an almost nightly/daily basis..?? I wouldn't want to think too much about that one.
Despite what the revisionists might say, I for one am eternally grateful for the sacrifices of the wartime generation - of whatever Allied nationality.

Best Regards
H
 
tdubel said:
Well, never being one without an opinion :p:eek:, I have often thought about the question you pose and it is a good one regarding the German people. Little background, most of my family heritage is German and I am married to a Jewish gal, so if you read into that, it is a very interesting question. My opinion is that there were definitely German civilians who were in stride with Hitler's beliefs and they are as guilty as the Nazis, however, I do believe there is a large part of the population who was passive and just didn't want to know about nor recognize the atrocity. It is also amazing how engaging Hitler was and how he basically turned neighbors upon neighbors. In general, throughout history, it is fascinating how the common person can be turned into a sheep who just follows the flock, not knowing why or caring about the consequence. Again, "......ignore history, it will repeat itself".

TD
Click to expand...

TD,
I'd like to congratulate you on all your interesting and thought provoking posts in this thread. You just have to look in on this forum to witness some splendid examples of "The Sheep Following The Flock" syndrome.
That comment is not meant as a "Personal Attack" on any individual Members, by the way - or the alleged rather dubious personal habits of Shepherds either. Whatever flicks your switch.....I suppose.

Regards
H
 
Harrytheheid said:
I believe that you are absolutely correct here Rob.
While there can simply be no doubt whatsoever that the systematic destruction of Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin, and especially Dresden (among other cities) was a quite deliberate targeting of the German civilian population during the bombing campaign, I myself prefer to lend my sympathies to the families of the boys in RAF Bomber Command and the 8th Army Airforce who died in the fight against tyranny.
Besides, who are we, as we sit in our comfortable armchairs in the safety of the freedom that was bought by those who laid down their lives during WWII, to imply that what they did might be immoral. Were we there..?? No. Could we have faced the dangers these guys faced on an almost nightly/daily basis..?? I wouldn't want to think too much about that one.
Despite what the revisionists might say, I for one am eternally grateful for the sacrifices of the wartime generation - of whatever Allied nationality.

Best Regards
H
Click to expand...

Superb post Harry,i agree with every word.:):cool:

Rob
 
Harrytheheid said:
TD,
I'd like to congratulate you on all your interesting and thought provoking posts in this thread. You just have to look in on this forum to witness some splendid examples of "The Sheep Following The Flock" syndrome.
That comment is not meant as a "Personal Attack" on any individual Members, by the way - or the alleged rather dubious personal habits of Shepherds either. Whatever flicks your switch.....I suppose.

Regards
H
Click to expand...

What'sa matter H, not having fun in the sun? Take a shower and relax, Kroo.;) Mike
 
1879fanatic said:
What'sa matter H, not having fun in the sun? Take a shower and relax, Kroo.;) Mike
Click to expand...

Not at all Mike...:)
Just contributing some Heid humour to the debate. This one, unlike the rest of my posts here was not meant to be taken at face value.
TD's posts are extremely valid and have great value IMO.

Cheers Mate
H
 
I think Tom, Harry, Rob and Oz have all made some very valid points which, when examined together, set forth some guidelines I think we can all agree with:

1. Where bombing of Civilians is done to shorten a war and ultimately save both military and Civilian lives (such as the Allied bombing campaign against Germany [as Rob said, my sympathies lie with the men of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce, for obvious reasons, my dead uncles being among the foremost] or the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki), this does not constitute a war crime. This does not, however, mean that I do not have a great deal of sympathy for the innocent civilians who died as a result of bombing by either side.

2. Where a legitimate military target is being destroyed, but civilians are also harmed by collateral damage, this is also not a war crime (especially in circumstances, such as the ferry with the heavy water mentioned by Tom, where the timing of the bombing is made to minimize civilian casualties).

3. Bombing of civilians by either military or terrorist forces just for the sake of generating terror (such as the Nazi bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War or Al Queda's actions on 9-11) are a crime against humanity and the participants should be made to face justice.

I think that if the Nations, Governments and people of the world followed these three premises, there would be a lot fewer war crimes, and a lot more survivors of the next conflict.
 
As far as the Axis were concern - German V-1 and V-2 Rockets were NOT used to target military facilities - THEY WERE USED FOR CIVILIAN DESTRUCTION ONLY.

You know - I cant talk about the Japs - I really don't have anything positive to say on the subject or of the veterans from that country.
 
Capitolron said:
As far as the Axis were concern - German V-1 and V-2 Rockets were NOT used to target military facilities - THEY WERE USED FOR CIVILIAN DESTRUCTION ONLY.

You know - I cant talk about the Japs - I really don't have anything positive to say on the subject or of the veterans from that country.
Click to expand...

Very true, and Hitler considered both the V1 and V2 as terror weapons against civilians because that is what they were designed for - unlike allied bombing.
 
Capitolron said:
As far as the Axis were concern - German V-1 and V-2 Rockets were NOT used to target military facilities - THEY WERE USED FOR CIVILIAN DESTRUCTION ONLY.

You know - I cant talk about the Japs - I really don't have anything positive to say on the subject or of the veterans from that country.
Click to expand...

Absolutely,and there you have (if it were needed) a basic difference in the mindset of the two sides and another reason why the Nazi's had to be eradicated like any other desease.

