A Real Reality Check (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

tenth of june....

I agree with some of what you are saying and, that some have been able to have a [pop at K&C for the price who may not like the company however, what your last paragraph misses when you say buy it if you like it don't if you don't etc is that with the constant rising costs that we are experiencing monthly its not a case of people not liking it its the fact that the hobby is pricing out a lot of long term collectors who have money to spend but, are being squeezed out of a hobby they have been in for many years by the very manufacturers they have supported for years.

Thats being overlooked in all the price hysteria. We all know materials etc are going up but, this is quite a price hike for the average collector along with other increases among other ranges. You talk of £1000 and £6000 items as if that is the norm and the norm for collectors to buy and equate it with the Typhoon but, IMO that proves nothin g about the average collector voicing concerns. Its certainly IMO not garbage for collectors on a forum about toy soldiers to discuss their concerns about these prices and most of what I have read has been far from garbage and not from the usual suspects. You say the Typhoon is affordable, maybe to you, but, not to many people who are commenting. Now time will tell whether this will sell out as many of the other poly warbirds including SL's have not and, are more affordable one would conclude it may be around for a while.
Mitch

Oh dear, once again there really has been some major "garbage" spoken on this forum!

I collect K&C, with a small splattering of GNM, CS and Britains. If I had my way I would but a lot more than I do but I can't afford it - it's as plain and simple as it sounds!

3-4 years ago I would order a great deal now I pick and chose - it's simple economics. I don't get heated up about it, it's just reality. I look forward to the monthly offerings with as much relish as I used to, but I don't necessarily buy anything.

I would love to purchase the recent Nile figures, Napoleonic Infantry, the recent Robert the Bruce Offering and ofcourse the Typhoon and some new RAF figures. I would also like to buy the FL "Green Jackets", Figarti AC, and some FL mounted personalities. Out of all of those listed, I will have to make decisions on which I purchase, and if my wife finds out it will be a very small list! But this situation hasn't just arrived, its happened since I have been collecting. Those "golden" days of great affordability have gone, and will probably never return; we are now blessed with many excellent companies with too many offerings (lets hope this continues). We should be content with what is presently offered.

I have read people's comments concerning the Typhoon price and they are fairly tedious. Britains is offering a Nile boat for over a $1000! The FL site has people creating a British infantry square - have you any idea how much that would cost! Figarti offered a HMS Victory at what price? And remember, it was the most dissimilar offering I have ever seen.

The Typhoon is affordable if you adapt your spending patterns/options - it's what I will be hoping to do imminently. Moreover, if you honestly believe that K&C will suffer because some will not buy this AC then you are "business-wise" completely nieve!

Fellow collectors, this remains a "TOY SOLDIER" collecting hobby - some of you should remember this. Buy what you wish when you can afford it; enough with the conspiracy theories - they are utterly ridiculous; if you don't want to buy it, don't buy it, it's plain and simple. For myself, its a yes from me - I have always loved this AC, and as I am a serving RAF Officer its awfully hard to resist!

 

[tenth of june]

Hi Mitch

I am an infrequent submitter to this forum, but I don't mind discussing a point or two.

I can still recall when and where I first saw K&C; if you recall they used to be sold in Hamleys of London. I bought a D-Day Sherman, and 4 figures (I didn't purchase the Humphrey Bogart inspired Grant tank but should have took the opportunity). Back then, to me they were expensive, but since I had not seen anything like them they were affordable.

Time and experiences have changed; I remember the Pound Sterling boom days when it was worth 2 dollars. It was a joy to buy K&C from US distributors, but those days are gone and in this economic climate are unlikely to return.

Money is tight, but not just for collectors. I doubt K&C need any extra money, so I don't think profit is their "only" business ethic. Afterall, by just considering the 500 Typhoons available, that's a return of over $150000; that is from one single offering. When you say they have not sold out, they have form K&C; the real pressure is faced by the distributors.

Some collectors will obviously struggle - I have and that's why this year I have only purchased 2 AC, 1 tank and 5 figures; it all costs money. If you recall from my selections of buys that I would like to purchase, it would come to many thousands. I simply cannot afford it, well actually I can if I wish to become single again but I am sure you can see where I am going with that one. I do sympathise with people who say its too expensive, but I do like the Typhoon, and it remains one of my favourite AC. Other acquisitions will simply have to be shelved to make way for it. I really am no different to others on this forum. It is affordable to me because, I will not buy much more this year.

