Have no idea what right size is anymore! (2 Viewers)

[Warrior]

I understand your perspective but isnt it posssible that manufacturers may not want compatability or equivalence. After all they want you to buy their products, not a competitor's. if there is equivalence you could match as you please. I think you probably find this in other industries. Let's not forget this is a business first and foremost.

I've stayed out of this discussion until I read this; BINGO, GIVE THE MAN A CIGAR.

Best example I can give to all of you is wargaming figures.

Back in the 1970's, 20mm was the scale of choice, 20mm from the soles of the feet to the eyeballs, that is the standard measurement.

There were several companies that produced figures and had a firm hold on the market, most everyone bought their figures from them.


Then a couple of new companies came upon the scene and guess what they did, they came out with 15mm and 25mm figures; IE, nobody is going to buy 20mm from us, so let's just create a new scale and have wargamers buy OUR figures.

Then 28mm figures came out, then 12mm, then 10mm, then 6mm, then 40mm, then 18mm, on and on it goes.

And guess what folks; FOR THE MOST PART, one companies 25mm figures are slightly bigger than anothers, ones 15mm figures are bigger than anothers.

WHY YOU ASK?

Because again; THEY WANT YOU TO BUY THEIR FIGURES, NOT MIX AND MATCH THEM WITH OTHER COMPANIES.

There is a term for it; it's called scalecreep.

It's the same thing with toy soldier companies; they are in business to make money, not in business for their figures and vehicles to go along with somone elses items; from a business standpoint, it makes no sense whatsoever.

If you expect company A's King Tiger in 1/30th scale to be the same size as company B's, you are going to be disappointed.

If you are a scale fanatic that wants everything from everyone in a certain scale to mix and match, you are out of luck.

If you want all your vehicles the same size and all the figures the same size in your dioramas, then my suggestion is buy all K & C, all First Legion, all Collectors Showcase, all Britains, all whatever. You'll be able to relax and enjoy the hobby that way. Demanding companies all make product so it all mixes and matches is a fools game, not going to happen for the reason Brad stated.

And I hate to break it to some of you, but take a look at a line of human beings at the next reenactment you go to; not everyone is the same height and weight, it's impossible.

As far as myself; as many of you know, I collect 20mm figures. Within the 20mm market, if there are 10 different companies that make ACW figures, half of them are big or small 20mm, virtually no two are alike.

In my WWII collection, I have some 1/72nd scale vehicles, some 1/76th scale vehicles and even some 1/87th scale vehicles; I buy what I like and collect what I like. If Hasegawa doesn't make a 1/72nd scale Elefant, I buy the 1/76th scale Fujimi model instead, it's a bit smaller, but really, all that matters is I have one in my collection.

I buy the figures I like, end of story, end of discussion. In my collection, I have true 20mm figures, big 20mm, small 20mm, small 25mm, big 18mm, I mix and match and use all of them in my dioramas.

All I care about is collecting the figures and enjoying them, I'd have a stroke if I got out a ruler and measured every vehicle and every figure.

Now if you want to talk about scale consistency within the same company from figure to figure and vehicle to vehicle, then that is a horse of a different color................................

 

[Mitch]

George...

I don't think I agree. Its not a case about manufacturers making their sets in different scales to increase sales. I can't believe that for a moment when we are talking about something as exact as scale. Its either 1/30th or, its not. You cannot play around with exact measurements. We are talking though, it has gone off on a lot of tangents about one company not a mix and match. I can fully appreciate a manufacturer doing their own paint and sculpt style as this is what is done and, creates the aesthetic differences that people think I like that better than X so, I will collect from now on.

If that's the case why do we have the hobby under the banner of 1/30th? we may as well say well, your going to get some good products in whatever scale we think will sell best. There is quite a lot of industry compatibility as it stands. FL, Figarti and K&C, TG do 1/30th scale AFV's as a norm now CS do on the whole. The disparity comes for some with TG, K&C and CS all doing figures in a larger format roughly, 1/28th. for me, this shows some uniformity across the board.
Mitch

I've stayed out of this discussion until I read this; BINGO, GIVE THE MAN A CIGAR.

Best example I can give to all of you is wargaming figures.

Back in the 1970's, 20mm was the scale of choice, 20mm from the soles of the feet to the eyeballs, that is the standard measurement.

