John Wayne and the wrath of Bob! (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Rob, go see the Green Berets. The battle scenes are great. I never saw the Searchers, but with all this talk, I'll be on the lookout for it. My favorite JW movies would be, The Longest Day (top 3-war movie for me), The Horse Soldiers and the Alamo.

Hey Go for Broke,

I did enjoy the Horse Soldiers, thanks for reminding me of that one and yes the Alamo was good too:smile2:

Rob

 

[lancer]

I'm going to throw a hand grenade into the Mel Gibson discussion and say that I enjoyed "Attack Force Z" and the Gibson directed "Apocalypto", even if it was copied from "The Naked Prey".:wink2: -- Al

 

[Rob]

I'm going to throw a hand grenade into the Mel Gibson discussion and say that I enjoyed "Attack Force Z" and the Gibson directed "Apocalypto", even if it was copied from "The Naked Prey".:wink2: -- Al

To be fair Al I actually enjoyed the Lethal weapon films when I was younger and even 'What women want' had it's moments. I don't mind him to be honest, its just the taking of historical liberties in films that do an injustice to those who served in said historical moments that gets on my thrupenny bits. No one has even mentioned U571 yet!{eek3}:wink2:

Rob

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Rob,

Stick with the Duke he wont let you down unlike Mel whose best work was the Lethal Weapon Movies. Don't forget to look up the Fighting SeaBees as well as well as the Commancheros and Hondo which is a personal favorite for two reasons it was shot in 3D and Geraldine Paige need I say more...


Dave

 

[TomB]

Don't get me started my friend^&grin Gallipoli was a pile of unadulterated **** in my humble opinion. Then we have Braveheart and the Patriot two films of rare historical accuracy, enlightened outlook with real incidents not at all based on Nazi atrocities and brilliantly.....its no good I can't even type that without laughing into my drink! ^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin




Funny but now I think of it I have seen few of his non western/ War films (I enjoy Sands of Iwo Jima). Not seen McClintock, Ghengis Khan and I never watched that one where he is in Ireland and has an epic punch up, although have seen the fight scene.

Rob

The movie in Ireland was the Quiet Man...from memory...Maureen Ohara and the very loveable Victor McLahcon...not sure of the spelling....very good ..non warie movie...a quick note on the searchers.....from memory...Jeffery Hunter and Nat Woods both meet untimely ends....Jeffery died ..young..of a heart attack and Nat...drowned...in very suspicious circumstances ....saw the Searchers over 50 yrs ago and did not like it because it was not a John is John movie...cheers TomB

 

[Fubar]

Don't forget " THE SHOOTIST"
Though not a real Gibson fan I liked Braveheart, even if just for the BRUTAL Medieval battle scenes.Same goes for " We Were Soldiers" and I found Apocolypto disturbing and fascinating at the same time.
fuBaR

 

[UKReb]

Now not to upset my good friend Bob who is not only a true gent but also a fan of the Duke, but we gotta talk John here. Now I think he was superb in True Grit, really enjoyable in The Sons of Katie Elder and Rio Bravo is one of my fave Westerns which is due to him. But I am going to cause a religious outcry here, but I don't think The Searchers his best in my view({eek3}) I watched it again just the other day and I think he overacts quite badly in it as he did in The Longest Day. I am not saying he was not a good actor because he clearly could act, but I just think now and again he over did it. I saw him also recently in the Sands Of Iwo Jima and that was a difficult one as there was good and bad in that. I also think some of his performances were a little undermined by some of the characters they put with him, I enjoyed his cavalry movies (are they John Ford directing?) but the drunken Irish cavalry sgt often got a bit tedious. In True Grit he really acted but did not overacted and produced a wonderful performance, I think he made some terrific movies and was indeed a screen legend, but still not convinced re the Searchers.

Am I right or have I been inhaling sink cleaner again???

Rob

Rob

You're still my best Brit forum buddy therefore I am going to ignore the above sacrilegious statement as after all my fellow froggers have ably placed you back on the shelf but I'll just add- instead of Drano I would suggest a cup of drain cleaner to wash your mouth out ^&grin.

Out of the Duke's 280 plus movies there are indeed a plethora of clunkers amongst them and he could raise his right eyebrow a darn sight higher than Roger Moore could and continued to use that surprised expression- especially when talking to a lady- until Jack Ford told him to "stop that darn idiotic thing of yours of trying to lift your eyebrow up to your hairline".

Interesting comments here though with True Grit suggested as his best and The Green Berets as one of his worst. In fact both movies are inextricably linked.

