John Wayne and the wrath of Bob! (2 Viewers)

[UKReb]

Bob,

That scene with the cadets from military school, how did that battle go and was it a genuine engagement or a show of spirit as it were?

Rob

Rob

Both Fub and Al are absolutely correct. It was pure invention for the movie but it was inspired by an actual event: the successful attack of Virginia's Military Institute cadets at the Battle of New Market in May 1864. To this day the cadets are revered in VMI annals and those who were slain are still listed on a prominent roll of honour within their mess hall.

Although as Al has stated this event never happened during Grierson's raid, Ford wanted to include it in his movie. His location scouts found the Jefferson Military College just outside of Natchez-Mississippi and recruited 100 cadets who were studying there. In the movie the cadets are sent into the field at the request of a regular Confederate army artillery officer. The plan is to delay Marlowe's raiders until Bedford Forrest's Reb cavalry catch up with them. The scene as the cadets go forth marching to a fife and drum rendition of "The Bonnie Blue Flag" is certainly stirring as indeed is all of David Buttolph's musical score which included many actual ACW tunes that perfectly complemented the actions and emotions on the screen.



That Ford thought to include it within his film is proof that the claims about his having been a Civil War buff are indeed valid for the film is also peppered with small ACW references.
One example is the mother who pulls her cadet son out of the march. Note her name Mrs Buford. The actress who plays her is Anna Lee one of Ford's Stock Company- she played Mrs Collingwood in Fort Apache



Another example is when Hannah is taunting Marlowe at the dinner table at GreenBriars when she says "Well my, such brilliant minds. Poor little-ole-me just barely squeezed through Miss Longstreet's seminary for young ladies"

But the reference that really impressed me was during the very first scene that opens the film. The riverboat meeting with Grant and Sherman. When General Hurlbut shakes hands with Sherman-listen carefully next time you watch the film-he says "Hello Cump".
Sherman was baptised Tecumseh after the Shawnee chief, but the minister believing the name to be heathen arbitrarily added William. Sherman was always called Cump by his closest friends which included Grant and Hurlbut.

Now that Rob is only known amongst complete ACW anoraks like Jack Ford was and of course yours truly-pretty sad eh! ^&grin

Bob

 

[lancer]

Great post, Rob. Very informative. While I knew about Sherman's nick name, I am embarrassed to admit that I have never noticed it's use in the movie.:redface2: Anna Lee had a much more prominent role in Ford's How Green Was My Valley. As well as appearing in The Horse Soldiers and Fort Apache with John Wayne, she was also in Flying Tigers, Seven Sinners, and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance with him. -- Al

 

[The Military Workshop]

Bob,
Some great background information. You would make a great movie reviewer for a newspaper or magazine.
Brett

 

[UKReb]

Great post, Rob. Very informative. While I knew about Sherman's nick name, I am embarrassed to admit that I have never noticed it's use in the movie.:redface2: Anna Lee had a much more prominent role in Ford's How Green Was My Valley. As well as appearing in The Horse Soldiers and Fort Apache with John Wayne, she was also in Flying Tigers, Seven Sinners, and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance with him. -- Al

Thanks Al and did you know she was English and born very close to where I grew up in Ightham in Kent....... but I must swiftly add quite a few years before my time ^&grin

Bob,
Some great background information. You would make a great movie reviewer for a newspaper or magazine.
Brett

Thanks Brett, not sure if there is a JB HiFi store in Brisbane or if indeed its an Australian franchise but I do know there are a number of their stores in Sydney and Melbourne. If there is go in and pick up a copy of their Stack magazine (free to customers). Its one of a number of film magazines I freelance for each month. This month's issue contains a couple of articles written by yours truly under the moniker of Bob.J with one of the articles being the back-ground story to the movie Shane. I also put together for the same mag a film quiz with a $100 prize each month described I believe by the Aussies as "fiendishly difficult". Needless to say I thoroughly enjoy writing up reviews of old classic movies and the stories behind how they were made. As a matter of fact I am flying out to Melbourne/Sydney next month to discuss with the owner a new magazine he wants to add to his stable and hopefully at the same time sink a few beers with Howard as well ^&grin

