COVID the 3rd (2 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

I think my cousins get that.I'll ask my doctor about it.Thanks Brad.
Mark

I just got one a couple of months ago. Didn’t think I needed it but, hey, I’m over 65. I also used to get the flu shot sometimes but not always. I received one last year and this year so I suppose I will be getting it for the foreseeable future.

 

[zblang]

I’ve gotten a flu shot for what seems like forever. Don’t remember not getting one - no I’ll effects here (well, i think it makes me gain weight! That’s gotta be it!!! Hahaha)

I will be first in line when covid shot is available.

I’ve also gotten the pneumonia one a few times - also no issues with that one. Being diabetic, I don’t want any of these viruses!

 

[The Military Workshop]

Tomorrow my eldest grand-daughter has her awards ceremony at her school. Parents are not even allowed to enter school grounds so no parental involvement at all. 12 days ago we had 52,000 in a sports stadium and one of the explanations was if there were any virus cases they could track people by ticket info and seats. Fair to say I am fed up with the inconsistencies of restrictions.

For non Australian readers the situation in Queensland is considerably different to elsewhere. We have had probably about 1500 virus cases since it started and 6 deaths in March/April (4 related to cruise ships and all elderly). Not looked it up but probably been 3 months since last case of community transmission in the state which for months has had border check points preventing people coming in from other states.

Although I have some I dont recall any day out this year when I have worn a mask. No doubt it would be different if I was in UK or USA.

However like Louis I will not be lining up first to get any vaccine. More than happy for millions to go before me. I note OzD mentioned getting a flu jab as it was a requirement to go to see his mother in aged care. Perhaps if it was a requirement of travel I might have to consider getting one.

Like others I have been reading quite a bit about the virus and vaccines etc. My observation is you could look around online and find articles to bolster your point of view whatever it is. In some cases you have to dig further to find the source. OzD posted a link about :

The FDA has cautioned against the use of HCQ for Covid19 patients, side effects are many but of principle concerns are the risk of heart and eye damage.

Let us remember HCQ been around for 60 years and widely used so it seems odd there are now "principle concerns". It is also very cheap so no money to be made by pharma if HCQ works.

This would be the same FDA that approved Remsedivir on 22 OCT

FDA’s approval of Veklury (remdesivir) for the treatment of COVID-19—The Science of Safety and Effectiveness | FDA

[10/22/2020] FDA recognizes that patients affected by coronavirus 2019 (COVID-19) are in great need of medicines to treat this disease. To help meet this need, the agency is helping to speed the development of promising therapies through its Coronavirus Treatment Acceleration Program (CTAP). Today, FDA approved Veklury (remdesivir), the first drug approved to treat COVID-19, for use in adults and pediatric patients 12 years of age and older and weighing at least 40 kg (about 88 pounds) requiring hospitalization.

The announcement goes on to say:

Possible side effects include: increased levels of liver enzymes, which may be a sign of liver injury; and allergic reactions, which may include changes in blood pressure and heart rate, low blood oxygen level, fever, shortness of breath, wheezing, swelling (e.g., lips, around eyes, under the skin), rash, nausea, sweating or shivering.

Oh, ok then. Not sure if they are more serious than the CQH effects.

Then 6 days later you can find this article :
The ‘very, very bad look’ of remdesivir, the first FDA-approved COVID-19 drug | Science | AAAS (sciencemag.org)

The article quotes former FDA staff and questions the approval. From which comes these paras :

Martin Landray of the University of Oxford, who is co-leading the world’s largest study of various COVID-19 treatments, says remdesivir “definitely doesn’t work in the sickest patients where the biggest gains would be” but might help people at earlier stages of disease. Further complicating the matter, most people infected with SARS-CoV-2 recover without any intervention. “The argument that the earlier you use it the better is great until you realize what the implications of that are: You won’t save many lives, and you’ll have to treat a lot of patients,” Landray says. “It’s very inconvenient, and it’ll cost you a fortune.”
Questions have also arisen about the potential of remdesivir to do harm. WHO has a regular overview of possible adverse drug events related to COVID-19 treatments. In late August it noted a disproportionately high number of reports of liver and kidney problems in patients receiving remdesivir compared with patients receiving other drugs for COVID-19. The European Medicines Agency (EMA) also announced this month that its safety committee had started a review to assess reports of acute kidney injuries in some patients taking remdesivir.