I first watched True Grit on it's release in London and vividly remember the audience's reaction to the now famous climactic scene where Reuben. J. "Rooster" Cogburn (Wayne) confronts Ned Pepper's murderous bunch of desperadoes way across a beautiful Colorado meadow surrounded by evergreens and aspens. The scene begins with a magnificent long shot of the mounted characters followed by a close-up of Cogburn who announces that he intends bringing the whole gang to justice. Pepper (Robert Duvall) taunts "Bold talk for a one-eyed fat man". Close-up of an outraged Cogburn who shouts "Fill your hands, you SOB". With a Winchester rifle with looped lever in one hand, a Colt revolver in the other, holding the reins of his steed between his teeth Cogburn spurs the horse forward like some frontier jousting knight, firing his weapons and despatching the bad guys with good old-fashioned Wild West efficiency. The cinema audience began cheering and applauding, a truly memorable moment that perfectly encapsulated- for me- what the Wayne persona had become to mean to the vast majority of filmgoers across the globe-tough, dependable, resolute, indomitable, enduring and at that time one of the great screen legends in the history of Hollywood.

However, just one year before- with the release of The Green Berets -Wayne came close to being written off as a sixty year old anachronism by being completely out of synch with the huge American public sentiment against the Vietnam War. Under the tutelage of directors like Ford & Hawks, Wayne had developed and honed a character of the all American hero in the guise of an upright cavalry officer, a lone marshall, a tough marine etc. But where Wayne and his favourite directors strong conservative politics had served them well in their make believe war movies on earlier outings the national perception had now changed dramatically. It was a brave but foolhardy attempt to make a film that supported the U.S. armed forces that were still fighting a very unpopular war. He was shocked and hurt at the amount of vitriolic critiques from the media and the ridicule that was hurled at him and his movie immediately following it's release. Wayne, whose personal career success was always his top priority, knew he needed a new screen persona far removed from the likes of Colonel Mike Kirby, the days of portraying combat leaders had now long passed for him.

When the screen rights for Charles Portis's novel True Grit came on the market Wayne told his production company Batjac to buy it regardless of cost. But they were pipped by Hal B Wallis much to Wayne's bitter disappointment, but a few days later- completely out of the blue- Wallis offered him the star role. At their first meeting Wallis told Wayne that the Cogburn character would wear a moustache and an eye patch. The actor roared back "Hell, Hal, the fans pay to see me not some damm SOB who looks like a pirate in an Errol Flynn movie". The producer knew that his star, after 40 years in the business, had a formidable reputation for getting his own way but insisted the eye patch stayed while compromising on the moustache. He also knew he would definitely need a strong director. John Ford was his first choice but was far too ill and had not made a film for some years, eventually Wallis hired Henry Hathaway who had worked with Wayne numerous times before with both director and star having deep respect for each other. Hathaway quickly took charge and when Wayne objected again to wearing the eye patch he retorted "Listen, Duke, I'm in charge of the picture and you will do as I darn well say, so quit whining about it". Wayne retorted "Aw! Hell! Henry,.... well...... get me one like Pappy's (John Ford had lost the sight in his left eye due to cataracts and wore a black eye-patch)) and I'll wear the damm thing over the same eye as the Coach does"

The movie is not a work of art but it is the purest of westerns with a simple theme of revenge and justice. But Rooster Cogburn is not a Wayne character we initially recognise, he appears to be a complete alter ego of his usual classic frontier hero, here he is an old grizzled, pot-bellied, profane, one-eyed drunkard who given the distrust of the justice system he serves is more prone to shoot his quarries than arrest them. Glen Campbell is the only weak link in an outstanding ensemble of actors, not his fault as he was a better singer than he was an actor, Wallis had wanted Elvis Presley for the role, and the singer was very keen to play the part. But his Svengali manager "Colonel" Tom Parker had insisted his boy get top billing over the Duke and that was never going to happen-exit the Pelvis- which is a pity as that just might have been some performance to have seen

The film evolves into an American Odyssey- enhanced by Lucien Ballard's breath-taking cinematography of magnificent locations in South West Colorado.-But it is Wayne's movie and he clearly relishes his role as the menacing one eyed lawman. The highly literate script allows him to deliver a splendid reversal of his usual screen persona yet still retain his credibility as a tough, albeit more flawed than usual, frontier marshall and we are not disappointed when he metes out his rough around the edges justice. Wayne won the best actor Oscar for his portrayal of Cogburn but I believe, when one looks at the stiff competition for the actor award that year, that it was a sentimental gesture by the Academy due to some of his previous and much heralded performances having gone unrewarded.