Likewise I lecture on this stuff at the local Film & Arts College a couple of times a week (during term time). Must admit I was pleasantly surprised that the students (boys and gals between the ages of 19 & 25 years old) are already extremely well versed in the many films and works of Ford, Hathaway, Welles and Hawks etc which I find very rewarding as I thought that young cinemagoers today were only interested in CGI Super Iron Men and Thor. Hell! what did I know? ^&confuse

Thanks again Brett pleased you found the posts of some interest

Bob

 

[damian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24407455

Well Reb any comments on this piece. Sounds like the sort of quest you would be involved in.

 

[blaster]

Hi All,

I saw Red River starring John Wayne, Montgomery Clift, Walter Brennan and John Ireland, at least these were the actors I recognised. I read a little about this on Wikipedia etc. A great movie focusing on a cattle drive.

Being a longtime John Wayne fan, I was struck by the brutal and almost callous character (Dunson) he played. Two scenes stood out: firstly, he wanted to whip a cowhand for stealing sugar and secondly, he propositioned Montgomery's girlfriend to have his baby in return for half a share of his fortune, merely to spite him, was way-out-of-character acting for the Duke. Was this the only "bad character" that John Wayne played besides Genghis Khan?

I also noted that John Wayne and Walter Brennan were made to look very young early on in the movie and this contrasted greatly with their later appearances in the movie.

rgds Victor

 

[RPZ]

Red River is one of my favorites. In fairness to Wayne's character in this one, the man's compulsive sugar theft resulted in a stampede and the death of another man.

 

[jazzeum]

I saw Red River last night. He's a driven man in the movie and the death of the woman he loves never seems far from the surface and is a motivation for softening on his threat to kill Matt (Montgomery Clift). There's a weird dynamic going with Matt's love interest. Hawks also seemed to imply that Cherry (John Ireland) would come to blows but it never comes to that and he gets in the way of Wayne when he's out to get Matt. Tremendous cast. The make up artists also do a great job on making Wayne look older.

 

[Rob]

I saw Red River last night. He's a driven man in the movie and the death of the woman he loves never seems far from the surface and is a motivation for softening on his threat to kill Matt (Montgomery Clift). There's a weird dynamic going with Matt's love interest. Hawks also seemed to imply that Cherry (John Ireland) would come to blows but it never comes to that and he gets in the way of Wayne when he's out to get Matt. Tremendous cast. The make up artists also do a great job on making Wayne look older.

Must try and catch this one.

Yesterday I watched 'The Sons of Katie Elder ' for what must be the twentieth time since I was a kid, and you know what, I still love this movie! It may not be among his best work but it's just so enjoyable. I enjoy watching John Wayne be John Wayne and he does this very well in this movie. The cast is a good one including of course George Kennedy ( who I also enjoyed very much in the Naked Gun movies) as the bad guy's hired thug, who JW famously poleaxes with a pick axe handle to the face in a scene that still makes you go ' Ouch'! (and that caused quite a stir at the time I believe}. The musical score by Elmer Bernstein is also not only very good in itself but in fact so good it kind of represents all Westerns in a way, kind of 'Classic Western ' music.

This movie was one of those that my family would all sit around the tv after Christmas dinner each year and watch in the seventies. As a result it has always remained a fave of mine :smile2: Bob, if you read this would really like to see your appraisal of this one.

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

This probably doesn't count as a western but just saw Bad Day at Black Rock. What a movie and what a cast, what with Spencer Tracy, Robert Ryan , Anne Francis, Borgnine, Lee Marvin and John Ericson.

Tight dialogue and a great screenplay. Hard to not rave about this movie.