There were several companies that produced figures and had a firm hold on the market, most everyone bought their figures from them.


Then a couple of new companies came upon the scene and guess what they did, they came out with 15mm and 25mm figures; IE, nobody is going to buy 20mm from us, so let's just create a new scale and have wargamers buy OUR figures.

Then 28mm figures came out, then 12mm, then 10mm, then 6mm, then 40mm, then 18mm, on and on it goes.

And guess what folks; FOR THE MOST PART, one companies 25mm figures are slightly bigger than anothers, ones 15mm figures are bigger than anothers.

WHY YOU ASK?

Because again; THEY WANT YOU TO BUY THEIR FIGURES, NOT MIX AND MATCH THEM WITH OTHER COMPANIES.

There is a term for it; it's called scalecreep.

It's the same thing with toy soldier companies; they are in business to make money, not in business for their figures and vehicles to go along with somone elses items; from a business standpoint, it makes no sense whatsoever.

If you expect company A's King Tiger in 1/30th scale to be the same size as company B's, you are going to be disappointed.

If you are a scale fanatic that wants everything from everyone in a certain scale to mix and match, you are out of luck.

If you want all your vehicles the same size and all the figures the same size in your dioramas, then my suggestion is buy all K & C, all First Legion, all Collectors Showcase, all Britains, all whatever. You'll be able to relax and enjoy the hobby that way. Demanding companies all make product so it all mixes and matches is a fools game, not going to happen for the reason Brad stated.

And I hate to break it to some of you, but take a look at a line of human beings at the next reenactment you go to; not everyone is the same height and weight, it's impossible.

As far as myself; as many of you know, I collect 20mm figures. Within the 20mm market, if there are 10 different companies that make ACW figures, half of them are big or small 20mm, virtually no two are alike.

In my WWII collection, I have some 1/72nd scale vehicles, some 1/76th scale vehicles and even some 1/87th scale vehicles; I buy what I like and collect what I like. If Hasegawa doesn't make a 1/72nd scale Elefant, I buy the 1/76th scale Fujimi model instead, it's a bit smaller, but really, all that matters is I have one in my collection.

I buy the figures I like, end of story, end of discussion. In my collection, I have true 20mm figures, big 20mm, small 20mm, small 25mm, big 18mm, I mix and match and use all of them in my dioramas.

All I care about is collecting the figures and enjoying them, I'd have a stroke if I got out a ruler and measured every vehicle and every figure.

Now if you want to talk about scale consistency within the same company from figure to figure and vehicle to vehicle, then that is a horse of a different color................................

 

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

Much to my regret, Mitch and Sammy have been excused from this discussion.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Firebat]

We all have to do what we have to do......It is not a life or death situation.....I would prefer that things were more compatible, but in my previous post I showed you how I deal with it.

As George says people come in different sizes, but as Ken Osen has said, in creating figures it is about proportion and that is another subject. Helmet, gun, canteen sizes etc.

So where George is right about physical height differences, which are acceptable and realistic, then you run into proportion differences which is a different subject and that can throw compatibility off.

I am not going to loose sleep over this, but I will do what I can to try to move things in the direction I and a growing number of others prefer.

I feel very strong about detail in this hobby and I hope that my conversation in this thread was informative and well tempered. Alex

 

[Rob]

I've stayed out of this discussion until I read this; BINGO, GIVE THE MAN A CIGAR.

Best example I can give to all of you is wargaming figures.

Back in the 1970's, 20mm was the scale of choice, 20mm from the soles of the feet to the eyeballs, that is the standard measurement.

There were several companies that produced figures and had a firm hold on the market, most everyone bought their figures from them.


Then a couple of new companies came upon the scene and guess what they did, they came out with 15mm and 25mm figures; IE, nobody is going to buy 20mm from us, so let's just create a new scale and have wargamers buy OUR figures.

Then 28mm figures came out, then 12mm, then 10mm, then 6mm, then 40mm, then 18mm, on and on it goes.

And guess what folks; FOR THE MOST PART, one companies 25mm figures are slightly bigger than anothers, ones 15mm figures are bigger than anothers.

WHY YOU ASK?

Because again; THEY WANT YOU TO BUY THEIR FIGURES, NOT MIX AND MATCH THEM WITH OTHER COMPANIES.

There is a term for it; it's called scalecreep.