In the closing scene of True Grit Cogburn bids Mattie farewell inviting her to come and see an old fat man sometime, then jumps his horse over a four rail fence letting out a final "Yaaa!". Wayne had found his new screen persona and he continued to play the same wise paternal figure to the younger character throughout the majority of his final dozen movies.

Bob

 

[Rob]

Bob,

Good to have you join us my friend, was starting to worry you wouldn't join in mate!^&grin:salute::

Superb scene that one Bob and there are a few Western scenes that have past into legend. The first confrontation between the magnificent seven and the bandits, Clint Eastwood's Fistful of Dollars ' I don't think its nice you laughing' scene etc. But that True Grit fill your hands scene is pure gold, never tire of seeing that. I can well imagine the audience cheering that one on and would love to have seen that. Another fave of mine involving the Duke is the one in which he poleaxes George Kennedy in The Sons of Katie Elder, always loved that one every Christmas!:salute::

This thread was posted tongue tongue firmly in cheek mate, I love some of his films and when I was growing up he WAS Westerns!

If you have a spare few Bob, what are your thought's on the Dukes Iwo Jima?

Rob

 

[maddadicus]

Rob

You're still my best Brit forum buddy therefore I am going to ignore the above sacrilegious statement as after all my fellow froggers have ably placed you back on the shelf but I'll just add- instead of Drano I would suggest a cup of drain cleaner to wash your mouth out ^&grin.

Out of the Duke's 280 plus movies there are indeed a plethora of clunkers amongst them and he could raise his right eyebrow a darn sight higher than Roger Moore could and continued to use that surprised expression- especially when talking to a lady- until Jack Ford told him to "stop that darn idiotic thing of yours of trying to lift your eyebrow up to your hairline".

Interesting comments here though with True Grit suggested as his best and The Green Berets as one of his worst. In fact both movies are inextricably linked.

I first watched True Grit on it's release in London and vividly remember the audience's reaction to the now famous climactic scene where Reuben. J. "Rooster" Cogburn (Wayne) confronts Ned Pepper's murderous bunch of desperadoes way across a beautiful Colorado meadow surrounded by evergreens and aspens. The scene begins with a magnificent long shot of the mounted characters followed by a close-up of Cogburn who announces that he intends bringing the whole gang to justice. Pepper (Robert Duvall) taunts "Bold talk for a one-eyed fat man". Close-up of an outraged Cogburn who shouts "Fill your hands, you SOB". With a Winchester rifle with looped lever in one hand, a Colt revolver in the other, holding the reins of his steed between his teeth Cogburn spurs the horse forward like some frontier jousting knight, firing his weapons and despatching the bad guys with good old-fashioned Wild West efficiency. The cinema audience began cheering and applauding, a truly memorable moment that perfectly encapsulated- for me- what the Wayne persona had become to mean to the vast majority of filmgoers across the globe-tough, dependable, resolute, indomitable, enduring and at that time one of the great screen legends in the history of Hollywood.

However, just one year before- with the release of The Green Berets -Wayne came close to being written off as a sixty year old anachronism by being completely out of synch with the huge American public sentiment against the Vietnam War. Under the tutelage of directors like Ford & Hawks, Wayne had developed and honed a character of the all American hero in the guise of an upright cavalry officer, a lone marshall, a tough marine etc. But where Wayne and his favourite directors strong conservative politics had served them well in their make believe war movies on earlier outings the national perception had now changed dramatically. It was a brave but foolhardy attempt to make a film that supported the U.S. armed forces that were still fighting a very unpopular war. He was shocked and hurt at the amount of vitriolic critiques from the media and the ridicule that was hurled at him and his movie immediately following it's release. Wayne, whose personal career success was always his top priority, knew he needed a new screen persona far removed from the likes of Colonel Mike Kirby, the days of portraying combat leaders had now long passed for him.

When the screen rights for Charles Portis's novel True Grit came on the market Wayne told his production company Batjac to buy it regardless of cost. But they were pipped by Hal B Wallis much to Wayne's bitter disappointment, but a few days later- completely out of the blue- Wallis offered him the star role. At their first meeting Wallis told Wayne that the Cogburn character would wear a moustache and an eye patch. The actor roared back "Hell, Hal, the fans pay to see me not some damm SOB who looks like a pirate in an Errol Flynn movie". The producer knew that his star, after 40 years in the business, had a formidable reputation for getting his own way but insisted the eye patch stayed while compromising on the moustache. He also knew he would definitely need a strong director. John Ford was his first choice but was far too ill and had not made a film for some years, eventually Wallis hired Henry Hathaway who had worked with Wayne numerous times before with both director and star having deep respect for each other. Hathaway quickly took charge and when Wayne objected again to wearing the eye patch he retorted "Listen, Duke, I'm in charge of the picture and you will do as I darn well say, so quit whining about it". Wayne retorted "Aw! Hell! Henry,.... well...... get me one like Pappy's (John Ford had lost the sight in his left eye due to cataracts and wore a black eye-patch)) and I'll wear the damm thing over the same eye as the Coach does"

