Mitch, It's all a question of which way you want to go as a manufacturer.....There really are only two options to create scale harmony.....Increase AFV's size to 1:28th or decrease figure size to "accurate" 1:30th in order to create proper balance between figures and AFV's. In my own K/C collection I own quite a few AFV's but many, many more figures.....It seems to me that K/C and CS would be better off increasing AFV size to match their figures rather then decrease figure size.....That seems to be the path that Brain and CS are taking (at least a step in the right direction). It is highly unlikely that K/C will make any adjustments at all as they have gotten away with scale inconsistency for years. Many collectors are now calling for proper scale. First Legion and recent Figarti AFV's are 1:30th... accurate...and marketed as such.
Have no idea what right size is anymore! (1 Viewer)
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Mitch
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Frank...
I agree that there really is only two options. However, raising size of AFV is the wrong one IMO. This hobby bases itself on the fact that its 1/30th Now some have tried to re-write the wheel in terms of scale but, I don't think one company can change the scale of the hobby. K&C may have been able to at one time with the pull they had, they may even have still I don't know but, I doubt that CS, with respect, can do that. I would add that nor can Figarti because they just don't produce enough product to heavily influence the market. I am not sure nor, are any collectors able to say if FL can however, there has not been a huge surge towards FL in terms of people turning their backs on K&C et al at least, if we are basing that on comments on this forum. I am also not sure how many are now actually calling for uniformity again, not a huge outcry on here even in PM where more gets said by many people!!!
K&C have always had large figures compared to the AFV's especially when they were producing 1/32nd sets and, the change to 1/30th was a good move for AFV's. I don't think they have ''gotten'' away with anything really in that I would venture that more collectors prefer the larger figures to having smaller ones. If that were not so then, we would have seen the figures become smaller over time and, it would have been easy when they changed to actual 1/30th AFV's around 2007 (ish).
Its a fact that we always have these discussions in this manufacturers thread though and, it may have been easier to say right for the collectors who want compatibility with the larger figures of TG, K&C and, CS here are larger AFV's from now on. Too much confusion caused by semantics etc and, a few actually believing in scales that make no sense for me.
Mitch
I agree that there really is only two options. However, raising size of AFV is the wrong one IMO. This hobby bases itself on the fact that its 1/30th Now some have tried to re-write the wheel in terms of scale but, I don't think one company can change the scale of the hobby. K&C may have been able to at one time with the pull they had, they may even have still I don't know but, I doubt that CS, with respect, can do that. I would add that nor can Figarti because they just don't produce enough product to heavily influence the market. I am not sure nor, are any collectors able to say if FL can however, there has not been a huge surge towards FL in terms of people turning their backs on K&C et al at least, if we are basing that on comments on this forum. I am also not sure how many are now actually calling for uniformity again, not a huge outcry on here even in PM where more gets said by many people!!!
K&C have always had large figures compared to the AFV's especially when they were producing 1/32nd sets and, the change to 1/30th was a good move for AFV's. I don't think they have ''gotten'' away with anything really in that I would venture that more collectors prefer the larger figures to having smaller ones. If that were not so then, we would have seen the figures become smaller over time and, it would have been easy when they changed to actual 1/30th AFV's around 2007 (ish).
Its a fact that we always have these discussions in this manufacturers thread though and, it may have been easier to say right for the collectors who want compatibility with the larger figures of TG, K&C and, CS here are larger AFV's from now on. Too much confusion caused by semantics etc and, a few actually believing in scales that make no sense for me.
Mitch
The Military Workshop
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Vezzolf,
You frequently express your opinion (or it could be a fact) that FL figures and vehicles are true 1/30 scale. So assuming that is correct and WW2 figures are 1/30 what scale is the FL Crusader series ? I recall a very good photograph showing 5 or 6 FL figures from different series and there were clearly differences even though all are marketed as 1/30.
Of all the series forum comments and images suggest to me the Crusaders must be bigger than the FL WW2 figures. However I believe all series are marketed as 1/30. If they are bigger than other FL series then perhaps it was a decision to make them more compatable with K&C figures and hence increase their saleability (a smart move as far as I am concerned). I have some FL boxes of early Naps which indicate the contents were 54mm but sometime later the web page changed to indicate FL Naps were 60mm. This would suggest scales have changed somewhere.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this since you frequently claim FL is the only brand that is scale accurate. From what I have seen they can not all be true 1/30 / 60mm.
