Best Money Sense on Retired (1 Viewer)

[uksubs]

Good points there Nicholas, the FOV 1/32 range got me into larger tank sets and the Delprado figure/magazine range got me into King & Country.

I have mentioned it before but I think TS manufacturers should look at advertising via PC/Online and Console war games, especially those based on World War Two First Person Shooter. I have Two teenage boys and many of their friends play such war games and when they drop-in they like to check out my 1/30 collection, especially those naughty Germans.

Well I know for a fact that K&C are advertising in The Britain at War + The Flypast magazine with there new plane range as Rob as Rob pointed out

 

[uksubs]

But be careful as you will probably pay customs tax, postage and possibly a handling fee

Rob

I know Rob but for me £90.00 for three figures is to much & where does it stop , the price of living is rising all the time but wages are not , I stopped buying K&C stuff a couple of years back as I thought it was a very costly hobby & only came back to it as I love K&C Arnhem range ,saying that I'm happy with what I've got & with this hobby I think less is more as I don't think you need to buy everything & maybe K&C only making Arnhem stuff once a year is a good move on K&C part , for me I like the diorama side of the hobby as I think it bring the best out of the figures happy days

 

[uksubs]

Subo, here's my post # 24, please read it.

The thing is Oz the Australian toy soldier market is only a small part of a world wide business. mate
Is the hobby that big in Australia

 

[OzDigger]

The thing is Oz the Australian toy soldier market is only a small part of a world wide business. mate
Is the hobby that big in Australia

Australia having a small population than most countries will always represent a smaller share of most retail business, including the Toy Soldier business. However any change in trends here is likely to indicate what is happening globally, albeit on a smaller scale.

 

[uksubs]

Australia having a small population than most countries will always represent a smaller share of most retail business, including the Toy Soldier business. However any change in trends here is likely to indicate what is happening globally, albeit on a smaller scale.

I think Andy at K&C know what he doing mate

 

[OzDigger]

I think Andy at K&C know what he doing mate

I'm not sure what caused you to say that However, it seems to conflict with your recent comments about the current K & C King Tiger and your preference for the FOV 1/16 version.

 

[Mitch]

I think the toy soldier business goes around in cycles and adapts to the current climate it finds itself in and, has last for hundereds of years and will continue to do so. Probably, like most I started of with my brothers Airfix plastics and some really nice painted plastic figures which, had metal bases but, the name slips me at the moment and, then progressed into plastic kits. This is probably the route many take even today but, when we are talking about what manufacturers are doing to revive the hobby (should it need to be) one is forgetting that the hobby we are in or, at least this end of it is not for children and never has been. We do not collect toys and should not expect anything else.

Its not really, IMO the big manufacturers who should be drawing in children its the guys who collect who have kids and, starting their interest in history and the cheaper side of the collection which, is plastics and then go from there. Nobody I know starts their kids of on K&C or FL or Figarti et al as they are not stupid kids break things.

You cannot force someone to become interested in a hobby as then its not a hobby and, this debate about where the hobby is going has been probably discussed since it began the hobby will be fine and will adapt continue to evolve it may not be in the way that some like but, thats life.
Mitch

 

[Vezzolf]

Mitch, Very True....What you say about cycles....Unfortunately it seems that all aspects of the economy are down....All luxury items will be the first things to be cut....Toy soldiers and their "pecieved value" will be no exception... sorry but that goes for K/C retired as well as far as I can see...Thus I don't buy to re-sell or speculate....I expect that "values"....will decline somewhat for the next few years. Just my guess....Many will curb their purchases significantly....And increased cost to play in this hobby may keep most from entering the hobby.....Time will tell

 

[Rutledge]

....All luxury items will be the first things to be cut....Toy soldiers and their "pecieved value" will be no exception... sorry but that goes for K/C retired as well as far as I can see...increased cost to play in this hobby may keep most from entering the hobby.....Time will tell

Luxury items have fared as well or better than the overall economy. The truly wealthy are not deeply affected, as regards their regular spending habits, by a decline in the stock market or housing values.