The movie is not a work of art but it is the purest of westerns with a simple theme of revenge and justice. But Rooster Cogburn is not a Wayne character we initially recognise, he appears to be a complete alter ego of his usual classic frontier hero, here he is an old grizzled, pot-bellied, profane, one-eyed drunkard who given the distrust of the justice system he serves is more prone to shoot his quarries than arrest them. Glen Campbell is the only weak link in an outstanding ensemble of actors, not his fault as he was a better singer than he was an actor, Wallis had wanted Elvis Presley for the role, and the singer was very keen to play the part. But his Svengali manager "Colonel" Tom Parker had insisted his boy get top billing over the Duke and that was never going to happen-exit the Pelvis- which is a pity as that just might have been some performance to have seen

The film evolves into an American Odyssey- enhanced by Lucien Ballard's breath-taking cinematography of magnificent locations in South West Colorado.-But it is Wayne's movie and he clearly relishes his role as the menacing one eyed lawman. The highly literate script allows him to deliver a splendid reversal of his usual screen persona yet still retain his credibility as a tough, albeit more flawed than usual, frontier marshall and we are not disappointed when he metes out his rough around the edges justice. Wayne won the best actor Oscar for his portrayal of Cogburn but I believe, when one looks at the stiff competition for the actor award that year, that it was a sentimental gesture by the Academy due to some of his previous and much heralded performances having gone unrewarded.

In the closing scene of True Grit Cogburn bids Mattie farewell inviting her to come and see an old fat man sometime, then jumps his horse over a four rail fence letting out a final "Yaaa!". Wayne had found his new screen persona and he continued to play the same wise paternal figure to the younger character throughout the majority of his final dozen movies.

Bob

What he said..WOW! I am so glad for someone noticing the horse jump as an iconic moment in the movie and maybe " The Dukes " end of life. I am also a big fan of the Shootist, simple, but special in John Wayne saying goodbye to his fans..Michael

 

[lancer]

What he said..WOW! I am so glad for someone noticing the horse jump as an iconic moment in the movie and maybe " The Dukes " end of life. I am also a big fan of the Shootist, simple, but special in John Wayne saying goodbye to his fans..Michael

Really liked The Shootist. Great movie with a superb supporting cast. How do you beat Stewart and Bacall? A very apropos final movie for Wayne, and one of his best performances. -- Al

 

[trooper]

Although John Wayne is perhaps best known for his westerns IMO one of his best acting performances was in "Wings of Eagles", a film which is not often shown on television. Trooper

 

[TomB]

Although John Wayne is perhaps best known for his westerns IMO one of his best acting performances was in "Wings of Eagles", a film which is not often shown on television. Trooper

Was that the movie about the guy who landed his seaplane in a swim pool during an Admirals party and later when on to develop the "Jeep Carrier" ?....long time no see...but as I recall it was more an drama movie than an action movie...cheers TomB

 

[jazzeum]

Good analysis of the mid 60s political climate here and the Green Berets, which is an awful film and would have better suited for the 50s. The only thing memorable about the movie was the theme song by Sgt. Barry Sandler.

 

[lancer]

Was that the movie about the guy who landed his seaplane in a swim pool during an Admirals party and later when on to develop the "Jeep Carrier" ?....long time no see...but as I recall it was more an drama movie than an action movie...cheers TomB

That's the one. It is a bio-pic of Spig Wead, a US Naval aviator who was instrumental in promoting US naval aviation from early development through WW2. -- Al

 

[TomB]

That's the one. It is a bio-pic of Spig Wead, a US Naval aviator who was instrumental in promoting US naval aviation from early development through WW2. -- Al

Thanks for that.......I found it a interesting movie......The Quiet Man was another different JW movie I liked... I like his crumby early movies...the old BW cowboys...the early one's he made as he worked his way up the ladder...Stage Coach was a great Yipeee at the time (Still is) and Red River, later down the track.....I know he made heaps of BW movie's in various roles but Stage Coach and Red River I remember most,,,,regards TomB

 

[larso]

I have a thing for 'The Cowboys', where Wayne hires boys to acompany him on a long cattle drive. It is darkly violent and John Wane gets killed! A couple bits really stood out - the black cook about to be executed by the bandits, who prays ''Forgive me Lord for the men I have killed... and the men I am about to." Shiver! I also still chuckle at the scene where he is disrobing and all the boys are craning for a 'look', to which he says "Yes that's black too". I think Bruce Dern was the lead villian and he was great too.

