Confederate flag banned on Amazon (1 Viewer)

[wds0855]

I have to admit that I cannot believe how controversial this whole Confederate flag "thing" has become.

I have to say that I never considered myself a Southern sympathizer as to their belief in States rights, slavery, etc. Maybe because I have always been a Yankee, born and raised in Pennsylvania. I have never flown the Confederate flag. I have 2 flags I fly, either the contemporary 50 star flag or the 13 star Betsy Ross flag (which I purchased in Williamsburg, VA).

I know one household that does flag the Confederate stars and bars on a daily basis. Even though I pass by that flag on my way to work every day I never considered it offensive. I just assumed someone there must have roots from the deep South perhaps. So what I am saying is even though I would never consider flying any Confederate state flag or the stars and bars, I would not deny someone else the right to do so. I still believe in free speech and someone else's right to express that.

I saw on the news this morning that 3 major flag makers, including one here in PA, will no longer even PRODUCE the Confederate flag.
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-major-u-flag-maker-stop-making-confederate-184108179--finance.html
Kind of ironic. These might actually become very rare in the near future. But if you have one left, you could probably not even sell it, online at least.

I wonder what the landscape will look like the next time I drive through the town of Gettysburg. I always enjoyed the "atmosphere" of Gettysburg, and part of that atmosphere was the sight of both Union and Confederate flags on prominent display. Maybe now that has changed forever.

Walt

 

[Poppo]

Poppo, what happened to your confederate flag avatar?

It was cancelled by the administration

 

[Poppo]

(CNN)

eBay will ban the sale of Confederate flag merchandise, the auction site announced Tuesday, in a decision that follows in the steps of major retailers like Walmart and Sears.

"We have decided to prohibit Confederate flags, and many items containing this image, because we believe it has become a contemporary symbol of divisiveness and racism," eBay spokesperson Johnna Hoff said in an email to CNN. "This decision is consistent with our long-standing policy that prohibits items that promote or glorify hatred, violence and racial intolerance."

The company's decision mirrors that of Walmart and Sears, which have also removed Confederate flag products from their stores.

The controversial flag has come under intense scrutiny following a racially motivated mass shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, that left nine African-Americans dead in a historic church. On Monday, South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley also called on the Confederate flag to be taken down from the state's capitol grounds.

A spokesperson at Amazon did not respond to repeated requests from CNN on Monday and Tuesday about its sale of Confederate flag merchandise.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/23/politics/confederate-flag-ebay/

Hey, business is business :wink2:

 

[jazzeum]

Just as sellers have to be careful in covering up the Nazi flag or in selling figures of Hitler, I'm sure they will learn to cover the Confederate flag. After awhile, eBay monitors may relax in their inspection of auctions.

 

[tdubel]

Here's the deal. Gov. Haley of South Carolina stressed that, for many, the flag represents noble traditions of heritage and duty, but for others, it is a 'deeply offensive symbol of a brutally offensive past.' We at Treefrog agree. It has a long and complex past (as this thread has discussed).

Because of this, we took the small step of disallowing this particular flag to be used as an avatar or profile picture. Obviously the flag has historical significance. We understand that. Clearly it may be displayed in toy soldier images!

Those using this flag as an avatar are being asked to remove it. Poppo chose a different historical flag from the Confederacy...to my knowledge this flag has none of the current racial overtones of the flag in question.

Symbols are tricky things and can mean many things to many people. What offends one will not offend others.

Thank you for your understanding.

Pete,
As I said in the PM to you, I disagree with this, but it is your forum. I would also challenge that if this is your belief of offense, then I would have to ask why you are still allowing toy soldiers to be sold with the flag and why you are still going to sell them? If you agree with the position taken by the retailers, then that would not be the case.

Again, this is a ridiculous issue that I thought intelligence would carry the day, obviously anyone will find offense in anything and this to me is the epitome of a sad day when on a history themed website full of intelligent discussion, we find a censorship in place.

As I said, it is your business and I respect that but I find a whole lot of these decisions very hypocritical.

I consider you all good friends in this hobby, I am just saddened by your stance.

Tom

 

[theBaron]

...also...

kind of a funny twist...

they removed about a dozen of his JJD Jacobite clan figures with flags for the same reason...

Who in the heck is offended by Jacobite clan flags? Are there Hanoverians out there, expressing their outrage to eBay and beating their breasts? Or is it the word "clan", and the idiot millenials staffing eBay don't know the difference between "clan" and "Klan"?