Most toy soldiers do not have price points to qualify them as truly luxury items. Being purely discretionary purchases, however, their sales could be impacted by further economic pressures. By the same token, if the supply of new toy soldiers decreases, this could generate increased demand, and prices, for retired items.

How collectors will react is anybody's guess. They could collectively retrench their total buying. Or they may elect to trim some sideline areas in order to focus on their favorites. Some may decide to cut costs by painting their own figures. More financially well-off collectors may elect to stock up on retired items being sold at auction by those in financial distress. Lots of different scenarios could play out. Ultimately the market will decide. Still too early to be making projections.

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Just read Vezzolf’s interesting post…Whilst I respect his opinion my experience and outlook is somewhat different…

New people are continuing to come into the hobby and…the business is still expanding. Perhaps not as fast as I and others would like but still going in the right direction.

I truly believe that the world is broadly divided into two roughly equal halves…pessimists and optimists. For some the glass is always half empty…for others it’s still half full. I make no excuses for belonging to the later camp.

But I don’t just sit there in hopeful anticipation…I am a businessman and have, I believe, a fairly realistic grasp of the economic situation in Europe, Asia, Australasia and the good ‘ole’ U.S.A.

Is it tough out there…of course it is! But as I said in another post…challenging times lead to interesting opportunities.

You just have to go looking for them…If however, I choose to believe that the overall pie is getting smaller then I want K&C to get a bigger slice…

One thing Vezzolf and me can agree on is this…Time alone will tell!

Best wishes,
Andy C.

 

[jazzeum]

Andy,

There are two things we can count on here: the sun will come up tomorrow and Frank will continue to post about the "evil" of eBay and retired prices.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

[tdubel]

What I find interesting is a disregard for facts when these threads come up. Like I said, I am happy (not that anyone really cares) to compile sales data that shows what sells and that the retired game is going quite nicely. I am not sure what some of y'all look at when you form your statements. Auctions will always produce a nice buy here and there, but I can tell you where I get outbid and it is quite often and I am not exactly putting in chump change bids on some of this stuff. I can also show you certain dealers full sale values for the "old" k&C stuff and that it is going quite well both on and off ebay. Look, I am not happy at the cost of some of the stuff, but if you have ever collected anything from stamps, coins, cards, china, trains, etc. the hard to find or seldom seen or "retired" pieces always go for decent change, it is just a fact of collectibles. Now regarding their investment value, i think they are as good as any market and here is my take - seems to me in any "investment" you get in, the object is to buy low and sell high. I have been in many situations in the stock market where I bought high and now can't sell, same thing can happen in any market and as far as the stock market goes, it has trended sideways or down for 8 years. I get sick of hearing how the market went up dramatically in the last 2 years from the "brokers", yeah maybe from point a to b but try looking at it for the 8 year horizon how much has it gone up???? Back to point, this "collectibles market" is what it is. Facts are if you have a good piece, you will make money on it. If you have a common or not as desired piece, you should get most of your money back. If you have a crappy piece, hope you like it! And I do agree with everyone that if you like a piece, WHO cares what it is worth.

Tom

 

[Mitch]

Andy states that the world is halved with optimists and pessimist but, also its filled with those who have cash and those that have less. Economy or not there will be a number of people who will continue to be able to buy what they want without to much stress.

There will also be those who may well have to reduce the amount of items they buy but, this may only be temporary and, for many even in this economy there actually is more money loose to spend with interest rates being so low so, its swings and roundabouts IMO.

I have never been a collector who buys to sell in a later time to try and make a profit I am not knocking those who do but, its not of interest to me. The older stiff as has been said will always command good prices as its rare and that comes at a premium.