The Wayne film I have the most trouble with is 'Fort Apache' - well the one where Henry Fonda is an absolute martinet and ultimately leads his men on a suicide charge, where they are wioed out in an unlikely Indian charge. Wayne survives, yet appears to revere his former commander! What gave with that! Almost none of that film made any sense! Arhhhh!!!!!

 

[UKReb]

The Wayne film I have the most trouble with is 'Fort Apache' - well the one where Henry Fonda is an absolute martinet and ultimately leads his men on a suicide charge, where they are wioed out in an unlikely Indian charge. Wayne survives, yet appears to revere his former commander! What gave with that! Almost none of that film made any sense! Arhhhh!!!!!

Filmgoers often tend to see what they want to see in Ford films and the ending of Fort Apache has caused quite a bit of confusion over the years. This is just my take on it although I'm not saying its correct.

Final Scene: Kirby York (Wayne) is entertaining a number of Eastern delegates in his office at the fort a few years after the final battle/massacre. One of the reporters gazes at a portrait of Colonel Thursday and calls him a great man and a great soldier. Kirby York pauses for a moment whilst no doubt reflecting on the truth then says "No man died more gallantly, nor won more honour for his regiment" His quotes are confirming the legend even though he and we as the audience know the legend is lie. But just as important to his endorsement of the myth of Thursday's Charge is the way Kirby rebukes another of the visitors who suggests that while Thursday's name lives on, the names of the men who died with him are forgotten.

"They are not forgotten" Kirby asserts "because they haven't died. They're living right out there" gesturing to the desert seen through the window. "They'll keep on living as long as the regiment lives. The faces and names may change but they are still the regiment, the regular army now and 50 years from now. They're better men than they used to be, Thursday did that and he made a command to be proud of".

Ford was a realist as well as a romantic Western poet. His Fort Apache doesn't question the right of command it simply acknowledges the complexities of command. What Ford is saying is sometimes lies are necessary to the flow of history and in this 1948 movie (which anticipates Ford's exposure of the falsified image of western heroism in more detail in his The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance) Thursday's legacy and those who died under his command are now integrated into institutional immortality rather than history recording the fact that the regiment was needlessly slaughtered due to an incompetent leader.

 

[larso]

Interesting.

Was the film then considering events of the Second World War and even earlier then? While the US was very much on the right side there were some appalling leaders and criminally executed battles (Pelileu, the Rapido - which decimated the Texas division from memory?). The idea that men killed in battle moves them into a hallowed half-death/half life (from living for ever in our memory) is as old as war itself I think. They're still actually dead of course, much to the pain of family but this process is intended to have a soothing effect on communities at large. I think the awfulness of the Fonda character probably blinded me to any deeper reading. And I was quite young.....

 

[maddadicus]

Interesting.

Was the film then considering events of the Second World War and even earlier then? While the US was very much on the right side there were some appalling leaders and criminally executed battles (Pelileu, the Rapido - which decimated the Texas division from memory?). The idea that men killed in battle moves them into a hallowed half-death/half life (from living for ever in our memory) is as old as war itself I think. They're still actually dead of course, much to the pain of family but this process is intended to have a soothing effect on communities at large. I think the awfulness of the Fonda character probably blinded me to any deeper reading. And I was quite young.....

My take on this movie was that this was Ford's version of Custer's last stand. It did not have the tenderness nor realism of his other 2 Cavalry movies..She Wore a Yellow Ribbon and Rio Grande.. The fact that the Apaches could muster enough braves to wipe out a regiment was always laughable to me..and lets not forget that once free of the canyon, Thursday heads back into the trap to die with his troops. Not my favorite Wayne vehicle..Michael

 

[lancer]

My take on this movie was that this was Ford's version of Custer's last stand. It did not have the tenderness nor realism of his other 2 Cavalry movies..She Wore a Yellow Ribbon and Rio Grande.. The fact that the Apaches could muster enough braves to wipe out a regiment was always laughable to me..and lets not forget that once free of the canyon, Thursday heads back into the trap to die with his troops. Not my favorite Wayne vehicle..Michael

Excellent point about the number of Apaches. Part of Apache survival was moving in small numbers. Harder to detect, much easier to conceal and supply. The Apache lived off the land and the land didn't supply much, certainly not enough to feed dozens of men at any given location. I really liked Fort Apache, mainly because of the Henry Fonda interpretation of the character. He was so easy to despise, yet he was the most interesting of the characters. Have to admit though, I love all the cavalry trilogy. -- Al