Confederate flag banned on Amazon (2 Viewers)

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When did slavery end in the north and how did it come about?
Mark
 
Although I have strong views about the topic and the Civil War in general and it is my principal area of reading interest, I find that to try to have a rational question is usually out of the question because it usually descends into what this thread has become.

In response to Mark's question, states in the colonial North ended it gradually because the conditions in which it prospered (agriculture) didn't exist in the North (or not as much as the South). The last state to get rid of it completely was NJ because NJ is also an agricultural state.

By the terms of the Northwest Ordinance, slavery wasn't allowed in states to be formed there such as Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, etc.

As part of our continuing compromise with this heinous institution, in 1820 the Missouri Compromise provided that states above Missouri (36 30) were to be free and those below slave.

It's an oversimplification but from then until 1854 things were generally calm.

Slavery essentially split the country apart in 1854 when Congress, in deciding what to do with the Kansas Nebraska territory, overthrew the Missouri Compromise.

Relations continued to dramatically sour between the sections and war eventually resulted.
 
None of this is to say that Black people were welcome with open arms in the North. They were not. Only in Massachusetts did they have the right to vote as of 1860 and very few states granted them the ordinary rights of citizens. Illinois, for example, had black codes. It was Lincoln's intention to grant some freed slaves in Louisiana the right to vote that cost him his life.

One last observation. Some Northern states like NY had at one point more slaves than states like Georgia, until the Southern planters and entrepreneurs figured out how to make slavery pay. An excellent book on the topic is Edward Baptist's The Half Has Never Been Told.
 
tdubel said:
I gave up on this debate a long time ago as the viewpoints are so ingrained in most parties that you can't even have a discussion around it without it becoming all about the Evil South and the Innocent North. Let's be honest, they both depended on each other's way of life and the labor was part of that, albeit it was completely wrong on all levels. It was an issue pure and simple, just not the only one. In the end and I truly believe this, there was going to be a fight sooner or later that was necessary to unite a nation that was divided on many levels.

With all due respect, he who flies the Rebel flag is not instantaneously a Slaver. I will continue to wave my Rebel Flag proudly for my ancestors who fought for a way of life they believe in - Freedom of choice and an agricultural society. For the record and it is well documented within my family records, they were NOT Slave owners, they were simple Shenandoah farmers who didn't believe in a totalitarian Federal Government (their opinion at the time). Furthermore, they didn't employ any help on the farms (several), they were self run by a large family, unfortunately, a number of them perished at Yellow Tavern.

I have to put up with enough PC BS in life, I will be darned if I will subject my family heritage to it.


Tom
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Tom,
Thanks for your response and I understand your points on excessive "PC" and some people looking at the Confederate flag as a reminder of their heritage. I am not saying that all those who own this flag are "slavers" or racists. The facts, however, show that the Confederate battle flag has been used as a symbol of hatred, segregation and racism for over 150 years. Just look at the archives of newspaper photos and news reels showing Southern crowds waving these flags while hurling insults and threats at civil rights marchers. Look at the people spitting and cursing at the children being escorted by US marshals into segregated schools while waving their Confederate flags. Look at the photos of ku klux klan members in their hideous white robes waving their Confederate flags. I saw this first hand as a college student in the sixties who marched with civil rights workers. I saw this first hand when traveling extensively in the South for business in the seventies.
If you want to own a Confederate flag and hang it in your home that is your right. If you want to view the flag in a museum that is fine. If we want to have toy soldiers depicting history with these flags I am
a participant. But to have this flag flying over a government or public institution is not only offensive to many but sends a terrible message to our younger generations who we are teaching compassion, tolerance and acceptance of diversity.
There were some legitimate causes for the South to rebel, and we can debate those another time. Slavery was a major cause and the fact is that America was one of the last if not the last of industrialized countries to abolish slavery. No historian will say that slavery was not a prime cause of the Civil War among other issues. The flag just represents too much hate and disrespect to so many people that we should understand and agree to keep it in a place where history can be taught and lessons can be learned.....a museum or private collection.
This goes way beyond PC.....it is respect for those who suffered and those who still experience racism in this country not to have this symbol waved in their face.
Slavery was evil and racism is evil......Not all in the South supported slavery and not all Southerners were evil. There was plenty of racism and violence towards Blacks in the North.
The Germans teach their children about the horrors and evil of WWII and the Holocaust because they want the truth to be a learning experience. They ban all Nazi symbols because they are offensive and set a bad example. This shows their youth that they acknowledge their misguided past and don't intend for it to happen again. We should take a lesson from them.
Thanks for listening.
 