Interesting thread though
Mitch

 

[OzDigger]

What I find interesting is a disregard for facts when these threads come up. Like I said, I am happy (not that anyone really cares) to compile sales data that shows what sells and that the retired game is going quite nicely. I am not sure what some of y'all look at when you form your statements. Auctions will always produce a nice buy here and there, but I can tell you where I get outbid and it is quite often and I am not exactly putting in chump change bids on some of this stuff. I can also show you certain dealers full sale values for the "old" k&C stuff and that it is going quite well both on and off ebay. Look, I am not happy at the cost of some of the stuff, but if you have ever collected anything from stamps, coins, cards, china, trains, etc. the hard to find or seldom seen or "retired" pieces always go for decent change, it is just a fact of collectibles. Now regarding their investment value, i think they are as good as any market and here is my take - seems to me in any "investment" you get in, the object is to buy low and sell high. I have been in many situations in the stock market where I bought high and now can't sell, same thing can happen in any market and as far as the stock market goes, it has trended sideways or down for 8 years. I get sick of hearing how the market went up dramatically in the last 2 years from the "brokers", yeah maybe from point a to b but try looking at it for the 8 year horizon how much has it gone up???? Back to point, this "collectibles market" is what it is. Facts are if you have a good piece, you will make money on it. If you have a common or not as desired piece, you should get most of your money back. If you have a crappy piece, hope you like it! And I do agree with everyone that if you like a piece, WHO cares what it is worth.

Tom

Tom, I agree it depends upon what retired items you are talking about, and how long they have been retired. For example most sets retired within the last Three years don't achieve the prices of older sets, especially if they were high priced sets such as the US Wrecker. And across the board ebay prices have dropped on what K & C were achieving several years ago. That said they certainly hold their value better than items from their 1/30 scale competition.

 

[OzDigger]

Andy states that the world is halved with optimists and pessimist but, also its filled with those who have cash and those that have less. Economy or not there will be a number of people who will continue to be able to buy what they want without to much stress.

There will also be those who may well have to reduce the amount of items they buy but, this may only be temporary and, for many even in this economy there actually is more money loose to spend with interest rates being so low so, its swings and roundabouts IMO.

I have never been a collector who buys to sell in a later time to try and make a profit I am not knocking those who do but, its not of interest to me. The older stiff as has been said will always command good prices as its rare and that comes at a premium.

Interesting thread though
Mitch

Mitch, you have raised this several times suggesting that K & C was always aimed at more affluent customers and these rich folk are over represented in their cutomer base. This is not strictly correct because K & C switched from hand-made Timber products to Polystone to reduce the set price and attract a wider range of customers.

In addition I believe that the majority of K & C customers can still afford to buy the more expensive new sets. However like me, I'm sure most are considering how they can justify such expenditure considering the economic situation and other options such as improving their life style - which models do not. And of course this applies more or less to the other 1/30 manufactures and hobbies in general.

 

[Northgate Woods]

Gentlemen,
Interesting debate. I think the Toy Soldier Industry is fascinating. It has a small but ever expanding market. Australia being a prime example. But I do agree that times are tough and if you want the sets you are after, then you just have to work harder to generate the income to satisify your appetite.
I have set a goal to what I want to achieve in my collecting and also set my budgets (it may be bigger than most, but I work hard to manage it).
The point that Tom makes is there are still collectors who will pay top price for what their collections need. The recent example being a AE18 long retired (Oct 2006) Pair of Sphinx which sold on Ebay for GBP303.00 (roughly USD$470) and the same set a month before sold for over USD$500. So the debate will always rage on with differing opinions.
If we all think positive (Vezzolf please take note) then the future for TS collecting around the world will be bright. Nobody likes Ebay and having to pay higher prices but thats life. If you don't like it, don't look.
My thoughts only, Cheers Howard

 

[Mitch]

OZDigger...

I raise this point as its true. The change came about (IMO and from what I have heard from others and Andy) because K&C turned from a small company into an ever growing one and, as more customers began to buy products newer materials not only reduced costs but speeded up the production runs allowing more expansion. If I am wrong then Andy can correct me but, it seems logical

I raise it again because its collectables for adults not children and, that is the point. IMO you get one crack at life and everything I do or buy enhances my way of living and I include my collectables etc. Are they more important than food on the table no, certainly not but, I don't think any one of us is in that position or we would not have any sets and would not be on here discussing these issues.
Mitch

 

[OzDigger]

OZDigger...