Rob
 
To me it is not fair to judge the morals of Allied bombing, including the A bombs, decades past, in a different context and probably with different values. It was clear at the time what were war crimes and what were not. Yes there was retribution on total war waged by the Axis powers on the Allied countries. I am not really interested in making such judgements, and who am I to make them, who was not born at the time and who is from a country that was not involved in WW2.
Another thing is what I feel: regret for such a tragedy and for the millions of civilians from both sides that got caught in the middle of that tremendous turmoil and died. Did they deserve to die? I could never say Axis civilians «had it coming», however imperfect they might be. What part did they play in their countries waging war against the Allies? What freedom did they have except for the ordinary daily struggle to survive? Did the Japs deserve it more than the Germans? Regret not moral judgement is my point.
Specifically on the A Bombs, a point remains to be eternally debated: were they absolutely necessary to end the war? At the time they were dropped, the Japanese were already trying to negotiate surrender through the Russians. Of course I don't pretend to have the answer and even Historians surely will never have it.


Paulo
 
Interesting comments guys and all have raised valid points. However, the subject originally was based on a particular book but as Brad mentioned back awhile it appears very few have read it. I have already posted my view of that book and although the thread has kept to the generic topic I feel like contributing my 10 cents worth to what is being currently discussed.

Revisionism especially WWII appears to hold a peculiar attraction for a number of our Western authors today which I believe has affected a vast majority of American and British under 30's most of them being taught by our younger academics that the bombing of Dresden etc was absolutely unnecessary and Hiroshima was nothing more than a strategic ploy to frighten Stalin.

I deliberately stated Western authors as you would be hard pressed to find the Russians stating much about the Hitler/Stalin pact or that when the Luftwaffe was bombing England, Russia was sending the Nazis fuel and iron ore. Yet when Germany invaded Russia, Britain sent food and supplies across in ships on those dreaded Russian convoys. They do not write of the murder of millions of German citizens from April through to June 1945 or the mass slaughter of Polish officers or the semi genocide of their own civilians after '45

Likewise the Chinese who now preach that WWII was all about the gallant Mao's partisans but not that they killed 50 million of their own people.

The Japanese are now happy supplying all of us TV's and cars and never mention the millions of Asian civilians they butchered and the utter brutality meted out to Allied POW's

Of course we bombed German and Japanese cities, but this was total war when up to 10,000 innocent civilians a day were being gassed in death camps. The Nazis were rampaging through the Balkans and Western Europe murdering hundreds per week as were the Japanese throughout the Pacific area. And the Nazi boffins and engineers were pressing ahead in a breakneck effort to create ballistic missiles, jet aircraft and other terror weapons. There were very few options in how to stop these monstrous regimes apart from bombing them out of existence. But whatever mistakes and lapses committed by the Allies (and there were many) they all pale into comparison to the savagery of the Axis and the Communists.

I remember a historian stating something on the lines of that if there was any justice in the world we would have the ability to transport our homegrown and severest critics across time and space and put them down in the Warsaw ghetto or the Kwai railroad then flip them on to Omaha beach or place them in an overloaded B-29 taking off from Tinian with the crew on amphetamines to keep them awake for their 15 hour mission over Tokyo-just ordinary guys doing a job of ridding the world of two very evil regimes.

That is why I wear my red poppy every Rememberance day with pride and I wear it for those Allied boys who gave their lives so I can enjoy what I do today. I do not wear it for the Germans Japanese or the Russians but that's because I rarely read or listen to revisionism history.
Reb
 
Last edited:
WOW - and Triple WOW Reb.
What an awesome post....!!!! Probably one of the best I've ever read on this forum.

Thanks a million for expressing what is exactly my own personal stance on these matters in a much more elequent manner than I ever could.

Respects
H
 
VIRIATO said:
To me it is not fair to judge the morals of Allied bombing, including the A bombs, decades past, in a different context and probably with different values. It was clear at the time what were war crimes and what were not. Yes there was retribution on total war waged by the Axis powers on the Allied countries. I am not really interested in making such judgements, and who am I to make them, who was not born at the time and who is from a country that was not involved in WW2.
Another thing is what I feel: regret for such a tragedy and for the millions of civilians from both sides that got caught in the middle of that tremendous turmoil and died. Did they deserve to die? I could never say Axis civilians «had it coming», however imperfect they might be. What part did they play in their countries waging war against the Allies? What freedom did they have except for the ordinary daily struggle to survive? Did the Japs deserve it more than the Germans? Regret not moral judgement is my point.
Specifically on the A Bombs, a point remains to be eternally debated: were they absolutely necessary to end the war? At the time they were dropped, the Japanese were already trying to negotiate surrender through the Russians. Of course I don't pretend to have the answer and even Historians surely will never have it.


Paulo
Click to expand...

The Japanese were trying to negotitate surrender through the Russians but under Japanese terms. They didn't want any Allied occupation of Japan, Japanese war criminals would be tried in the Japanese court system, etc. We rightly demanded unconditional surrender. You can put the blame for A-bombs on Japanese leadership. They had plenty of oppurtunities to surrender. Even after the A-bombs some in the military wanted to keep fighting. The Japnese military were fanatical and placed more value on dying in battle than life.
 
UKReb... Holy Cow! Fabulous authorship.

Now how do we transport across time to the present conflict between (generally) the West and the fringe of Islam? Do the ethics change? Do the gloves come off based on the initial act of war (Twin Towers disappearing with my Uncle Mike and thousands of other who did nothing more than show up at work that beautiful sunny morning)? Can you wage total war against a terror group that is meshed into the population? Should you?

I believe every member on this forum had countrymen suffer on 9/11/01. Why isn't the whole world united against this scurge?

My question marks at the end of my sentences are not for me. Mike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)
Community platform by XenForo® © 2010-2024 XenForo Ltd.
Back
Top