It's the same thing with toy soldier companies; they are in business to make money, not in business for their figures and vehicles to go along with somone elses items; from a business standpoint, it makes no sense whatsoever.

If you expect company A's King Tiger in 1/30th scale to be the same size as company B's, you are going to be disappointed.

If you are a scale fanatic that wants everything from everyone in a certain scale to mix and match, you are out of luck.

If you want all your vehicles the same size and all the figures the same size in your dioramas, then my suggestion is buy all K & C, all First Legion, all Collectors Showcase, all Britains, all whatever. You'll be able to relax and enjoy the hobby that way. Demanding companies all make product so it all mixes and matches is a fools game, not going to happen for the reason Brad stated.

And I hate to break it to some of you, but take a look at a line of human beings at the next reenactment you go to; not everyone is the same height and weight, it's impossible.

As far as myself; as many of you know, I collect 20mm figures. Within the 20mm market, if there are 10 different companies that make ACW figures, half of them are big or small 20mm, virtually no two are alike.

In my WWII collection, I have some 1/72nd scale vehicles, some 1/76th scale vehicles and even some 1/87th scale vehicles; I buy what I like and collect what I like. If Hasegawa doesn't make a 1/72nd scale Elefant, I buy the 1/76th scale Fujimi model instead, it's a bit smaller, but really, all that matters is I have one in my collection.

I buy the figures I like, end of story, end of discussion. In my collection, I have true 20mm figures, big 20mm, small 20mm, small 25mm, big 18mm, I mix and match and use all of them in my dioramas.

All I care about is collecting the figures and enjoying them, I'd have a stroke if I got out a ruler and measured every vehicle and every figure.

Now if you want to talk about scale consistency within the same company from figure to figure and vehicle to vehicle, then that is a horse of a different color................................

Very well said George, fully agree with your post here.

Rob

 

[Blowtorch]

Alex, when you go deeper into your theories, I just get more lost. I think scale is at conflict with your own subjective artistic desires in your mind.

If you want to be true to scale, you can match the entire world of K&C, TG, CS, HB & FIGARTI figs with CS current vehicles which are affordable and in your theatre of interest. At the other end of the spectrum, you have the small but growing FL range of figs that can be mated with the entire world of K&C, Figarti (both post 2005ish(?)), HB, old CS, & TG vehicles (and FL which really don't cost that much more than the competition anymore).

But I ask, being that you've already done many splendid dios with 1/28 figs & 1/30 vehicles, is it that critical?

 

[Firebat]

Alex, when you go deeper into your theories, I just get more lost. I think scale is at conflict with your own subjective artistic desires in your mind.

If you want to be true to scale, you can match the entire world of K&C, TG, CS, HB & FIGARTI figs with CS current vehicles which are affordable and in your theatre of interest. At the other end of the spectrum, you have the small but growing FL range of figs that can be mated with the entire world of K&C, Figarti (both post 2005ish(?)), HB, old CS, & TG vehicles (and FL which really don't cost that much more than the competition anymore).

But I ask, being that you've already done many splendid dios with 1/28 figs & 1/30 vehicles, is it that critical?

You are right, I outlined some of my favorite combinations, but all the combinations you spoke of work to some degree also.

Did you see the latest dio we did with 1/28th figures and 1/30th vehicles. Here it is. I think it looks good, but I will continue to lobby for what I believe in.

Wow I looked at the other thread concerning this subject ........ I am pulling out of this one before I say the wrong thing......Because if you dont agree with the main stream here ...Well........Done

talking, will just keep on doing what is right for me working within this "Artform" not Military Replicas "Artform" . .Alex

 

[Warrior]

We all have to do what we have to do......It is not a life or death situation.....I would prefer that things were more compatible, but in my previous post I showed you how I deal with it.

As George says people come in different sizes, but as Ken Osen has said, in creating figures it is about proportion and that is another subject. Helmet, gun, canteen sizes etc.

So where George is right about physical height differences, which are acceptable and realistic, then you run into proportion differences which is a different subject and that can throw compatibility off.

I am not going to loose sleep over this, but I will do what I can to try to move things in the direction I and a growing number of others prefer.