See, folks, this is what I mean with my previous post. While you're all descending into yet another argument ad nauseum about the causes of the Civil War, you miss the real point. This is not about the Confederacy, its symbols, and the reasons why Southerners fought. This is about the modern perception that we have a right not to be offended by anything, and that anything that can be said to offend anyone, must be shut down, hidden, expunged from the public view, and even from historical accounts. For me, this is a very dangerous trend, and it is counter to the belief of our Founders, that any idea, no matter how repugnant, must be allowed to be aired, and then we can defeat it through reason. But this idea of shutting down expression, because it's offensive to someone, is a totalitarian idea, and we should fight it wherever it emerges.

 

[lancer]

Here's the deal. Gov. Haley of South Carolina stressed that, for many, the flag represents noble traditions of heritage and duty, but for others, it is a 'deeply offensive symbol of a brutally offensive past.' We at Treefrog agree. It has a long and complex past (as this thread has discussed).

Because of this, we took the small step of disallowing this particular flag to be used as an avatar or profile picture. Obviously the flag has historical significance. We understand that. Clearly it may be displayed in toy soldier images!

Those using this flag as an avatar are being asked to remove it. Poppo chose a different historical flag from the Confederacy...to my knowledge this flag has none of the current racial overtones of the flag in question.

Symbols are tricky things and can mean many things to many people. What offends one will not offend others.

Thank you for your understanding.

I try to stay clear of this type of controversy. I have my opinions, like everyone else. I must say, however, that I find this decision very disappointing and another example of PC gone OOC. No more to say, just disappointed. -- Al

 

[lancer]

Who in the heck is offended by Jacobite clan flags? Are there Hanoverians out there, expressing their outrage to eBay and beating their breasts? Or is it the word "clan", and the idiot millenials staffing eBay don't know the difference between "clan" and "Klan"?

See, folks, this is what I mean with my previous post. While you're all descending into yet another argument ad nauseum about the causes of the Civil War, you miss the real point. This is not about the Confederacy, its symbols, and the reasons why Southerners fought. This is about the modern perception that we have a right not to be offended by anything, and that anything that can be said to offend anyone, must be shut down, hidden, expunged from the public view, and even from historical accounts. For me, this is a very dangerous trend, and it is counter to the belief of our Founders, that any idea, no matter how repugnant, must be allowed to be aired, and then we can defeat it through reason. But this idea of shutting down expression, because it's offensive to someone, is a totalitarian idea, and we should fight it wherever it emerges.

Extremely well said and exactly the point. -- Al

 

[sammy719]

Pete,
As I said in the PM to you, I disagree with this, but it is your forum. I would also challenge that if this is your belief of offense, then I would have to ask why you are still allowing toy soldiers to be sold with the flag and why you are still going to sell them? If you agree with the position taken by the retailers, then that would not be the case.

Again, this is a ridiculous issue that I thought intelligence would carry the day, obviously anyone will find offense in anything and this to me is the epitome of a sad day when on a history themed website full of intelligent discussion, we find a censorship in place.

As I said, it is your business and I respect that but I find a whole lot of these decisions very hypocritical.

I consider you all good friends in this hobby, I am just saddened by your stance.

Tom

Agree with Tom 1,000 percent, never thought it would reach the levels of non sense it has now become, why wasn't anyone's avatar censored years ago?? or better yet I find the members who post from the UK who display the Union Jack flag offensive will they be forced to remove them (actually I don't) again like Tom mentioned this this Pete's forum and we abide by his rules but this kind of censorship is a hard pill to swallow...Sammy

 

[wds0855]

" This is not about the Confederacy, its symbols, and the reasons why Southerners fought. This is about the modern perception that we have a right not to be offended by anything, and that anything that can be said to offend anyone, must be shut down, hidden, expunged from the public view, and even from historical accounts. For me, this is a very dangerous trend, ..."

I have to agree with Brad. I think our generation will be remembered as the one that transitioned from living in the Land of the Free to the living in the Land of the Politically correct. To remove an avatar because it is used by someone on a forum for Toy Soldier hobbyists, simply because it displays a Confederate flag, borders on insanity. Can someone let me know what time the book burnings start?

Walt

 

[Combat]

Here's the deal. Gov. Haley of South Carolina stressed that, for many, the flag represents noble traditions of heritage and duty, but for others, it is a 'deeply offensive symbol of a brutally offensive past.' We at Treefrog agree. It has a long and complex past (as this thread has discussed).

Because of this, we took the small step of disallowing this particular flag to be used as an avatar or profile picture. Obviously the flag has historical significance. We understand that. Clearly it may be displayed in toy soldier images!

Those using this flag as an avatar are being asked to remove it. Poppo chose a different historical flag from the Confederacy...to my knowledge this flag has none of the current racial overtones of the flag in question.