This certainly doesn't stop my enjoyment form either reading forum comments or anticipating K&C, FL, Figarti, or other new offerings. My collecting days have completely changed, but I still love the hobby even though I don't buy as much as I would like.

There are many issues that have arose from this price increase, and many more that haven't been covered. I notice Mitch that you are from Old Blighty - have you worked out just how much we will pay for K&C products if you order them in the UK? That is a real issue, and one which gets very little attention, look below:

NA 228 Mounted officer $142
AK 84 Panzerjager 1 $286
DD152 M7 Priest without crew $364
RAF 29 Bedford $403
RAF 30 Typhoon $558

At these prices, no wonder I order in moderation form our US friends

Mtch, if you want to continue discussions, before I open other hornets nests, email a personal message and we can discuss things further.

Cheers,

and keep collecting......

 

[sammy719]

Well time to throw in my tuppence worth, as I mentioned on CTS forum, I will enjoy collecting in this hobby as long as I can, when it gets to a point of being to much for a set (haven't set my ceiling price) or a individual soldier or tank, then I'll push all my chips to the middle of the table and call it a day, (hopefully it doesn't come to that) I know collectors are upset and some will quit all together which is a shame, hopefully over the next year or so things will become more stable and pricing will even out with K&C, but it seems every month for sometime now, there is a excitement about all the new dispatches for about a day then the prices are announced and the wild fire threads start about pricing, but hang in there K&C fellows, sooner or later it will get better...Sammy

 

[HAWKEYE]

well time to throw in my tuppence worth, as i mentioned on cts forum, i will enjoy collecting in this hobby as long as i can, when it gets to a point of being to much for a set (haven't set my ceiling price) or a individual soldier or tank, then i'll push all my chips to the middle of the table and call it a day, (hopefully it doesn't come to that) i know collectors are upset and some will quit all together which is a shame, hopefully over the next year or so things will become more stable and pricing will even out with k&c, but it seems every month for sometime now, there is a excitement about all the new dispatches for about a day then the prices are announced and the wild fire threads start about pricing, but hang in there k&c fellows, sooner or later it will get better...sammy

i can only hope, increased pricing killed the baseball card hobby, that is why i got into 20mm figures, then toy soldiers. Maybe i should try re-enacting

 

[IXEC]

It all right saying that but for the extra increase in cost there not been a increase in detail, in the Uk now the Figarti He 219 & Hawker Typhoon are at the same price but the Figarti plane is miles better in detail come with all the radar aerials & for the money they charge it should do , the K&C one look good but to me it not worth £350.00 and does not have the same level of detail , if you look at a photo of a real hawker Typhoon the rivets don't stand out but on the K&C one they stand out way to much & was the same on the Me 262 & is a cheap was of adding detail , I'm not having a go at K&C & I'm not stopping anyone else for buying it but this is how I see it ok .:smile2:

Good post . . .

 

[The Military Workshop]

Hi Guys,

I first read this thread at about 3 posts and just caught up.

My opinion (a reminder I have been a K&C dealer for 10 years^&grin) :

a) Those who were buying K&C when a vehicle was US$89 could probably afford all the releases of say WWII items. In those days there was less competition / variety
for their $'s. Now collectors have far more variety to choose from with Britains, CS, TG, Figarti, FL, Jenkins etc. The same has happened in the pre 1900's ranges where the variety is probably 4 x what it was 5 years ago.

