Zimmerit@The Bulge (2 Viewers)

[Firebat]

Hey guys

I am doing some research for The Great Crusade Bulge Episode.

I cant find any evidence of King Tigers at The Bulge with Zimmerit yet TCS did King Tiger #314 Winter with Zimmerit.

Your Thoughts?.........Alex

 

[fmethorst]

Zimmerit was discontinued September 9 1944

s.SS.Pz.Abt.101 had 14 (1 company) Tiger II in Normandy which would have had zimmerit. These tanks were all lost in that battle.

The unit was remamed s.SS.Pz.Abt.501

s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 received the Tiger II prior to the Battle of the Bulge
Oct 1944 - 6
Nov 1944 - 20
Dec 1944 - 8
Dec 1944 - 11 (from s.H.Pz.Abt.509) 9 of these were received by s.H.Pz.Abt.509 in September

Unless some of the Tigers from s.H.Pz.Abt.509 were produced in early September I think we can say that s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 was zimmerit free during the BOB.

The other Bulge unit was s.H.Pz.Abt.506. It received the following Tiger IIs
Aug 1944 - 11
Sep 1944 - 34
Nov 1944 - 2
Dec 1944 - 12

Hey guys

I am doing some research for The Great Crusade Bulge Episode.

I cant find any evidence of King Tigers at The Bulge with Zimmerit yet TCS did King Tiger #314 Winter with Zimmerit.

Your Thoughts?.........Alex

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hey guys

I am doing some research for The Great Crusade Bulge Episode.

I cant find any evidence of King Tigers at The Bulge with Zimmerit yet TCS did King Tiger #314 Winter with Zimmerit.

Your Thoughts?.........Alex

Your reference is to CS Porsche Tiger #314 with Zimmerit and whitewash. I don't think CS claimed this tank was at the bulge? But It did exist. The 1st and 3rd Kompanies of Schwere Pz. Abt. 503 were each equipped with 12 Porsche Turret King Tigers. S.Pz.Abt. 503 fought in Normandy and later in 1945 in Budapest with winter camo. Two of the King Tigers that fought in Normandy and made it to Budapest/Eastern Germany in winter 1945 were from the 3rd Kompanie. One of them was 314 "Anneliese". It certainly had zimmerit and 3 colour camo and was whitewashed in winter 1944/1945. I have photos of exactly what the tank looked like. I don't think TCS specifies Anneliesse was a Bulge tank and I don't think Schwere Pz.Abt. 503 was at the Bulge. Nor is the CS model whitewashed yet. But the camo and whitewash are correct for Budapest/E. Germany in 1945..

Here is a photo of Anneliesse. The tank name, the Porsche turret, the zimmerit and the whitewash are all visible.


Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Thanks Terry, I forgot that CS 314 was a s.H.Pz.Abt.503/FHH Porsche-Turm. s.H.Pz.Abt.FHH was definitely not at the BOB.

I've posted this a couple times in regards to the Porsche-Turms

The Porsche turret was mounted on the first 50 Tiger II chassis (Fgst.Nr. V1-V3 and 280001-280047). Fgst.Nr. 280048 was produced in June 1944 which means all Tiger IIs shipped prior to June had the Porsche turret.This includes:

Fgst.Nr. V2 is the Tiger II (Porsche-Turm) currently on display at Bovington. This tank does not have zimmerit and was found by the British at Henschel's test area in Haustenbeck.

I don't have information on what happened to Fgst.Nr.V1 and V3.

March 1944
Pz.Lehr.Div. - 5 (Fgst.Nr.280001-280005). These Tigers all had zimmerit.

April 1944
Waffenamt Prüfwesen 6 (Weapons Proof Department 6) - 3 (Porsche-Turm)
Ersatz-Heer (Replacement Army) - 4 (Porsche-Turm)

May 1944
Waffenamt Prüfwesen 6 (Weapons Proof Department 6) - 3 (Porsche-Turm)
Ersatz-Heer (Replacement Army) - 4 (Porsche-Turm)

That's 22.


June 1944
1./s.H.Pz.Abt.503 (1st company 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) - 12 (Porsche-Turm). These all had zimmerit.

July 1944
3./s.H.Pz.Abt.503 (3rd company 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) - 12 (Porsche-Turm), 2 (Serien-Turm). These all had zimmerit. Two of the Tiger IIs (Porsche-Turm) were left behind when the unit deployed to the front due to technical problems.


So far that accounts for 46 of 50


s.H.Pz.Abt.503 (503rd Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) was renamed s.H.Pz.Abt.FHH (Feldhernnhalle Heavy Tank Battalion (Army))

September 1944
s.H.Pz.Abt.FHH (Feldhernnhalle Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) - 43 (Serien-Turm), 2 (Porsche-Turm).The two Tiger IIs (Porsche-Turm) are the same tanks left behind by the unit in August. Both of these tanks ended up in 3rd company (Tiger 314 and 334) and were shipped to Hungary with the rest of the unit in Oct. 1944. I believe these are likely the only two Tigers with the Porsche turret to receive whitewash.

s.H.Pz.Abt.506 (506th Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) - This unit was in the process of refitting with 45 Tiger II (Serien-Turm) when it was ordered to deploy to the Arnhem area to deal with the Allied operation there. It borrowed a number of Tiger II (Porsche-Turm) from the Paderborn training facility during this time.