Symbols are tricky things and can mean many things to many people. What offends one will not offend others.

Thank you for your understanding.

An excellent decision. This isn't about the Dukes of Hazzard or toy soldiers. This is about doing the right thing. Many people are offended by the flag. They don't want to erase it from history. They just don't want it displayed at public buildings. They have every right to express that opinion in a democracy. Those voices can and should be taken into consideration by businesses and lawmakers. That is the way our process is supposed to work. I can understand that there are others who disagree but they are free to voice their opinions to the same businesses and lawmakers while having every right to fly the flag on their private property. But simply trying to frame this discussion into an issue about some long forgotten TV show or claim it somehow impedes the ability to learn about the Civil War (remember those things called books?) or is PC because some retailers have voluntarily decided they don't want to sell the flag is to trivialize an important issue. What is the alternative being suggested here? To force people to remain silent about this or private businesses to sell or display products they deem offensive?

 

[nysoldiers]

I believe that I am one of the few people on this forum who has first hand experiences with segregation, extreme prejudice and violence towards Blacks in the South.
I did not come from a particularly liberal family. My father fought in WWII and had a sticker that said "America, love it or leave it"......he supported the Vietnam War
until his sons became eligible for the draft.
In High School in the Sixties i took an interest in American history and the Civil Rights movement. Living in New York City I had plenty of exposure to minorities and people
from different cultures. In college (George Washington University in DC) i got involved with Civil Rights and traveled down South to help with voter registration and tutor poor kids of
all colors. I worked in Huntsville, Alabama; Florence and Charlotte, South Carolina: Atlanta, Georgia and Mississippi.
I know there was plenty of resentment that Northern college kids were interfering with Southern culture but some of the people did understand our motives and were polite to us.
Unfortunately most of my experiences were tainted by violent threats, curses and uncontrolled anger......and in most cases the Confederate battle flag was present and waved in our faces.
I saw peaceful demonstrators beaten and taunted, I was pushed and knocked down several times and I was told that segregation will never end here.
That flag stuck in my mind, as it did to so many others, as a symbol of hate and violence. It was on the bumpers of cars along with racial slurs, it was on the windows of stores that said "no colored allowed",
It was on giant billboards along side KKK advertising.
Taking the flag down from government buildings and public institutions is not only Political Correctness it is the moral thing to do.
How does a Black man or woman feel after experiencing this hate in their life time when they have to go to court or a government agency and that flag is waving outside? To them it says, I will never get justice.
So I am emotional about this issue and could tell of many other experiences that figure into my position. But let me be clear, I don't demonize the South and I know that there is plenty of blame to go around
from all corners. For example the British abolished slavery but bought cotton from the Southern States, Northerners were involved in the slave trade and took advantage of cheap agricultural goods from the South.
I also agree with most that in many cases PC goes too far and I don't agree with Amazon and Ebay taking certain products off their sites.
I think, however, in a civilized, educated society we have to make judgment calls on offensive symbols. We need to have empathy and consideration for the more egregious offenses.
Would any of you want to see the swastika hanging from your neighbor's house? These are extreme cases that cause real emotional distress among the offended and send a terrible message to our young that we have not learned from our historical mistakes.
I have seen the pain caused by segregation, prejudice and denied rights on the faces of innocent people judged only by their color. Taking down this flag might seem like a small or insignificant gesture by some but to others it is a matter of respect and healing.

 

[jazzeum]

For the reasons set forth in Pete's post and Combat's post, I agree with Pete's decision and applaud it.

There is a difference between selling historical figures and flouting that flag as an avatar on a public forum and Tom knows it.

The sooner this symbol of white supremacy is removed from public areas, the better.

Now, if you wish to fly the flag on your property, be my guest. That's what a free country is all about, rights were that were denied to African Americans for a very long time.

Brad

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You can't blame ebay for banning the Confederate flag. ebay is changing it's name to the Ministry of Truth and listings will now be in Doublespeak which replaces English. History has been rewritten - there was no Civil War because slavery never existed in the US. So the Confederate flag cannot have been banned by ebay because it never existed.:rolleyes2:^&grin

What a load of poop

Terry

 

[tdubel]

For the reasons set forth in Pete's post and Combat's post, I agree with Pete's decision and applaud it.

There is a difference between selling historical figures and flouting that flag as an avatar on a public forum and Tom knows it.

The sooner this symbol of white supremacy is removed from public areas, the better.

Now, if you wish to fly the flag on your property, be my guest. That's what a free country is all about, rights were that were denied to African Americans for a very long time.