Then from WIkipedia you get "According to international experts from the British Medical Journal, remdesivir "probably has no important effect on the need for mechanical ventilation and may have little or no effect on the length of hospital stay". Because of the high price, the authors point out that remdesivir may divert funds and efforts away from other effective treatments against COVID‑19.[SUP][101][/SUP][SUP][102][/SUP]
In November 2020, the World Health Organization updated its guideline on therapeutics for COVID-19 to include a conditional recommendation against the use of remdesivir, triggered by results from the WHO Solidarity trial.

Remsedivir was the treatment that USA bought up months of production. From ABC USA
For a majority of people who receive a five-day treatment of the drug using six vials (based on current patterns), the total charged to hospitals for patients with private insurance in the U.S. will be $3,120. For those under U.S. government health programs, the total will be $2,340 per patient.

Remsedivir is an example of why I will wait a while.

Other interesting links I have looked at on Remsedivir are :

US Documentary Full Measure (2020) ‘Hydroxychloroquine’ 18 May 2020 http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-story/hydroxychloroquine

(summed up as no money to be made using HCQ but millions with Remsedivir made by Gilead)

Investigative reporter Sharyl Attkisson reported in a story on the US program Full Measure on May 18 that eleven members of the NIH’s COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel reported links to a drug company, nine of them declaring relationships to Gilead. Seven more, including two of the committee’s leaders, had ties to Gilead beyond the eleven months they were required to disclose. Two were on Gilead’s advisory board, while others were either paid consultants or had received research support and honoraria. The endorsement of remdesivir and veering away from HCQ was perhaps, therefore, not surprising.

which led to this where you see the links of panelists to Gilead (Remsedivir maker)

USA. National Institute of Health. (2020) COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel. Financial Disclosure. COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel Financial Disclosure for Companies Related to COVID-19 Treatment or Diagnostics. https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/panel-financial-disclosure/

 

[Warrior]

I have repeatedly said that some of the lessons learned from the pandemic should carry on long after any vaccine and/or eradication.

I still find it difficult to comprehend we used to simply lined up right next to each other, ignoring personal space and privacy. The same goes for hand washing, it is almost nauseating to think how often people did not wash their hands before all of this.

As for masks? I have never had a problem wearing one and to be honest I never understood those that had a problem with wearing one.

There seems to be a grey area now between asking people to wear a mask and people claiming it's infringing on their rights.

I wonder if during WWII in this country when they were rationing things like gasoline and there were shortages of things if people felt like not getting certain things they normally got was also an infringement on their rights?

If everyone in the world gets the COVID vaccine, would COVID completely go away? They claim the most effective vaccine to date is about 95% effective, so does that mean my 88 year old Mother and my girlfriend who has asthma stand a 5% chance of getting COVID even with the vaccine because others refuse to get it?

So as long as people refuse to get the COVID vaccine, does that mean COVID, like the flu, is here to stay?

I also wonder if everyone in the world got a flu shot, would the flu go away? Not sure about that one; I'd ask my Dad what he thinks, but he died from complications from the flu and getting pneumonia; you know, because someone who refused to get the flu shot got it and gave it to him.

 

[Combat]

Todd,

Sorry if I caused offence to you or any other person that has reservations about being vaccinated. Please treat any of my comments about conspiracy theorists as being aimed at some of the links provided by some forum members, I did not intend to label actual Forum members with the Conspiracy Theorist tag.

I note that very few forum members say they will get the Covid19 shot or even regular Flu shots. That is for each person to decide, my recent Flu shot was only the Third Flu shot in my life as I rarely get the Flu. I just had this jab to visit my Mother in Law in a nursing home as they won't allow visitors that can't provide proof of a Flu vaccination.

However I feel the vaccination issue will be important in how we fight this Virus and hope that people won't be scared of being vaccinated. People will make up their own minds about a vaccination, same as any other life decisions. Personally I try to make my decisions based on known facts, which is why I encourage members to check their sources before posting any links etc.