My apologies to CS fans and those enjoying the scale debate in this thread but I think it is fair comment since Vezzolf so frequently mentions the scale accuracy of FL in so many non FL threads.
Regards
Brett
PS If anybody knows where that image is perhaps you could assist Vezzolf by posting it here.
Mitch
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Brett..
They are bigger as I have crusades and samurai from FL. Don't know about other non WWII ranges at all
Mitch
They are bigger as I have crusades and samurai from FL. Don't know about other non WWII ranges at all
Mitch
The Military Workshop
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Mitch,
I have never seen one in the flesh but they are clearly bigger. The question is can Vezzolf actually see what others can and still maintain his "fact" that FL are true to scale and as marketed ? Some might even think FL followed K&C and compromised their "scale" accuracy in order to improve sales (as I said the smart thing to do).
Brett
I have never seen one in the flesh but they are clearly bigger. The question is can Vezzolf actually see what others can and still maintain his "fact" that FL are true to scale and as marketed ? Some might even think FL followed K&C and compromised their "scale" accuracy in order to improve sales (as I said the smart thing to do).
Brett
Brett, I will try to address your comments. It is true that some of FL crusaders are a SLIGHT bit larger then their WWII figures. But I think that is not the issue. Within the FL WWII range there is consistency. Thats all we are asking for as collectors.....I really don't care whether or not a FL NAPS or FL Crusader figure matches my WWII series since they will obviously never be displayed together.....but I do care if WWII figures are out of scale with the WWII AFV's especially if they are comming from the same manufacturer.That is the issue and that what is being discussed. First Legion WWII series is accurate 1:30th scale...Thats a fact.....It is also a fact that K/C and CS are 1:28th for figures. Again I don't think that CS making 1:28th scale AFV's is a bad idea since their figure size is likely to remain at 1:28th....again its all about being consistent within the product line. K/C will remain with 1:28th scale figures and 1:30th scale AFV's most likely because that's what they do....But it is not consistent even within their own product line.... some collectors don't care..BUT...many do care... since the figures are too large for the tanks....I will likely purchase a CS Tiger Tank soon to try it with my older 1:28th K/C figures. I think they will match well with CS 1:28th Tanks. To quote porky pig:That's All Folks
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The Military Workshop
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Frank,
So the FL WW2 are marketed and scaled correctly but some other FL are not. Glad we cleared that up.
That is why the scale debates, to me anyway, are not that interesting as simply too many variables to consider. For example no point being same scale if painting style different between brands. My experience is that compatability with other brands is a factor but how much can vary between collectors. Being compatable with a brand that has already started a similar series will give a manufacturer a head start if collectors can mix their existing figures with the newer series from another brand.
For example I would personally not put a Britains Nap with K&C, CS or TG Naps as they are smaller. I think CS and K&C WW2 figures are different styles. Likewise I think the style of Britains and Jenkins Sudan figures are different even though the British they are doing are the same Regiments. For shop purposes I do have some in the same display. However I do have some collectors who happily mix and match and that is entirely up to them.
I was talking to a collector today and he has a lot of armour from K&C, TG, CS, Figarti and FL. He was telling me some vehicles he can mix and match but others he will not. Cant remember the examples he gave but it was like TG X vehicle will go with FL Y vehicle but would not put another TG vehicle with such and such a FL or Figarti and so on. It is not just size but also style and colour of painting that affected his thinking.
As far as collecting goes each collector makes his own decisions how he spends his hard earned money. However it appears there are some who like to belittle others collecting choices which is quite sad.
Regards
Brett
So the FL WW2 are marketed and scaled correctly but some other FL are not. Glad we cleared that up.
That is why the scale debates, to me anyway, are not that interesting as simply too many variables to consider. For example no point being same scale if painting style different between brands. My experience is that compatability with other brands is a factor but how much can vary between collectors. Being compatable with a brand that has already started a similar series will give a manufacturer a head start if collectors can mix their existing figures with the newer series from another brand.