Brad

Brad,

I put the flag on there because in my opinion it is free speech and as you know me it is historical context for me, not white supremacy. I cannot believe that any active members on here are offended by that? If they are, I am at a loss for words. As I indicated, it is a private forum owned by Shannon and Pete and thus they have the ability to make the rules which we agree to abide to.

My point was and I believe valid that if you believe an avatar offends, where is the line drawn? Is the First National Flag ok, the Bonnie Blue? The South Carolina Star and Moon (by the way , Ebay removed that one!). Is a Dukes of Hazzard avatar ok b/c I like the show? See what I mean? It is a terribly slippery slope and again, to me it is a sad day in the good ole USA.


Tom

 

[Rutledge]

It strikes me that basically what is being said here is that one side's view of a symbol matters more than the others. That in fact those that actually know and stand by the symbol, that adamantly declare its symbolism is not about racism, slavery, opporession and so on, as charged by others, their opinions are held in low regard by those standing on the false premise of moral superiority.

In fact, most symbols mean different things to different people. The Christian cross and Islamic cresecent are prime examples. One may see each as the epitome of good, while another may see it just the opposite. So who is "wrong"?

If the Battle Flag is going to be removed based on one sides one-sided views, then for me the only acceptable way that happens is for ALL SYMBOLS to be removed from public institutions. Because any symbol can be offensive to anyone for any reason.

Of course artwork carries its own symbolism, depending on one's perspective, and as such also has no place in public buildings. Remove and prohibit all artwork. This includes war memorials too, naturally, as was seen recently with the movie "American Sniper". Protesters shut down the showing of this movie at some college campuses because they "felt threatened" by it.

I know when I lived in the North I was deeply offended and hurt when I came across statues or other war memorials to the Northern victors. Therefore I would demand that all such be removed from public spaces. Sure, if anyone wants to place them on their private property, have at it.

 

[gk5717]

How about this. Can some set up a poll and let's see how members of TF,s forum actually feel in numbers
The poll should be. Are you offended by the confederate flag either as an avitor or any other way of displaying it. A simple yes or no.
Gary

 

[jazzeum]

Tom,

The discussion that is being had on this Forum and nationally is a discussion that is a long time overdue and shows what Ken Burns or somebody else said that if you look for the Civil War, just look around you, because it is still an open wound for us all.

In a very unfortunate and unplanned way, this murderer may have done us all a services by having this discussion. Many of us find that flag when flown over a public place offensive because of what it represents and the history that goes with it: the Civil Rights Era, Emmett Till, lynchings, Jim Crow, what happened to the enslaved people of this country pre-1861 and so forth. Obviously, some don't. I think the sooner the better the flag is not there, the better. I, obviously, have toy soldiers that have the flag and don't think much of it.

I'm not going to change your mind about it as much as I try and you're not going to change my mind about it as much as you try. I think what is going on now is settling past accounts, in a very small way, for what happened to African Americans over the years, particularly during Jim Crow. I don't think we would be having this discussion had not the flag been appropriated by white hate groups to keep Black people in their place, who were trying to assert their rights.

The hope is that one day these matters are completely relegated to the history books where they belong.

As an aside, I find that except for flareups like these, most people don't seem to really have an interest in the Civil War, to really discuss it, to really discuss American History and how we got to where we did in 1860. Fore example, I see a lot of people jumping all over Forrest all the time. Obviously, not one of my favorite characters but in his later days, exhibited some good traits, that are often conveniently ignored. When I've posted things in the past, they generally get ignored. Although I don't agree with Poppo about 99% of the time, at least he's interested, so I have to give him that.

Brad

 

[marco55]

I think that any decent person is saddened and disgusted by what happen in Charleston and I think the confederate flag should come down from public buildings as we are the USA not CSA but these companies jumping on the bandwagon piss me off.It's not about what's decent or high morals it's all about the buck and they don't want protests or boycotts of their products or stores.I understand the Reuss's position and I think they are sincere but they are between a rock and a hard place if they ban avatars but still sell figures with the CSA flags.If you are going to stand on high moral ground you are going to have to make sacrifices.This country needs to concentrate on getting all the deranged lunatics and thugs off the street that's the problem here, not flags.
Mark

 

[Rutledge]

Louis Farrkahn has come out publicly saying "we have suffered just as much under the American flag as the CBF. We need to take that (the American flag) down!" There were many who agree as he was met with much applause.

Be careful about dismissing such talk as extremist or rogue. Many things like *** marriage were once considered that too.

So how will YOU defend the American flag when its flying is said to cause such distress and pain and hurt and offense among so many around the world?

Hmmmmmm