Unfortunately, those that decide not to get the flu or COVID vaccines are not just placing themselves at risk. If they were doing so, then we could just let Darwinism run its course. Those folks put everyone at risk. The flu vaccine works. It is safe. Thousands of people die needlessly each year including many "healthy" people and young children due to the decision of many people not to take it based on false information. Those are just indisputable scientific facts. No need to apologize to anyone for supporting the facts. There are very vocal conspiracy theorists who tout false and misleading information about vaccines. This is not like discussing what is our favorite ice cream in which everyone has equally valid opinions. It is a matter of life and death in which there is no scientific dispute as to the solution. Everyone may be entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are entitled to the same weight.

 

[jazzeum]

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”

— Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

[Louis Badolato]

The following links may be of assistance to members.

Confirmation Bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or Values. People tend to unconsciously select information that supports their views, but ignoring non-supportive information. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs.


Confirmation Bias Wiki Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Snopes is a handy site to verify Subjects, Rumors, Memes etc on the Internet

Snopes Link https://www.snopes.com/collections/tall-tales-about-vaccines/

Matt,

Thank you for providing the term "Confirmation Bias." Yesterday, I was having a conversation with my wife about how it seemed that everybody could point to some media report to support their position, even when, often, these reports were far more equivocable than the people citing them would let on. I believe that on polarizing issues (here in the United States virtually every issue has become polarized) confirmation bias is a very real problem that prevents people from openly considering the facts underlying the issues. People come to as issue with a pre-decided opinion, and then cite to whichever media source (here in the United States, the media sources are quite clearly either conservative or liberal, and every report we receive is an editorial with spin, and very few unbiased facts ever reported) supports their pre-decided opinion. It would be wonderful if the use of the term "Confirmation Bias" would become commonplace, and people would wake up to what they are doing, and look for unbiased facts rather than slanted reporting. Unfortunately, I still have no idea where to find such unbiased factual reporting in the American media.

 

[Warrior]

Matt,

Thank you for providing the term "Confirmation Bias." Yesterday, I was having a conversation with my wife about how it seemed that everybody could point to some media report to support their position, even when, often, these reports were far more equivocable than the people citing them would let on. I believe that on polarizing issues (here in the United States virtually every issue has become polarized) confirmation bias is a very real problem that prevents people from openly considering the facts underlying the issues. People come to as issue with a pre-decided opinion, and then cite to whichever media source (here in the United States, the media sources are quite clearly either conservative or liberal, and every report we receive is an editorial with spin, and very few unbiased facts ever reported) supports their pre-decided opinion. It would be wonderful if the use of the term "Confirmation Bias" would become commonplace, and people would wake up to what they are doing, and look for unbiased facts rather than slanted reporting. Unfortunately, I still have no idea where to find such unbiased factual reporting in the American media.

Like my conspiracy theorist cousin; I sent him a link to the story about how the herd immunity idea has been a dumpster fire in Sweden and a vaccine might not even save that country......his reply: "well my sources tell me differently."

What sources are those, the National Enquirer?

 

[ivanmoe]

Like my conspiracy theorist cousin; I sent him a link to the story about how the herd immunity idea has been a dumpster fire in Sweden and a vaccine might not even save that country......his reply: "well my sources tell me differently."

What sources are those, the National Enquirer?

These are the latest numbers for Sweden:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

True, they've got a lot of cases.

However, the country's 7-Day Average of Deaths/Day is 17 and declining.

That's the equivalent of perhaps 500 in the USA.

Sorry if my focus on numbers seems vulgar or callous.

It's just the way that my mind works.

-Moe

 

[Warrior]

These are the latest numbers for Sweden:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

True, they've got a lot of cases.

However, the country's 7-Day Average of Deaths/Day is 17 and declining.

That's the equivalent of perhaps 500 in the USA.

Sorry if my focus on numbers seems vulgar or callous.

It's just the way that my mind works.

-Moe

Yeah I have no clue what you're talking about regarding being vulgar or callous.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Todd,

Sorry if I caused offence to you or any other person that has reservations about being vaccinated. Please treat any of my comments about conspiracy theorists as being aimed at some of the links provided by some forum members, I did not intend to label actual Forum members with the Conspiracy Theorist tag.