nysoldiers said:
Tom,
Thanks for your response and I understand your points on excessive "PC" and some people looking at the Confederate flag as a reminder of their heritage. I am not saying that all those who own this flag are "slavers" or racists. The facts, however, show that the Confederate battle flag has been used as a symbol of hatred, segregation and racism for over 150 years. Just look at the archives of newspaper photos and news reels showing Southern crowds waving these flags while hurling insults and threats at civil rights marchers. Look at the people spitting and cursing at the children being escorted by US marshals into segregated schools while waving their Confederate flags. Look at the photos of ku klux klan members in their hideous white robes waving their Confederate flags. I saw this first hand as a college student in the sixties who marched with civil rights workers. I saw this first hand when traveling extensively in the South for business in the seventies.
If you want to own a Confederate flag and hang it in your home that is your right. If you want to view the flag in a museum that is fine. If we want to have toy soldiers depicting history with these flags I am
a participant. But to have this flag flying over a government or public institution is not only offensive to many but sends a terrible message to our younger generations who we are teaching compassion, tolerance and acceptance of diversity.
There were some legitimate causes for the South to rebel, and we can debate those another time. Slavery was a major cause and the fact is that America was one of the last if not the last of industrialized countries to abolish slavery. No historian will say that slavery was not a prime cause of the Civil War among other issues. The flag just represents too much hate and disrespect to so many people that we should understand and agree to keep it in a place where history can be taught and lessons can be learned.....a museum or private collection.
This goes way beyond PC.....it is respect for those who suffered and those who still experience racism in this country not to have this symbol waved in their face.
Slavery was evil and racism is evil......Not all in the South supported slavery and not all Southerners were evil. There was plenty of racism and violence towards Blacks in the North.
The Germans teach their children about the horrors and evil of WWII and the Holocaust because they want the truth to be a learning experience. They ban all Nazi symbols because they are offensive and set a bad example. This shows their youth that they acknowledge their misguided past and don't intend for it to happen again. We should take a lesson from them.
Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...


Rich, you definitely have a lot of valid points I do agree with, sympathize and understand. It burns me to no end when these idiot groups/individuals use the battle flag (mainly that one as most people have no idea of the other flags associated with the Confederacy!). Obviously I don't agree with PC, I disagree even more with the misuse of any flag and unfortunately, as has been named, the Battle and the Gadsden have been maligned and misused for a long time and thus have brewed these issues. I absolutely can't stand the political convenience either, that is just nuts in my opinion.

You bring up an interesting point that I wholeheartedly agree with regarding the SS runes/swastika. That regime was very black and white on their viewpoints and was purely evil. I agree on all points there. I just think in relation to the Confederate Battle Flag, it gets oversimplified as there were a lot more complicated views basically with the rebirth of a united nation.

I agree, thanks for listening,
TD
 
I actually agree to both sides of this controversy. But the part that drives me up a wall is here we go again trying to force PC ideas down peoples throats. When you do this all you do is further strengthen their beliefs rather right or wrong. If flying the confederate flag, to some people is a way of expressing their views on race, do you think for one minute their views will change? Absolutely not it will only make them stronger.
Oh and thanks to the moderators for letting this discussion continue. One can only talk toy soldiers so much.
Gary
 
What most Northerners cannot fathom is pride in "Old South" culture/heritage. THIS IS NOT CODE FOR SLAVERY OR RACISM. What it is is pride in the cultural norms and habits of our ancestors -- be it grits or proper manners or the southern twang or ya'll or whatever. The simplest, most effective way of displying that is the conferedate flag.

A few points:

- Although Im a son of the south, I lived in Chicago after college. I worked on the Board of Trade with lots of northerners, getting to know many in New York over the phone. I heard plenty of negative stereotyping from them, whether about the south or other races. Anyone who boasts about the supposed moral superioroty of the north makes me laugh.
- I own no confederate flag memorbilia or artifacts. I do have a framed Jasper John (copy of course) on the wall. Its of an american flag.
- Its perplexing to me how so many want to castiagate all of "southerness" based on the heinous acts of one deranged, vicious thug of an individual. Then, after attacks by the same sorts under the guise of Islam they protest loudly at any attempt to equate Islam with others who adhere to the muslim faith. Seems extraordinarily inconsistent.
 
waynepoo said:
Does this mean that any Confederate flag bearer figures are now banned on EBAY?
Wayne.
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Haven't looked but may be colored over like the Swastika is on flags. If not now, probably in near future.