I feel very strong about detail in this hobby and I hope that my conversation in this thread was informative and well tempered. Alex

I think the bigger issue for collectors is different painting styles manufacturer by manufacturer; to me, different styles create a bigger issue than size. For someone like Alex who creates specific scenes, getting figures together from different manufacturers to blend together to create a story must be tough, much in the same way Bob, aka UkReb, needs figures to blend together to tell his stories.

If you're a collector who just likes to put figures up on a shelf and admire them, it is easier for you to collect than for someone who makes dioramas IMO...........

 

[maddadicus]

I think the bigger issue for collectors is different painting styles manufacturer by manufacturer; to me, different styles create a bigger issue than size. For someone like Alex who creates specific scenes, getting figures together from different manufacturers to blend together to create a story must be tough, much in the same way Bob, aka UkReb, needs figures to blend together to tell his stories.

If you're a collector who just likes to put figures up on a shelf and admire them, it is easier for you to collect than for someone who makes dioramas IMO...........

Not sure if this is the thread I started. It has been so long since we discussed why the CS Stuart came out too large next to the CS Sherman. Both are listed as 1/30 scale but the Stuart is almost the same height as the Sherman model and near the same width, even though the real specs ( not Wiki )show a noticable difference in feet/inches...? Michael

 

[Blowtorch]

but I will continue to lobby for what I believe in.

but I'm not sure what that is. The hobby is split between two scales. Two companies have gone pure, CS with 1/28 & FL with 1/30. The others are mixing generally following the K&C model of 1/28 figs & 1/30 vehicles. Figarti does slightly smaller figs, but they are a lot closer to small people in K&C than large people in FL scale. Figarti has not changed their AFV scale. They have always been 1/30 to slightly smaller.

But I'm confused when you say you are lobbying for something approaching uniformity but exclude the market leader. Honestly I think we are lucky to be where we are. At least we got rid of the dreadful 1/32. Hopefully that is gone forever.

 

[Blowtorch]

Not sure if this is the thread I started. It has been so long since we discussed why the CS Stuart came out too large next to the CS Sherman. Both are listed as 1/30 scale but the Stuart is almost the same height as the Sherman model and near the same width, even though the real specs ( not Wiki )show a noticable difference in feet/inches...? Michael

Well the first thing I would do is track down a reputable source for finding the correct dimensions or at least the source of the discrepancy. You could try Kurt Laughlin over at Missing Lynx or maybe our own Gary Bender here. I never thought this hobby would reduce me down to taking a tape measure to museums.

 

[Panzer ace]

I have been reading this thread from distance for a while now. I do not collect CS, save for a few pieces here and there. I have to say though, relying on Wikipedia for information is kind of like relying on TMZ for world news headlines.

 

[Firebat]

but I'm not sure what that is. The hobby is split between two scales. Two companies have gone pure, CS with 1/28 & FL with 1/30. The others are mixing generally following the K&C model of 1/28 figs & 1/30 vehicles. Figarti does slightly smaller figs, but they are a lot closer to small people in K&C than large people in FL scale. Figarti has not changed their AFV scale. They have always been 1/30 to slightly smaller.

But I'm confused when you say you are lobbying for something approaching uniformity but exclude the market leader. Honestly I think we are lucky to be where we are. At least we got rid of the dreadful 1/32. Hopefully that is gone forever.

I did not exclude the market leader, I mention them quite a bit. For the record I stated they are the least likely to change. I also stated I have pieces of theirs I LOVE, but unfortunately have to get rid of,

because they do not fit into my new collecting profile.

I have a lot of K&C that I bought early on, I dont have to tell you they are well made with good painting, but I have grown and now I am looking for certain things that other companies are now offering....

This is a country of free speech and what some of you do to supress those with different thoughts from the main stream is deplorable, then you also state this kind of conversation takes

the fun out of the hobby. The discussion is a legitimate discussion about scale from which we can learn and grow and can actually make our hobby better. So you lighten up or dont

participate in the discussion.

What else is disgusting is you have made many afraid to participate on the Forum and that is not fair. I receive a ton of correspondence on my website regarding many topics including this one without a problem.

Alex

 

[Blowtorch]

I did not exclude the market leader,

From message 49, did I misunderstand something here? And I admit I may have...I do at times: "K&C is the biggest most popular manufacturer with a winning combination and a huge following, they will not and dont need to change anything."

 

[Blowtorch]

you have made many afraid

boo!

 

[HAWKEYE]

That is very possible, especially in regards to King and Country, their followers seem to like the bigger figure smaller AFV concept.