Hard decisions have to be made. I was talking to a forum member only today and said that if a new person entered my shop and had a interest to start collecting the problem would be what to collect (ie. Lighthorse, Naps, Zulus, WWII etc etc). I have some collectors who buy a figure a week but I don't recall any whining about the things they are not buying.

b) When the Typhoon was initially announced I had a number of people pre-order it. At that time I thought it might be about $300 (based on comments on this forum). After I knew price was $369 I was concerned some of those who had pre-ordered might cancel. Not one has. Although the collector who is buying two Typhoons has asked that I hold the 2nd one for a while as he wants to buy other items as well and obviously I will do so. Another is selling his Hurricane so he can buy the Typhoon. Having said that I expect to sell less Typhoons than I did Spitfires (note Spitfire pilot was a Kiwi which was a plus in my market).

c) Regarding being "nickel and dimed" a few years ago K&C cut back on the crew coming out with a vehicle so as to keep down the cost. The new Priest comes with a figure that can be inside or out of the vehicle in a non combat situation. Some may just prefer the vehicle, others may prefer full crew. It is your choice. I think there would be more complaints if it came with 3 full figures and the obvious extra cost. A clear case of K&C can't please everybody.

d) A suggestion was made by Al/ Lancer that the number of releases per month should be reduced. So does this mean he wants less choice ? It reminded me of a post a while ago in another thread where it was suggested a brand should reduce the value of its monthly releases to match the poster's monthly TS budget !!! I did not comment when I saw that post but I thought it was hilarious.

e) I won't go into it again in detail but I always enjoy the comparisons with brands that have gone out of business (ie. 20th Century). I am not sure K&C will want to emulate a brand that went bust.

f) As a dealer I thought the August releases were the best for a long time. We have ;

i) 3 Ancient Egypt items (I had been waiting for another Cleo for a while)
ii) a great Medieval / Scottish set (that some collectors who have not previously bought Medieval are interested in)
iii) 5 colourful Naps in Egypt items.
iv) An AK Panzerjager and 6 figure items (8 figs).
and v) A Typhoon and 6 figure items, some of which are suitable for any RAF display even without the Typhoon.

By providing the variety K&C has more collectors will have something that might interest them.

But what did this great variety of releases get as a response in way of comment ?

90% of the posts seem to have been from the people who are complaining that they can not afford the Typhoon. Not only that but some have made their same point repeatedly in more than one thread.

I am so lucky my shop collectors don't react this way when something comes out that is too expensive for them. I do not know what would happen when the Britains Nile Gun Boat comes in.

I have shop displays that are worth $2 - 3,000 but I have never had a customer say "I can not afford that". They just buy what they like and are happy with their purchase.

Now in case you have missed the point K&C just announced one of their best ever month of releases. At the the risk of being called biased becuase I am a dealer and a friend of Andy I think it was a fantastic group of releases.

So you guys can keep going "woe is me" as you are entitled to do. However I will just repeat what I said in an email to Andy and say he did a great job with what he announced for next month.

Regards
Brett

PS Best post so far has been by 10th of June. Summed it up well.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

i can only hope, increased pricing killed the baseball card hobby, that is why i got into 20mm figures, then toy soldiers. Maybe i should try re-enacting

I can go you one further. Start collecting money in the bank.It would be a fun hobby. The more that you put in the higher your balance gets !!!! :wink2: But then again there is something so appealing to our addictive hobby. It is hard to ignore the quality of products currently being put out !

 

[lancer]

Hi Brett. As to your point "d", The suggestion was more of a frustration thing, what with the huge amount of choice we customers are getting. No way to keep up with even the one or two lines one might collect. I hardly expect that a manufacturer would heed such a suggestion. It was from the viewpoint of someone who likes so many different lines and is hopelessly overwhelmed with what to purchase. Reducing choice is not the solution. And actually, it wasn't suggested by me, only endorsed. -- Al

 

[thebritfarmer]

I think people look at the forum as a place to vent. A place to voice your opinions from 'behind the mask" as they say. The internet provides great anonymity.

Everything is going up in price as we all know. Do you walk into the gas station and complain to the clerk? I know I don't but we all moan about the prices. Do you moan at the cost of groceries to the cashier probably not either. I think it is the same with toy soldiers.

Brett said he has never heard a customer say how expensive things were, that doesn't mean they weren't thinking it. I have looked at items in a store and thought to myself I am not paying that and guess what I didn't. I didn't kick up a fuss in the store either.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Military Workshop, Great comments. Pretty much in my opinion everything which you stated is true and reality. {bravo}}

 

[Peter Reuss]

Not everyone can have shopping moments like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYIHLUxzRr8

 

[Thompyt]

I think people look at the forum as a place to vent. A place to voice your opinions from 'behind the mask" as they say. The internet provides great anonymity.