For example I would personally not put a Britains Nap with K&C, CS or TG Naps as they are smaller. I think CS and K&C WW2 figures are different styles. Likewise I think the style of Britains and Jenkins Sudan figures are different even though the British they are doing are the same Regiments. For shop purposes I do have some in the same display. However I do have some collectors who happily mix and match and that is entirely up to them.
I was talking to a collector today and he has a lot of armour from K&C, TG, CS, Figarti and FL. He was telling me some vehicles he can mix and match but others he will not. Cant remember the examples he gave but it was like TG X vehicle will go with FL Y vehicle but would not put another TG vehicle with such and such a FL or Figarti and so on. It is not just size but also style and colour of painting that affected his thinking.
As far as collecting goes each collector makes his own decisions how he spends his hard earned money. However it appears there are some who like to belittle others collecting choices which is quite sad.
Regards
Brett
Mitch
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Lets not confuse this issue with talk of paint, detail accuracy etc as its not about this and, we are sailing as usual towards the great pointless debate about mine is better than yours or, your company also gets things wrong or, more than mine!! This will only lead to the thread pulled or people removed unnecessarily. Even mixing manufacturers to a point is not relevant as we are, with Michael posting the thread, talking about compatibility within one manufacturers releases
For many scale is important and should be discussed as its an important part of a hobby that declares itself to be 1/30th.
Mitch
For many scale is important and should be discussed as its an important part of a hobby that declares itself to be 1/30th.
Mitch
Despite my concise, clear, and honest answer to Brett (Military Workshop)regarding scale...He continues to try to "cloud the issues" this is not surprising to any of us. He has his own agenda as a dealer......I strongly re-affirm my post #29 as being accurately stated and totally HONEST.....Read it again and fellow collectors decide for yourselves....To each their own and enjoy your collections........Best Regards to all. Frank
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Firebat
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I have not got the patience to read all of the posts so here is my blanket statement.
I dont who dreamed up this bigger figures smaller AFV's concept, but I think any sane person would think that it is absurd.
And scale is an absolute, so any manufacturer who is not doing it right............Start doing it right.
This stuff is expensive and manufacturers are not Gods, believe it or not. But they can all do excellent work, and we need to provoke them to do it.
If you are sick of this scale discussion and you like out of scale junk, then you enjoy it, and dont get involved in this conversation. Those of us who don't like it are allowed to not like it.
Alex
I dont who dreamed up this bigger figures smaller AFV's concept, but I think any sane person would think that it is absurd.
And scale is an absolute, so any manufacturer who is not doing it right............Start doing it right.
This stuff is expensive and manufacturers are not Gods, believe it or not. But they can all do excellent work, and we need to provoke them to do it.
If you are sick of this scale discussion and you like out of scale junk, then you enjoy it, and dont get involved in this conversation. Those of us who don't like it are allowed to not like it.
Alex
The Military Workshop
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Frank,
Just as I as a dealer may have an agenda, as I only sell particular brands, lets not pretend you do not have one either.
Last post from me in this thread so apologies for the minor diversion.
As Frank says To each their own and enjoy your collections........
Brett
Alex, Just becuase you prefer one way does not mean the other is "junk".
Firebat
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Alex, Just becuase you prefer one way does not mean the other is "junk".[/QUOTE]
Brett... Sorry I will not tolerate what I dont like, and I make no apologies, remember I am not targeting any manufacturer I am targeting all of them, when they cant pull this simple aspect of the hobby together.......Making everything compatible is not rocket science......It has no downside.....
I am personally in this hobby for detail and scale and that is what I will push for and support, no compromises. That is what a forum is for...free speech. If you like all different sizes and stuff that does not fit with each other, then you must be loving where this hobby is now. Alex
Brett... Sorry I will not tolerate what I dont like, and I make no apologies, remember I am not targeting any manufacturer I am targeting all of them, when they cant pull this simple aspect of the hobby together.......Making everything compatible is not rocket science......It has no downside.....
I am personally in this hobby for detail and scale and that is what I will push for and support, no compromises. That is what a forum is for...free speech. If you like all different sizes and stuff that does not fit with each other, then you must be loving where this hobby is now. Alex
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Firebat
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I take back the word "Junk" it is stuff that does not suit my interest and does not suit the interest of those who are looking for what I am looking for in this hobby. Alex
jazzeum
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No offense taken as beauty is in the eye of the beholder :smile2:
I understand your perspective but isnt it posssible that manufacturers may not want compatability or equivalence. After all they want you to buy their products, not a competitor's. if there is equivalence you could match as you please. I think you probably find this in other industries. Let's not forget this is a business first and foremost.