It is funny how one thinks though...... I was getting rid of all of my K&C for that reason, then CS made the bigger vehicles which were a good scale match so I kept some of my K&C figures and I am dumping most of my K&C AFV's. So that K&C concept increased my CS purchases. .........And on and on and on. Alex

well i for one would like the kc figures to match the vehicles. i get a little annoyed when some figures heads are taller than the decks on the vechicles they are standing next to. or when a vehicle is next to a figure and you know there is no way that that figure could fit into the vehicle. some vehicles are worse than others on this. as for fl. i don't know what all the excitement is with the figures as they appear shaded just alittle too dark for my tatses

 

[HAWKEYE]

Does that include real life scale?

you must be a foot taller than me, nice pics. actually i am talking more about the stuart as when i went to the big red 1 museum near chicago i couldn't believe how tall the rear deck on a stuart was. also i really think it also applies more to the panther and tiger tanks and varients that have been produced. i wasn't thinking about the chaffee or like a mkII or mk III tank. but thanks for the zinger , you got a chuckle out of me. take care --hawkeye

 

[Warrior]

I did not exclude the market leader, I mention them quite a bit. For the record I stated they are the least likely to change. I also stated I have pieces of theirs I LOVE, but unfortunately have to get rid of,

because they do not fit into my new collecting profile.

I have a lot of K&C that I bought early on, I dont have to tell you they are well made with good painting, but I have grown and now I am looking for certain things that other companies are now offering....

This is a country of free speech and what some of you do to supress those with different thoughts from the main stream is deplorable, then you also state this kind of conversation takes

the fun out of the hobby. The discussion is a legitimate discussion about scale from which we can learn and grow and can actually make our hobby better. So you lighten up or dont

participate in the discussion.

What else is disgusting is you have made many afraid to participate on the Forum and that is not fair. I receive a ton of correspondence on my website regarding many topics including this one without a problem.

Alex

Alex makes some interesting points from a collecting standpoint. His comment about his needs are changing and he's going in a different direction is interesting and one I do hear from collectors.

The more involved some people get in a hobby, often times the more their needs change.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

Think about the very first diorama you ever made Alex and what you used to make it vs the latest one you made, you'll see a huge difference I am sure.

I have many customers whos tastes have changed quite a bit from the time I started dealing with them till now, people growing and evolving in a hobby is what makes it fun.

From my own standpoint, items I bought ten years ago, even five years ago no longer interest me, I've either sold, disgarded or given away figures I painted way back then.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread here, Michael was initially concerned with the scale in his Stuart; maybe we should continue this discussion in another section of the forum..................

 

[Firebat]

Alex makes some interesting points from a collecting standpoint. His comment about his needs are changing and he's going in a different direction is interesting and one I do hear from collectors.

The more involved some people get in a hobby, often times the more their needs change.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

Think about the very first diorama you ever made Alex and what you used to make it vs the latest one you made, you'll see a huge difference I am sure.

I have many customers whos tastes have changed quite a bit from the time I started dealing with them till now, people growing and evolving in a hobby is what makes it fun.

From my own standpoint, items I bought ten years ago, even five years ago no longer interest me, I've either sold, disgarded or given away figures I painted way back then.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread here, Michael was initially concerned with the scale in his Stuart; maybe we should continue this discussion in another section of the forum..................

Thanks George...You have a way with words that I dont have. Alex


FIRST DIORAMA

LATEST

Yes I think we have hijacked this thread a bit and we can continue it elseware....But the answer is we all have out personal tastes and we have to respect everyones likes and dislikes. Alex

 

[maddadicus]

Well the first thing I would do is track down a reputable source for finding the correct dimensions or at least the source of the discrepancy. You could try Kurt Laughlin over at Missing Lynx or maybe our own Gary Bender here. I never thought this hobby would reduce me down to taking a tape measure to museums.

From a reference website that Gary uses...Sherman L 244", W 105",H 117"......StuartL 171", W 88",H 102". The CS models should have a 1/30 scale Height difference of 15" and 1/30 scale Width difference of 17", neither of which is represented. By the way the CS Stuart is also near the same height of my CS Panther which is supposed to be H 118"..Could show pics, but I am worn out from the battle...It is hard to dispute actual visuals if it even matters to most. Michael