Everything is going up in price as we all know. Do you walk into the gas station and complain to the clerk? I know I don't but we all moan about the prices. Do you moan at the cost of groceries to the cashier probably not either. I think it is the same with toy soldiers.

Brett said he has never heard a customer say how expensive things were, that doesn't mean they weren't thinking it. I have looked at items in a store and thought to myself I am not paying that and guess what I didn't. I didn't kick up a fuss in the store either.

No, I would not moan at the cashier. The cashier does not do the pricing. You go to management. Ostensibly, this forum is read by K&C.

 

[jazzeum]

That's what you call a real, real, real reality check! :rolleyes2:^&grin

 

[Rutledge]

No, I would not moan at the cashier. The cashier does not do the pricing. You go to management. Ostensibly, this forum is read by K&C.

So, when buying a car, do you communicate directly with the manufacturer about their prices? Do you contact farmers when tomatoes or grapes are seeing increases? Do you reach out to Ralph Lauren, the man, when looking for a new shirt so you can admonish HIM for charging "too much"?

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Not everyone can have shopping moments like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYIHLUxzRr8

Nice one, Hilarious ! {bravo}}

 

[Thompyt]

So, when buying a car, do you communicate directly with the manufacturer about their prices? Do you contact farmers when tomatoes or grapes are seeing increases? Do you reach out to Ralph Lauren, the man, when looking for a new shirt so you can admonish HIM for charging "too much"?

Nope, I see the manager first. Why contact the farmers? They don't price the produce. No clue on Ralph Lauren, I don't conciously buy HIS products.

If required I could go the producer. Although if you really want to get into the prices to make this happen...... Not a viable option.

 

[Rutledge]

Nope, I see the manager first. .

And how does that work out for you? Massive discounts and apologies for seeking "excessive profits"? Hmmmm.... {sm3} Now then, SECOND, you go to the manufacturer?

Why contact the farmers? They don't price the produce. No clue on Ralph Lauren, I don't conciously buy HIS products. .

Sure they do. And farmers sell their produce for the HIGHEST price they can get, the cads. :wink2:

You do realize there is high correlation between cost and price, I presume....

If required I could go the producer. Although if you really want to get into the prices to make this happen...... Not a viable option .

Actions speak louder than words. If K&C sells out their production, guess what? The price discussion is moot. I repeat from before: "Only real money buys whiskey".

Note: If ever somebody comes to me and complains about price, and they are a loyal and worthy client, I will listen. If they are not, I (may be) am polite but most likely unmoved. It just makes good business sense.

Also, it helps to run a business to understand these things.

 

[Thompyt]

And how does that work out for you? Massive discounts and apologies for seeking "excessive profits"? Hmmmm.... {sm3} Now then, SECOND, you go to the manufacturer?



Sure they do. And farmers sell their produce for the HIGHEST price they can get, the cads. :wink2:

You do realize there is high correlation between cost and price, I presume....

Actions speak louder than words. If K&C sells out their production, guess what? The price discussion is moot. I repeat from before: "Only real money buys whiskey".

Note: If ever somebody comes to me and complains about price, and they are a loyal and worthy client, I will listen. If they are not, I (may be) am polite but most likely unmoved. It just makes good business sense.

Also, it helps to run a business to understand these things.

Ahh!!!!!
Now I see. You are a retailer. You'd rather see the higher prices than not. More money in your pocket. The sight comes clear. Even the snide comments given towards a discussion. You and I will not see completely eye to eye on this point.
I don't need to run a business to see how it works. The knowledge is there. Not the experience, of which I choose not. Not my forte. You and I know we don't go from cashier to manufacturor. Unless its a local family business. There are steps to go through, like the "chain of command." I agree if goods are sold out then it is moot. Thus the reasoning to manufacture limited quantities. Keep on going for the excessive profits, I don't have to purchase from you. Keep up the snide comments, you are doing an excelent job!!!

 

[nmrocks]

If you ever want to see what Texas is about...DON'T go to El Paso!:rolleyes2:

 

[Ruggles]

If you ever want to see what Texas is about...DON'T go to El Paso!:rolleyes2:

How about we trade you El Paso for say.......Cloudcroft? We will throw in the Dallas Cowboys for good measure. {sm4}