So we are left with 4 Tiger II (Porsche-Turm) unaccounted for. My suspicion is they ended up with Wa.Prüf 6 and/or the Ersatz-Heer (replacement army).

 

[Firebat]

Thanks guys

I drove myself crazy for about 4 hours yesterday but I actually found a King Tiger at the Bulge with Zimmerit.


Concord Books The Battle Of the Bulge 7045 Page 6. American Ordinance guys recovering a King Tiger on Dec 15th a day before the Battle began sPZ.Abt.506 number 2+11. I saw the same pic in another book also.

Any additional comments on this.....

If it is accurate, it provides for an excellent scene. I will re-number it. And there is a excellent scene for The Bulge.

 

[fmethorst]

Thanks guys

I drove myself crazy for about 4 hours yesterday but I actually found a King Tiger at the Bulge with Zimmerit.


Concord Books The Battle Of the Bulge 7045 Page 6. American Ordinance guys recovering a King Tiger on Dec 15th a day before the Battle began sPZ.Abt.506 number 2+11. I saw the same pic in another book also.

Any additional comments on this.....

If it is accurate, it provides for an excellent scene. I will re-number it. And there is a excellent scene for The Bulge.

This would make sense based on the delivery dates.H.Pz.Abt.506 received its Tiger IIs. Is your picture of a Tiger II with Porsche-Turm?

 

[Firebat]

This would make sense based on the delivery dates.H.Pz.Abt.506 received its Tiger IIs. Is your picture of a Tiger II with Porsche-Turm?

No Frank it is a Henschel !

 

[kilted vampire]

Your reference is to CS Porsche Tiger #314 with Zimmerit and whitewash. I don't think CS claimed this tank was at the bulge? But It did exist. The 1st and 3rd Kompanies of Schwere Pz. Abt. 503 were each equipped with 12 Porsche Turret King Tigers. S.Pz.Abt. 503 fought in Normandy and later in 1945 in Budapest with winter camo. Two of the King Tigers that fought in Normandy and made it to Budapest/Eastern Germany in winter 1945 were from the 3rd Kompanie. One of them was 314 "Anneliese". It certainly had zimmerit and 3 colour camo and was whitewashed in winter 1944/1945. I have photos of exactly what the tank looked like. I don't think TCS specifies Anneliesse was a Bulge tank and I don't think Schwere Pz.Abt. 503 was at the Bulge. Nor is the CS model whitewashed yet. But the camo and whitewash are correct for Budapest/E. Germany in 1945..

Here is a photo of Anneliesse. The tank name, the Porsche turret, the zimmerit and the whitewash are all visible.
View attachment 88670

Terry

Once again Terry comes through. We should give you a new title OberPanzerMeister!

 

[Firebat]

Gentlemen

Regarding a Porsche King Tiger with Zim.

I have info some served around Aachen with Porsche turrets, can anyone confirem this.



Also Tiger 311 / 503 Von Rosens tank tank rolled off a flatcar and overturned

Did this Tiger have a Porsche turret

It was said to be recovered by the Americans, can anyone confirm this.


Can anyone place a Porsche Tiger with Zim against the Americans in any other action


Thanks in advance
Alex

 

[fmethorst]

Gentlemen

Regarding a Porsche King Tiger with Zim.

I have info some served around Aachen with Porsche turrets, can anyone confirem this.



Also Tiger 311 / 503 Von Rosens tank tank rolled off a flatcar and overturned

Did this Tiger have a Porsche turret

It was said to be recovered by the Americans, can anyone confirm this.


Can anyone place a Porsche Tiger with Zim against the Americans in any other action


Thanks in advance
Alex

Aachen Porsche Turret Tiger II - Do you have an additional information such as which unit it was supposedly operating with?

Tiger 311 / 503 - 3./s.H.Pz.Abt.503 (3rd company 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) - 12 (Porsche-Turm), 2 (Serien-Turm). The 2 series (Henschel) turrets were on tanks 300 and 301 so it is highly probable that 311 had the Porsche turret. The book Tigers in Combat has two different entries re the fate of 311, blown up Aug 12 44 between Sezenne and Beauvais, captured by the US Aug 13 44. Perhaps the Americans captured the wreck.

Frank

 

[Firebat]

Aachen Porsche Turret Tiger II - Do you have an additional information such as which unit it was supposedly operating with?

Tiger 311 / 503 - 3./s.H.Pz.Abt.503 (3rd company 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion (Army)) - 12 (Porsche-Turm), 2 (Serien-Turm). The 2 series (Henschel) turrets were on tanks 300 and 301 so it is highly probable that 311 had the Porsche turret. The book Tigers in Combat has two different entries re the fate of 311, blown up Aug 12 44 between Sezenne and Beauvais, captured by the US Aug 13 44. Perhaps the Americans captured the wreck.

Frank

Aachen...I have a pic of one Porsche turret with zim, supposedly from the 506th being shipped to the war zone near Aachen. If this helps I could use a tank number. Even if it is not Aachen I am looking for US engagement with a Prorsche Zim King Tiger.

311 fell off the flatcar on August 11th and caught fire, I have a pic from the rear that is why I cant identify the turret. The fire didnt seem to destroy the tank.


Alex

 

[fmethorst]

Aachen...I have a pic of one Porsche turret with zim, supposedly from the 506th being shipped to the war zone near Aachen. If this helps I could use a tank number. Even if it is not Aachen I am looking for US engagement with a Prorsche Zim King Tiger.

311 fell off the flatcar on August 11th and caught fire, I have a pic from the rear that is why I cant identify the turret. The fire didnt seem to destroy the tank.


Alex

Is this the pic you are refering to. If so I believe these Tiger IIs are destined for the 506th during the Arnhem engagement. I always approach captions skeptically and look for corroborating information.

 

[Firebat]

Is this the pic you are refering to. If so I believe these Tiger IIs are destined for the 506th during the Arnhem engagement. I always approach captions skeptically and look for corroborating information.

Yes Frank that is the pic....To simplify things a bit, I just need proof of a US engagement with a Porsche / Zim King Tiger. Didnt think this would be that difficult. I bought the CS 314 Winter Tiger with Zim and I want to try to change it. Maybe I could place in a Arnhem scene if I can't come up with a US senario. Alex

 

[fmethorst]

How about 1.s.Pz.Kp.(Fkl) (formerly s.Pz.Kp.316) initially attached to Panzer Lehr. They had 5 Tiger II (Porsche-Turm). They arrived in Chateaudun Aug 13 and were all abandoned/destroyed by their crew between Aug 15-18.

http://tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=50&sid=707ea4ff201974917c8bb6cb69f605f6

Frank

 

[Firebat]

How about 1.s.Pz.Kp.(Fkl) (formerly s.Pz.Kp.316) initially attached to Panzer Lehr. They had 5 Tiger II (Porsche-Turm). They arrived in Chateaudun Aug 13 and were all abandoned/destroyed by their crew between Aug 15-18.

http://tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=50&sid=707ea4ff201974917c8bb6cb69f605f6

Frank

Thanks Frank......Communicating like this adds a higher level of enjoyment to the hobby for me. If you come up with any other ideas LMK.

I am currently working on the CS Tiger and so far the Tiger is responding well.

You and I do the temporary dios. This one and several to follow will take a new direction, being premanent, with possibly the vehicles and figures actually being attached (Stuck in mud etc.). I have been waiting to do something like this for a long while.

Looking forward to your next project, Normandy was a killer. I will also join you in some FL scenes sometime in the future. Alex

 

[MikeHock]

Great threads. Really like the photos.

 

[Firebat]

I have been threatening to start reworking a TCS piece for a long time. With the workload of Battle Scene Productions behind me I am finally getting to projects I had planned.

As I stated one of my combinaions will be TGM figures with TCS AFV's, This will be Tiger 314 "Anneliese" in Hungary 1945. Which I will mate with TGM figures in a scene.


So far I gave the Tiger a dark wash to get rid of the "Pastel" look and then a whitewash. The sides of the turret have nothing done yet as I have to put on the decals. I will hand paint "Anneliese" on the gun.


As you can see fender panels were removed and the gaps filled and rusted. Some panels were made to look like they were damaged.


There is much more to be done I will keep you posted. Alex

 

[cnq]

I have been threatening to start reworking a TCS piece for a long time. With the workload of Battle Scene Productions behind me I am finally getting to projects I had planned.

As I stated one of my combinaions will be TGM figures with TCS AFV's, This will be Tiger 314 "Anneliese" in Hungary 1945. Which I will mate with TGM figures in a scene.


So far I gave the Tiger a dark wash to get rid of the "Pastel" look and then a whitewash. The sides of the turret have nothing done yet as I have to put on the decals. I will hand paint "Anneliese" on the gun.


As you can see fender panels were removed and the gaps filled and rusted. Some panels were made to look like they were damaged.


There is much more to be done I will keep you posted. Alex

Very nice work. Can't wait to see the finished tank

 

[Mitch]

Alex...

Nice work. I have plenty of pics of Anneliese from one of the crew who served in her at the time. Which references are you using for the repaint/conversion?
Cheers
Mitch

 

[joesgis]

I have been threatening to start reworking a TCS piece for a long time. With the workload of Battle Scene Productions behind me I am finally getting to projects I had planned.

As I stated one of my combinaions will be TGM figures with TCS AFV's, This will be Tiger 314 "Anneliese" in Hungary 1945. Which I will mate with TGM figures in a scene.


So far I gave the Tiger a dark wash to get rid of the "Pastel" look and then a whitewash. The sides of the turret have nothing done yet as I have to put on the decals. I will hand paint "Anneliese" on the gun.


As you can see fender panels were removed and the gaps filled and rusted. Some panels were made to look like they were damaged.


There is much more to be done I will keep you posted. Alex

Alex, That looks amazing!! I have a CS KT in a box somewhere.....now the wheels are turning...

Thanks for sharing your work!
Joe