I raise this point as its true. The change came about (IMO and from what I have heard from others and Andy) because K&C turned from a small company into an ever growing one and, as more customers began to buy products newer materials not only reduced costs but speeded up the production runs allowing more expansion. If I am wrong then Andy can correct me but, it seems logical

I raise it again because its collectables for adults not children and, that is the point. IMO you get one crack at life and everything I do or buy enhances my way of living and I include my collectables etc. Are they more important than food on the table no, certainly not but, I don't think any one of us is in that position or we would not have any sets and would not be on here discussing these issues.
Mitch

Mitch, the subject has been raised in the past with long term K & C collectors and Andy being invovled in the discussion(s). Believe me, it is true that K & C decided to use polystone to reduce the RRP of each set and thus attract a wider customer base. When I started collecting K & C the RRP was US $89 for a Tank with several Crew, which was about the same as a Forces of Valor set in Australia (believe it or not). It was an easy decision for me to switch from FOV to K & C as their figures were much better and the track detail has improved over time.

 

[Mitch]

Then we are on the same page
Mitch

Mitch, the subject has been raised in the past with long term K & C collectors and Andy being invovled in the discussion(s). Believe me, it is true that K & C decided to use polystone to reduce the RRP of each set and thus attract a wider customer base. When I started collecting K & C the RRP was US $89 for a Tank with several Crew, which was about the same as a Forces of Valor set in Australia (believe it or not). It was an easy decision for me to switch from FOV to K & C as their figures were much better and the track detail has improved over time.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Oz wrote "I can only speak for my part of the world, which is actually better off than most countries. I have been collecting military models for over 30 years and I have Never seen the hobby so depressed. Of the dozens of collectors I know, there is only One guy that hasn't cut back on collecting. Every hobby shop that I know has reduced staff numbers and are actively seeking new customers to replace the regulars that have cut back their spending".

I have been playing catch up on a number of threads so this is a good place to start.
OzDigger made some comments above about his part of the world. I am his nearest Toy Soldier dealer. I am aware Oz has collected other brands I do not sell as well a diecast such a Corgi etc. I am not sure if he talking about Hobby shops in general or Toy Soldiers in particular.

In relation to diecast I would agree there has been a decline (I gave up on it). Same goes for plastic kits. I know of 5 hobby type shops that have closed in recent years (2 were due to big rent increases and the others were relatively small outlets chasing a small modeller market). On the same note the same happened to wargaming businesses I know. However from my knowledge and talking to the owners of the bigger hobby shops the real money in the mainstream hobby shops is in remote control and train items. Even then they, like me, have cut back on staff. However the same can be said for many other types of businnesses such as restaurants. Only the strong and adaptable survive.

When Oz refers to "dozens" of collectors I am pretty confident he is not referring to dozens of mine and that many of those he refers to are more diecast type collectors. I do believe the one who has not cut back could be one of mine !

I agree about his comment "actively seeking new customers to replace the regulars that have cut back their spending". I have had customers stop collecting due to death, divorce, loss of job, lack of space, kids, and pressure from the "evil" wife in addition to economic hard times. I had a customer recently tell me he had to sell all his K&C Ltd Ed's to raise some money. Such is life. On ther other hand a collector who I had not heard from for several months just popped up to buy two K&C aircraft. I am constantly looking for new collectors and do this by advertising, improving shop displays and having better stock and variety.

K&C in particular as indicated by Andy's post elsewhere has helped my business (and no doubt other dealers) by expanding his already large variety of items to include Boats (Landing Craft, Seehund and US Launch), Aircraft and related items, diorama items that improve displays and the Australian Light Horse. I can see long term planning in K&C releases. This widens the scope to attract more customers.

Oz, if you think now is "depressed" what do you think I was thinking two years ago when the GFC hit and K&C prices rose 50% in 6 weeks just becuase the A$ went down. The change in my shop display and stock (including three additional TS brands) since then does not support your view of the depressed market so perhaps you are talking more mainstream diecast and hobby type shops.

That's my opinion and it seems to be different to yours. Minor point but you do not speak for your "part of the world" but just the part that you experience.

Now off to check out the Battle of Britain !!!

Regards
Brett