I note that very few forum members say they will get the Covid19 shot or even regular Flu shots. That is for each person to decide, my recent Flu shot was only the Third Flu shot in my life as I rarely get the Flu. I just had this jab to visit my Mother in Law in a nursing home as they won't allow visitors that can't provide proof of a Flu vaccination.

However I feel the vaccination issue will be important in how we fight this Virus and hope that people won't be scared of being vaccinated. People will make up their own minds about a vaccination, same as any other life decisions. Personally I try to make my decisions based on known facts, which is why I encourage members to check their sources before posting any links etc.

Oz mate all good my end and thanks for your reply. I’m certainly not offended and my post wasn’t aimed at any one person either.

I’m all for a robust discussion but felt some language and attitudes were beginning to marginalise those with differing opinions.

Common sense tells me I should be spending way more time enjoying the hobby than allowing myself to be drawn into such threads. However the immunisation issue is of deep personal interest to me and has been for over 25yrs now.

I’m not going to divulge any further on that aspect, but lets just say I’ve spent much of my adult life researching the topic long before Covid appeared. I’ve always tried to take an holistic view on the subject which has led me down many paths, however my findings have often left me with more questions than answers.

My message is simply about ‘caution’ when it comes to vaccines.

Even now authorities around the globe are preparing for the surge of adverse effects regarding these new Covid vaccines.

This is a fact and many countries are already in the process of developing IA technology to help monitor the expected fallout.

I have absolutely no desire to fall out with members or cause derision and conflict. I deal with enough of that in my day job, but I would stress before you line up for the jab make sure you’re done your homework.

Kindest Regards.

 

[Warrior]

Today the state of Rhode Island announced their hospitals are maxed out for COVID cases, they are sending patients to either MA or CT for hospital care for the time being................their governor is considering a shelter in place for TWO weeks; ie, you go nowhere for two weeks to try to contain the spread.

If they start sending patients here to MA, our hospitals will get maxed out too, then what?

This thing is going from bad to worse and it's only December.

Holy smokes are we screwed.

 

[Combat]

I got an emergency alert on my cell phone last week about the virus. Kind of strange since this has been going on for months now. Hopefully that is not indicative of the timeliness of these alerts for other emergencies! Imagine someone getting that alert and saying what is this COVID virus all about? That explains all the people wearing masks etc. :wink2:

 

[jazzeum]

Today the state of Rhode Island announced their hospitals are maxed out for COVID cases, they are sending patients to either MA or CT for hospital care for the time being................their governor is considering a shelter in place for TWO weeks; ie, you go nowhere for two weeks to try to contain the spread.

If they start sending patients here to MA, our hospitals will get maxed out too, then what?

This thing is going from bad to worse and it's only December.

Holy smokes are we screwed.

And the Thanksgiving surge hasn’t hit yet. That will take about five to seven days.

 

[OzDigger]

Oz mate all good my end and thanks for your reply. I’m certainly not offended and my post wasn’t aimed at any one person either.

I’m all for a robust discussion but felt some language and attitudes were beginning to marginalise those with differing opinions.

Common sense tells me I should be spending way more time enjoying the hobby than allowing myself to be drawn into such threads. However the immunisation issue is of deep personal interest to me and has been for over 25yrs now.

I’m not going to divulge any further on that aspect, but lets just say I’ve spent much of my adult life researching the topic long before Covid appeared. I’ve always tried to take an holistic view on the subject which has led me down many paths, however my findings have often left me with more questions than answers.

My message is simply about ‘caution’ when it comes to vaccines.

Even now authorities around the globe are preparing for the surge of adverse effects regarding these new Covid vaccines.

This is a fact and many countries are already in the process of developing IA technology to help monitor the expected fallout.

I have absolutely no desire to fall out with members or cause derision and conflict. I deal with enough of that in my day job, but I would stress before you line up for the jab make sure you’re done your homework.

Kindest Regards.

Toddy mate,

I'm sure it is no surprise to long term forum members that I also enjoy 'robust discussions'. I try not to get personal or offend but sometimes people take things the wrong way, most often when they have a personal issue with the subject. The language in my posts tends to be candid and sometimes 'sciency', which doesn't help I guess.