 

[Warrior]

I have a thing for 'The Cowboys', where Wayne hires boys to acompany him on a long cattle drive. It is darkly violent and John Wane gets killed! A couple bits really stood out - the black cook about to be executed by the bandits, who prays ''Forgive me Lord for the men I have killed... and the men I am about to." Shiver! I also still chuckle at the scene where he is disrobing and all the boys are craning for a 'look', to which he says "Yes that's black too". I think Bruce Dern was the lead villian and he was great too.

The Wayne film I have the most trouble with is 'Fort Apache' - well the one where Henry Fonda is an absolute martinet and ultimately leads his men on a suicide charge, where they are wioed out in an unlikely Indian charge. Wayne survives, yet appears to revere his former commander! What gave with that! Almost none of that film made any sense! Arhhhh!!!!!

Watched this one today, love this movie, so many great one liners in it. I thought the Duke was very good in it, loved how the kids got their revenge on the cattle thieves..............

 

[Warrior]

One of the very few totally civil war themed movies to come out of any of the Hollywood studios. Ford had long had a reputation as a Civil War buff but had never directed an ACW motion picture. The war had served as a backdrop, or even as a subtext, for his cavalry trilogy and had also figured in the back story of Ethan Edwards in The Searchers. Subsequently, when the Mirisch Production Company working out of United Artists offered this tale of Grierson's Raid into Mississippi in April 1863 Ford jumped at it.

The original cast was Clark Gable as Marlowe and Wayne as the surgeon Kendall (that would never have worked) with Elizabeth Taylor as Miss Hannah Hunter. But both Gable and Taylor proved unavailable. Wayne was moved to the Marlowe role and Jimmy Stewart was offered the Kendall role but turned it down as he didn't like the character's cynicism. Hence Holden getting the part.

Not all of Ford's stock company were on hand much to the director's bitter disappointment. No Ward Bond or Victor McLaglen, no Ben Johnson or Harry Carey Jr. Judson Pratt, who portrayed Sergeant Major Kirby-Marlowe's "topkick" on the mission- filled the part which had been reserved for McLaglen. But he was nowhere near the blustering, brawling character McLaglen had perfected in the trilogy movies. Nevertheless the standard jokes about drinking written for McLaglen were retained in the script.

The Horse Soldiers is a gutsy cavalry movie that could have been a classic for it contains scenes with the same visual splendour as Yellow Ribbon but its flawed. A problematical script was rendered irrelevant when Fred Kennedy, one of Ford's favourite stuntmen (he played one of the Yankee soldiers guarding Miss Hannah in the film) was tragically killed on location executing a basic horse fall. It was nobody's fault, but Ford was devastated, he simply wrapped the movie there and then and went home, leaving 20 pages of location shooting unshot.

That's why practically everyone who has viewed the movie felt the ending was too abrupt. Which is a fair comment as the final seven camera shots beyond the battle of the bridge were never filmed.

Bob

This is my favorite John Wayne movie, I must have seen it 50 times or more. "That holy Joe ain't no kid"........."Ding dong, ding dong"................"with the compliments of Miss Hannah Hunter"..........on and on it goes. The attack on Newton Station was a good one, the rebs didn't have a chance...........

 

[UKReb]

I saw Red River last night. He's a driven man in the movie and the death of the woman he loves never seems far from the surface and is a motivation for softening on his threat to kill Matt (Montgomery Clift). There's a weird dynamic going with Matt's love interest. Hawks also seemed to imply that Cherry (John Ireland) would come to blows but it never comes to that and he gets in the way of Wayne when he's out to get Matt. Tremendous cast. The make up artists also do a great job on making Wayne look older.

Brad

Another of my favourite Duke motion pictures. This was Howard Hawk's first western per se. He was best known for urbane movies with sly & gritty dialogue ie The Big Sleep. Subsequently, several critics have suggested Red River is a flawed movie that promises more than it delivers, and that in some respects is a remarkably actionless action movie. If you analyse the film content there is talk throughout the first half of the film about Missouri border gangs and savage Indians but we see no Missouri gangs and Dunson with Groot quickly and easily despatch the few Indians they confront. The film also promised a climactic gunfight between Garth and both Cherry Valance and Dunson, but delivers neither. The original Borden Chase novel is filled with action and adventure and delivers all the anticipated fights including Dunson's death.

