Zimmerit@The Bulge (2 Viewers)

[Phantom Warrior]

You must mean this photo. That was taken at a different time - no snow on the ground. The photos showing the name were taken with deep snow on the ground.



Terry

 

[OzDigger]

Oz...
Your not reading what I said. it was not about these pictures the Whitewashed ones anyway which, have been published in many books etc. I mentioned that many pictures they have on their site are factually incorrect and, with new research or, better I should say, this has been proven. As I mentioned I have spoken to the crew and many survivors of this unit and, members of the unit. I am happy with the reliability of my sources of information being that it is primary and not, secondary in nature.

Terry...

These pics all have the name on its quite clear in these pics what it is. The main one where they have undertaken a large amount of repair is the one where the side guards are not on and the one probably where Oz states to Alex no guards were on the AFV!! The dates of these pics are quite accurately known before some of the battles and areas they went and, later pics of this unit show guards back on. They would have been removed to aid the work they were undertaking.

So long as Alex uses the AFV in a east setting the depiction is accurate
Mitch

Mitch; I read what you wrote, your inference was that the photos I was refering to were not reliable. Then you say you have the only 'reliable' photos, but of course you never post them on the forum :rolleyes2:

As for the track guards, check the other photos and you will see they are missing (except one) on the LHS of the tank as well, you know, the side that wasn't being repaired.

 

[OzDigger]

You must mean this photo. That was taken at a different time - no snow on the ground. The photos showing the name were taken with deep snow on the ground.

View attachment 120839

Terry

That is irrelevant, the name could be on the other side in that photo, which is what I think is the case. Maybe Mitch will post the 'reliable' photos he has to clear the matter up. Also note lack of track-guards.

 

[Firebat]

That is irrelevant, the name could be on the other side in that photo, which is what I think is the case. Maybe Mitch will post the 'reliable' photos he has to clear the matter up. Also note lack of track-guards.

I can see where I could have taken all of the left side fenders off, which I could still do, but it looks good with a few on so I will take the artistic license on that one. Thanks to all for othe research so far.

BUT could there be a rear fender on, that we cant see in the pic above?...... What about the Right side?...... Did they take them off for repair at this moment in time ?

Is the above pic definitely Anneliese, there was one other Porsche turret Tiger in the area? Alex

 

[Mitch]

Alex..

PM sent
Mitch

I can see where I could have taken all of the left side fenders off, which I could still do, but it looks good with a few on so I will take the artistic license on that one. Thanks to all for othe research so far.

BUT could there be a rear fender on, that we cant see in the pic above?...... What about the Right side?...... Did they take them off for repair at this moment in time ?

Is the above pic definitely Anneliese, there was one other Porsche turret Tiger in the area? Alex

 

[OzDigger]

I can see where I could have taken all of the left side fenders off, which I could still do, but it looks good with a few on so I will take the artistic license on that one. Thanks to all for othe research so far.

BUT could there be a rear fender on, that we cant see in the pic above?...... What about the Right side?...... Did they take them off for repair at this moment in time ?

Is the above pic definitely Anneliese, there was one other Porsche turret Tiger in the area? Alex

Alex, you are doing the build so feel free to use whatever number of fenders you want as they were relatively easy to add and remove. However imo it would not have had many if any 'fenders' on it at that late stage but I agree that the model does look better with a few added as you mentioned. From what I have read the pic is of 'Anneliese' and the Kommander has mentioned this on the Panzerarchiv forum, but it's usually in German so not the easiest to understand ^&confuse ^&grin

Do you intend to add the retro fitted track carrying lugs (and spares) to the turret which the CS Winter version lacks?

I look forward to seeing more pics of your build.

Btw heres a link to some decals which may assist you: http://www.peddinghaus-decals.de/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/9e870304df67c8fbfa48540fb53562e2.png

 

[Firebat]

Alex, you are doing the build so feel free to use whatever number of fenders you want as they were relatively easy to add and remove. However imo it would not have had many if any 'fenders' on it at that late stage but I agree that the model does look better with a few added as you mentioned. From what I have read the pic is of 'Anneliese' and the Kommander has mentioned this on the Panzerarchiv forum, but it's usually in German so not the easiest to understand ^&confuse ^&grin

Do you intend to add the retro fitted track carrying lugs (and spares) to the turret which the CS Winter version lacks?

I look forward to seeing more pics of your build.

Btw heres a link to some decals which may assist you: http://www.peddinghaus-decals.de/co.../product/9e870304df67c8fbfa48540fb53562e2.png

Oz

The Anneliese is a mystery, actually there seems to be a controversey as to the numbers, some show red and some show black as in the decal set you sent. The red looked good so I used them. But this is excellent and to me what the hobby is all about...History... as accurate as possible. Alex

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Oz

The Anneliese is a mystery, actually there seems to be a controversey as to the numbers, some show red and some show black as in the decal set you sent. The red looked good so I used them. But this is excellent and to me what the hobby is all about...History... as accurate as possible. Alex

Colours of numbers and even the numbers themselves were changed during the war. A special set of unit insignia wer put on the AFVs just for Kursk.

Terry

 

[OzDigger]

Oz

The Anneliese is a mystery, actually there seems to be a controversey as to the numbers, some show red and some show black as in the decal set you sent. The red looked good so I used them. But this is excellent and to me what the hobby is all about...History... as accurate as possible. Alex

I recall reading that the Kommander said they were never Red, which makes sense as Red would be more obvious on a battlefield, and who wants that considering they went to the trouble of painting the tank in camo colors. But I do agree the Red looks better, so why not. I mainly posted that link for the Annerliese name, much easier than writing :wink2:

 

[OzDigger]

Alex, but remember what I said in my recent pm about this, at the end of the day it's your build, paint it how you want mate.

 

[OzDigger]

Alex, I couldn't refind the post on Panzer archiv (translated to English - sort of) regarding the color of the lettering. He may have been refering to when the tank was in France rather than the Eastern front - who knows?

Whatever the opinions of experts etc, I personally prefer the rendition below which was obviously based on the pic Terry provided earlier (except maybe for the track guards) :wink2:

What do you think of it?

 

[Mitch]

I always thought German unit numbers were mainly for the German behalf for recognition of AFV's. Considering they used large lettering on many AFV's varying from white, blue yellow and a mix of colours on top of camo blocks of red would not be as unnatural or, would stand out anymore than any other colour.

I was also under the impression that when fully painted white wash they were painted black on top several book pictures of Tiger tanks in Hungary have this shown as well as some other sources.

Considering we are talking only Eastern front/Hungary and not the difference in unit numbers from one front to another Alex choose to go with a variant that has whitewash heavily worn off which, did happen and, is also a way to show detailing etc more than just a white background.

My personal preference is a full whitewashed AFV with some coming off I also prefer Skirts off but, having also done several of the CS tigers as specific commissions people like different versions
Mitch

 

[OzDigger]

Alex, here's some relevant information from the Armorama website which is a handy reference for info on modeling.

"Anneliese of the 3rd company Pz.Abt 503/FHH was one of the two (erroneously mentioned) Porsche-Turm Tigers that had become disabled due to transmission problems while at Mailly-Le-Camp in August of 1944. These vehicles both underwent repairs and update modifications prior to being returned to active service in late 1944. Both these vehicles wore the same type of camoflage as the rest of the Zimmerit coated Serien-Turm Tigers of the Ist, 2nd and 3rd company of Dark Yellow (RAL 7028), Olive Green (RAL 6003) and Red Brown (RAL 8017).

During the winter of 1944/1945 the vehicles of Pz. Abt.503/FHH (Feldherrnhalde/FHH as of January 1945) were partially whitewashed with the tactical numbers (Black with White outline) for better visablity being reapplied in Black only. In January 1945 prior to being moved into Hungary extra track links began to be carried on the 503 tank turrets which effectively covered both the tactical numbers and crosses on some of the vehicles. In Tigers in Combat 1 there is a photograph on page 178 of one of the two Porsche-Turm Tigers, Tiger 314 or 334 still in its winter whitewash camoflage coat without any tactical numbers showing. The possiblity exist that the tactical numbers were painted on the front side of the turret and not on the rear side of the turret as depicted on some publications artitistic graphic renderings of this unit?"

Anyway, I'll leave you guys to discuss this build from now on as I'm not into these finer details, have enough probs with scale/sizing ^&grin

 

[Firebat]

Alex, but remember what I said in my recent pm about this, at the end of the day it's your build, paint it how you want mate.

I am always torn though, I have seen the black and it is most likely correct. I spent hours on those decals getting them to settle into the zim. We will chalk this one up to experience. My next project I will post on my site from the ground up and welcome all imput.

I think it is going to be the last King Tigers in Berlin.

Thnaks again for your imput
Alex

 

[Mitch]

Alex...

The fall of Berlin offers a lot of possibilities as armour was painted in a variety of colours that were available from red primer to camo to a mix of both to some examples that have been shown and proven to be Grey at least one Panther anyway. It will be interesting to see what you come up with as a number of AFV's also had graffiti placed upon them in whitewash in defiance of the Russians and as a moral booster to the civilians. so, the possibilities are endless.
Mitch