Vaccination is a hot button subject in my family. My eldest brother, recently turned 70, has a daughter that is high on the A.S.D. (Autism Spectrum Disorder) Scale. I suspect they continue to blame the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) and other vaccinations she had as a child despite the ever increasing evidence that A.S.D. is Hereditary. However we avoid discussing the subject as it's not worth the aggravation.

Even if few people accept vaccinations the population of each country will become naturally more immune over time, however I fear the worst is yet to come for some of us.

 

[Panzer ace]

I can’t help but feel like this current period in time is the perfect storm for this pandemic.

People have become complacent, it is the cold/flu season and a vaccine has made the general public think that they no longer need to worry.

Add in Thanksgiving and this surge is going to take some time to recede.

 

[nysoldiers]

And the Thanksgiving surge hasn’t hit yet. That will take about five to seven days.

I had surgery last week and was admitted to the hospital for two nights. I had my Covid test the day before the surgery. I was put on the post surgical floor and had a nice private room.
At 11:00pm that night they told all the surgical floor patients that they were being moved to another floor. It turns out they were preparing the floor (with special filtration systems) for the
coming surge. We were stuffed into small rooms with two to three other patients.
I can tell you that the many, many doctors,nurses and aides I spoke with were incensed that people still don't wear masks and take this seriously. Many had friends and associated who worked
on Covid wards and they can't forgive those who have helped spread this virus through ignorance, obstinance and pure selfishness.
My heart goes out to these frontline workers.

 

[jazzeum]

Hope it was nothing too serious Rich and glad you’re ok. When I was in the hospital in September overnight they put me in the Covid floor (while awaiting the results of my test). Every room had a huge blower to suck any bad air from the room and send it outside.

 

[Combat]

Among the many problems has been the inconsistent guidance from the "experts." A couple months ago they were saying kids shouldn't go back to school. It was reckless etc. Now many of those same experts are suggesting exactly the opposite even though nothing has changed in the intervening months. If anything, the number of cases has gotten much worse. But suddenly they are advising it is safe for kids to go back to school. It is bewildering. When all is said and done with this pandemic, there needs to be a complete review of the politicization of the "science" from quasi-political medical experts and how that has impacted this situation. They seem to have been making things up on the fly instead of having a plan. Pandemics have occurred throughout human history. Surely some health organization that has received millions in tax payer funding for just such a contingency should know what should be done when it happens instead of trying to figure it out from day to day and changing their minds back and forth.

 

[Warrior]

Among the many problems has been the inconsistent guidance from the "experts." A couple months ago they were saying kids shouldn't go back to school. It was reckless etc. Now many of those same experts are suggesting exactly the opposite even though nothing has changed in the intervening months. If anything, the number of cases has gotten much worse. But suddenly they are advising it is safe for kids to go back to school. It is bewildering. When all is said and done with this pandemic, there needs to be a complete review of the politicization of the "science" from quasi-political medical experts and how that has impacted this situation. They seem to have been making things up on the fly instead of having a plan. Pandemics have occurred throughout human history. Surely some health organization that has received millions in tax payer funding for just such a contingency should know what should be done when it happens instead of trying to figure it out from day to day and changing their minds back and forth.

Here are the US numbers;

March: 186,200
April: 883,199
May: 723,166
June: 845,736
July: 1,926,970
August: 1,479,756
September: 1,215,901
October: 1,940,522
November: 4,252,822

Needless to say, we're heading in the wrong direction, our Governor is thinking of shutting down all non essential businesses again. That sounds like a plan; I'm sure a lot of these cases are coming from hair salons and malls...............................:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

Thank Christ the vaccine is coming at some point this month. They should start with front line health care workers and elderly who are in assisted living facilities..................I read somewhere that currently in this country of roughly 330,000,000 there are only about 53,000,000 residents over the age of 65, that number seems low to me?

I also read somewhere they should be able to give vaccines to 20 million Americans a month, that seems like a low number considering again there are about 330,000,000 Americans; so it will take what, almost a year and a half to vaccinate everyone?

Oh wait; I forgot about all those who are not going to get it....................no problem, we'll be done in a couple of months then.