Chris
 
This seems very simple without the necessity of debating the Civil War. There is nothing PC about this. Individuals are free to express their opinion that the flag is offensive. Private companies are free to decide they don't want to sell it. Individuals can display or do whatever they want with the flag. End of story.
 
You're all missing the broader point. Display or sale of the Confederate battle flag is just one example of something that offends people. This issue is more an issue of the pressure placed on individuals or groups and companies, to change their behavior because some say they are offended.
 
The flag being argued over isn't even the flag of the Confederacy.

confederate-flag-picture.jpg


The flag on the left is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (Lee's army) and it was first flown over State capitols in 1961 in protest of the US Federal Government program of desegregation. It wasn't flown over State capitols even during the Civil War. As such, I think it is inappropriate for it to be flown over government and public agency buildings.


The flag on the right is the actual flag of the Confederacy.



Terry
 
There were three official Confederate flags. The flag on the right, above, was the first. The other two had the stars and bars in the upper right corner.

"While it wasn't the Confederate states' official flag, the battle flag was flown by several Confederate Army units. The most notable among them was Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia."
 
Ok, this gets even more comical, did you see now that Warner Bros is no longer producing the Dukes of Hazzard General Lee car? Good Lord. This is getting ridiculous, are they going to now reissue the DVD's with the Flag imaged off of the tv show????

TD
 
Rutledge said:
There were three official Confederate flags. The flag on the right, above, was the first. The other two had the stars and bars in the upper right corner.

"While it wasn't the Confederate states' official flag, the battle flag was flown by several Confederate Army units. The most notable among them was Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia."
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I'm not sure but I believe it was flown only by the Army of Northern Virginia which had units from many of the Confederate states and they flew the flag when they were part of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Terry
 
Phantom Warrior said:
Yes - it will make the DVDs more valuable. {sm3} The $50 General Lee by Ertl is now going for $250 {eek3}^&grin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ertl-Americ...b&pid=100005&rk=4&rkt=6&sd=261921300791&rt=nc

Terry
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This is actually the first version box with the Flag print........double rare in all seriousness! I actually have the full run of these cars, guess I should sell them now while they are hot. I wonder if Lynyrd Skynyrd will no longer be welcome to perform, that will be next!
TD
 
To me Democracy is "communication, respect and compromise"......
Express your opinions, debate them civilly and hammer out a position(legislation) that both sides can agree to, albeit in many cases reluctantly.
I have learned some valid points from this discussion and also thank the moderators for letting it continue.
It is very difficult to know where to "draw the line" in terms of what is offensive and what might even incites violence from someone's right of "free speech".
We all know the adage that you can't yell fire in a movie theatre because the first amendment protects your right of free speech!
My compromise would be to fly the "flag of the Confederacy" in certain agreed to locations. As mentioned on this forum the Northern Virginia Battle Flag was
raised to protest the abolishment of segregation in the sixties and as I said it was used as a symbol of hate by racist elements all over the USA.

I'm old enough to remember when you could comment on a woman's looks in the work place without being charged with sexual harassment. We could say "hello beautiful" or "sweetheart" without being pulled into the HR office. When my daughter entered the work world I started to get it, however, and realized there was some merit to these new guidelines and regulations. Maybe to me it was just being friendly but to many females it denoted male chauvinism and sexism which was very real in my life time.
So I guess the bottom line is to try and understand each others sensitivities and come up with a "compromise" that shows both parties their opinions are respected.
 
Combat said:
This seems very simple without the necessity of debating the Civil War. There is nothing PC about this. Individuals are free to express their opinion that the flag is offensive. Private companies are free to decide they don't want to sell it. Individuals can display or do whatever they want with the flag. End of story.
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I fully disagree, the actions of Warner Brothers with respect to Dukes of Hazzard merchandise is very PC. Give me a break, the Dukes show made more fun of white southern stereotypes than anything else, that was the point of the show - BOSS HOGG - corrupt fat cigar chompin politician being consistently foiled by the "good old Duke boys".

TD
 
The first flag of the confederacy was bars and stars. It was left because looked too similar to the US one. The second was with the st. Andrew cross and the white on one side of it and also this one was left because when waved the white could be seen as a sign of surrender. So in the 3rd and last one, a red stripe was added( also symbol of the blood shed to defend their independence). The bonnie blue flag was the unofficial flag.







texas-considers-confederate-flag-license-plate-democratic-underground_309747.jpeg
 
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