I understand your perspective but isnt it posssible that manufacturers may not want compatability or equivalence. After all they want you to buy their products, not a competitor's. if there is equivalence you could match as you please. I think you probably find this in other industries. Let's not forget this is a business first and foremost.
See Brett.... Again as usual you are dead wrong I have no agenda but you most certainly do as a dealer and you make it quite obvious in your reactions to these threads....AT YOUR REQUEST...I explained my position clearly in regards to scale inconsistencies and differences of products that are quite apparent to those of us who care about this issue of scale.... It affects why & what some of us choose to purchase.
Good Point Brad...Your right... it is a business....and.....If manufacturers want our business they need to pay attention because they would have no business without buyers...With the high prices in this hobby most collectors are no longer settling for scale inconsistency and poorly made products. I think that is becomming more apparent especially with the greater competition among TS manufacturers.....its good for all manufacturers to get buyer feedback.
Rutledge
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I have worked in marketing and run numerous focus groups and other end user "feedback" programs. Some are helpful and some frankly are not. Customers have many varied opinions, and no company can meet them all. Companies succeed when they do faithfully what they do best, which hopefully meets the needs of one or more client segments.
Manufacturers are fairly aware, Im guessing, that they have to sales to survive.
They also have to have profits. If they cant make more money on their invested capital than they can in a 10 year treasury bond, why go to all the trouble? And if they get too greedy, competitors will come in and eliminate those "excess profits". Capitalism 101.Some people probably think Porsches should be bigger, slower and cheaper. Fortunately Porsche knows its target market best.
There are plenty of people in "this hobby" who dont build dioramas and care not a whit about scale variances among different manufacturers. I know because I am one. Thats my feedback. ^&grin
jager7080
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There are plenty of people in "this hobby" who dont build dioramas and care not a whit about scale variances among different manufacturers. I know because I am one. Thats my feedback.
I think that is exactly where & why the line is being drawn...There are those in this hobby that are building dioramas & in Alex's case need to have every piece be in scale to pull off their historic display's...That is understandable from their point of view...I have been collecting toy soldiers & building models for over 20 years...I collect,build & repaint 1/35 ,1/32 & 1/30...Over time your collection grows from all corners & manners...Do i wish everything i had was all perfectly the same scale ? Sure i would , but that is not really the way it is or has been...Not that i can speak for the majority but the vibe i have gotten is people buy what they like for theme or looks or uniqueness...If you like a piece or something you haven't seen before would you say " No i am not going to buy that Polish Cavalry or Hungarian WW2 figure because he is not truelly 1/30th or 1/28th ? i am not that person...i enjoy the variety & uniqueness of everything i own...Even if this hobby decided tommorrow to up & up change direction & everybody made exactly the same scale in every way imaginable...does that mean everything i have collected through my life goes in the trash because the scale is not correct ?
Just my thoughts...
Joe
I think that is exactly where & why the line is being drawn...There are those in this hobby that are building dioramas & in Alex's case need to have every piece be in scale to pull off their historic display's...That is understandable from their point of view...I have been collecting toy soldiers & building models for over 20 years...I collect,build & repaint 1/35 ,1/32 & 1/30...Over time your collection grows from all corners & manners...Do i wish everything i had was all perfectly the same scale ? Sure i would , but that is not really the way it is or has been...Not that i can speak for the majority but the vibe i have gotten is people buy what they like for theme or looks or uniqueness...If you like a piece or something you haven't seen before would you say " No i am not going to buy that Polish Cavalry or Hungarian WW2 figure because he is not truelly 1/30th or 1/28th ? i am not that person...i enjoy the variety & uniqueness of everything i own...Even if this hobby decided tommorrow to up & up change direction & everybody made exactly the same scale in every way imaginable...does that mean everything i have collected through my life goes in the trash because the scale is not correct ?
Just my thoughts...
Joe
wayne556517
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I think to much consistensy they all look like bro,s Frank............................^&grin
Joke mate joke don't get them twisted.