But those critics missed completely Hawks intention with his first foray into the movie west-and that was to make an intelligent adult western. So he stripped out a lot of the action and focused on the psychological clash of opposites, the uncompromising, physically powerful Dunson and the flexible, seemingly soft and gentle Garth. Red River is a study of relationships between men-how they act-how they interact-how they work and how they get the job done. Everything else, from the spectacular stampede and the river crossing etc is purely incidental. Red River had less to do with it's panoramic canvas and everything to do with the human heart.

It's an excellent movie that I never tire of watching for Wayne's performance of Dunson is simply magnificent. His character who is obsessed as Ahab and as unbending as Captain Bligh- was an incredibly complex and difficult role to play but the actor pulled it off in spades. This movie elevated him into the top ten box-office stars where he would remain for the next 25 years.

Bob

 

[RPZ]

The last few posts highlight just one if the reasons I like Red River so much. Rather than exhibiting a few elements that many people expect to see in a western, the emphasis is the background story, character developement and complex human elements. A story about cowboys, rather than the usual and often predictable cowboy story.

 

[jazzeum]

Bob,

That is an amazing analysis but quite on point. This may seem sacrilege but I think I prefer Red River to The Searchers, although both quite amazing.

I have now set my DVR to several Wayne films that will be showing in late December, including Stagecoach, which I have never seen. That movie was eligible for the 1939 Oscars and when I looked it up I was flabbergasted by the quality of the movies that year: Gone with the Wind, Dark Victory, Goodbye Mr Chips, Ninotchka, Of Mice and Men and Wuthering Heights. That is just incredible.

Brad

 

[jazzeum]

Saw Three Godfathers today. It's sort of a variation on The Three Wise Men help deliver the baby Jesus in a conestoga wagon. It's pretty riveting actually but the ending is a bit hokey. I'm not sure Ford knew what to do with it, possibly. However, still a very good film, well worth seeing.

 

[jazzeum]

Saw Rio Bravo a couple of days ago. Another wonderful Hawks movie: a determined group against an overwhelming number of criminals, with nary a townsperson helping them. In fact, none of the townspeople says a word throughout the movie. They are the great majority who don't want to get involved. Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson put in good performances and their duets add to the atmosphere. Great dynamic between Wayne and Angie Dickinson, especially her line about kissing is more fun when two people do it.

The he only downer was that it was on AMC, which has tons of commercials.

 

[lancer]

Saw Rio Bravo a couple of days ago. Another wonderful Hawks movie: a determined group against an overwhelming number of criminals, with nary a townsperson helping them. In fact, none of the townspeople says a word throughout the movie. They are the great majority who don't want to get involved. Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson put in good performances and their duets add to the atmosphere. Great dynamic between Wayne and Angie Dickinson, especially her line about kissing is more fun when two people do it.

The he only downer was that it was on AMC, which has tons of commercials.

It's a good one and one of my favorite Wayne pictures (and there are a lot of them). Walter Brennan turns in his usual great performance as the grumpy sidekick. -- Al

 

[Jack]

Saw Rio Bravo a couple of days ago. Another wonderful Hawks movie: a determined group against an overwhelming number of criminals, with nary a townsperson helping them. In fact, none of the townspeople says a word throughout the movie. They are the great majority who don't want to get involved. Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson put in good performances and their duets add to the atmosphere. Great dynamic between Wayne and Angie Dickinson, especially her line about kissing is more fun when two people do it.

The he only downer was that it was on AMC, which has tons of commercials.

Dean Martin was excellent but I suspect playing a drunk might not have been all that challenging. {sm4}

 

[jazzeum]

That's largely a myth or a public affectation. Anyone who was that seriously inebriated could only have the success he had in his life. Back in the 60s he had a popular variety show on television where he would joke about his drinking and we would all laugh. A show like that would not fly today. I guess we are more enlightened :rolleyes2: