John Wayne and the wrath of Bob! (1 Viewer)

[larso]

From memory the Apaches once did gather 600 or so warriors and did try to massacre a coloum. The attack was well planned in that it took place in a narrow pass but unfortunately for the Apaches, the column had a cannon and it caused havoc. The details are hazy but Indian casualties were in the hundreds - so they never tried that again. The Apache leader was Magnus something or other I think? Apache's generally had pretty cool names - Cochise, Geronimo, Victorio.

 

[lancer]

From memory the Apaches once did gather 600 or so warriors and did try to massacre a coloum. The attack was well planned in that it took place in a narrow pass but unfortunately for the Apaches, the column had a cannon and it caused havoc. The details are hazy but Indian casualties were in the hundreds - so they never tried that again. The Apache leader was Magnus something or other I think? Apache's generally had pretty cool names - Cochise, Geronimo, Victorio.

Mangus Colorados is the leader you are thinking of. He was murdered while under a flag of truce in 1863. In addition to the others you named, there was Juh and Delshay. -- Al

 

[UKReb]

My take on this movie was that this was Ford's version of Custer's last stand. It did not have the tenderness nor realism of his other 2 Cavalry movies..She Wore a Yellow Ribbon and Rio Grande.. The fact that the Apaches could muster enough braves to wipe out a regiment was always laughable to me..and lets not forget that once free of the canyon, Thursday heads back into the trap to die with his troops. Not my favorite Wayne vehicle..Michael

The parallels with the character Col Thursday and Custer are palpable and they become unmistakable at the climax of the film as Thursday leads his men on a doomed charge into an Apache ambush. But Ford and his scriptwriter deliberately chose to blur the precise comparisons with Custer's demise for a very good reason.

In 1935 Ford unsuccessfully tried to find financial backers for a Custer film called Glory Hunter (the title perfectly indicates the version of Custer Ford wished to portray on screen) But no Hollywood studio in 1935 wanted to finance a motion picture that debunked the legendary myth of Custer but had no compunction to back the likes of Raoul Walsh's brazen and historically distorted version They Died With Their Boots On with the dashing Flynn in the lead role as the heroic buckskin clad general. Ford harboured no illusions about Custer or the mythology surrounding his massacre but instinctively knew that the studio money-men or indeed the American public were not ready for a glory hunting version of every young lads frontier hero. This was still extant a dozen years later, subsequently, Thursday became a model for Custer and the Wayne character is a cautious Major Benteen, assigned responsibility for the supply train. Ford never had any concerns about bending history for his movies and changed the location from Montana to Arizona primarily so that he could employ his friends the Navajos in his beloved Monument Valley.

As an aside any of you guys noticed that Ford's next cavalry movie She Wore A Yellow Ribbon is a complete reverse take on Fort Apache which continues the character of York through Nathan Brittles but mirrors a transition from conflict to consensus. Fort Apache ends in a massacre; Yellow Ribbon begins with "Custer is Dead" but ends with bloodshed avoided. Thursday is motivated by self advancement, Captain Brittles by duty. Thursday's dream is one of conquest, Brittles is of co-existence. Thursday is a lecturer, Brittles is a teacher. Thursday makes derogatory remarks about Robert E Lee and Jeb Stuart, whereas Brittles participates respectfully in the Confederate burial of a trooper who had been a Southern general-and so on and so on. It is these subtle nuances in most of Ford's work that has always fascinated me.

Ford's Cavalry Trilogy is surely the most patriotic depiction of "the regiment" on film, yet for all their sentimentality they still provide moments of insight into what it must have actually been like riding the trails out west as a 50 cent a day dog faced soldier in dirty shirt blue.

Bob

 

[larso]

It was the Battle of Apache Pass. There were two howitzers and 500 Apaches (another says 700). Casualty numbers vary depending on the source. Wiki has it at 10 dead Indians (two dead soldiers), though there is an account that nominates 65 dead.

 

[lancer]

Watching Rio Grande as I write this. I really like these westerns in B/W. Anyway, I am once again struck by the talent of Ken Curtis. Best known as Festus from Gunsmoke, he had quite a film career in the Ford movies. He was also an incredible singing talent, although only a bit of that comes through in his films. -- Al

 

[TomB]

Watching Rio Grande as I write this. I really like these westerns in B/W. Anyway, I am once again struck by the talent of Ken Curtis. Best known as Festus from Gunsmoke, he had quite a film career in the Ford movies. He was also an incredible singing talent, although only a bit of that comes through in his films. -- Al

Ken Curtis...another under rated actor....I remember him as Festus in Gunsmoke and from memory he was the second lead in a series..Rip Cord,,,,skydiving series.....the lead in the show was an up and coming actor..darned if I can remember his name....he died young from a heart attack...Jeffery Hunter did the same.....exciting series to watch for a young lad......another U Beaut series was Sea Hunt with Loyd Bridges....scuba diving.....I would love to see some of these old series repeated on cable...F Troop is another...BUT ..to my great happiness I have the full series on DVD....Regards TomB

 

[Rob]

Would very much like to ask Bob his opinion of ' The Horse Soldiers ' . Now I very much like this Western. Both the Duke and William Holden put in good performances I reckon and it's an exciting romp (the only bad moment is the rather creepy spanking of the Military Cadet- frankly a little weird but there you go!-although it was a real battle I understand) but overall this is a good one in my book and I particularly like the aggro between Wayne and Holden.

So Bob, over to you my friend, where does it rank in your Wayne list of top movies?

Rob

 

[lancer]

Ken Curtis...another under rated actor....I remember him as Festus in Gunsmoke and from memory he was the second lead in a series..Rip Cord,,,,skydiving series.....the lead in the show was an up and coming actor..darned if I can remember his name....he died young from a heart attack...Jeffery Hunter did the same.....exciting series to watch for a young lad......another U Beaut series was Sea Hunt with Loyd Bridges....scuba diving.....I would love to see some of these old series repeated on cable...F Troop is another...BUT ..to my great happiness I have the full series on DVD....Regards TomB

Some good shows, but you are aging yourself. Same here. Sea Hunt and F Troop are in regular rotation on my cable channels. Ripcord hasn't shown up yet. Ken Curtis shared billing with Larry Pennell in Ripcord. Pennell is still alive and well, age 85, and has worked as recently as 2006. He played major League Baseball from 1948-53 and kind of reprised that with a part in Tom Selleck's 1992 movie Mr. Baseball. Ken Curtis is one of my favorite character actors. -- Al

 

[TomB]

Some good shows, but you are aging yourself. Same here. Sea Hunt and F Troop are in regular rotation on my cable channels. Ripcord hasn't shown up yet. Ken Curtis shared billing with Larry Pennell in Ripcord. Pennell is still alive and well, age 85, and has worked as recently as 2006. He played major League Baseball from 1948-53 and kind of reprised that with a part in Tom Selleck's 1992 movie Mr. Baseball. Ken Curtis is one of my favorite character actors. -- Al

Had to go to U Tube and vid of Ripcord to get a pic of Larry Pennell....Wikipedia has an article but no picture....not the guy I thought...got it wrong...ah well...cant win em all....I guess if I was to see ...Sea Hunt...again today I would take the micky outa it...but..I reckoned it was a good show when I saw it...good enough to do a bit of scuba diving myself....never had the fun Loyd did though...regards TomB

 

[snowyowl]

A lot of the under water sequences in Sea Hunt were filmed at Silver Springs, Florida. It's an amazing place with water so clear that you can see down 70' to where the springs are feeding in to the river. It's also a great place to see bird life, monkeys and gators. A lot of the early Tarzan movies plus, I think, The Creature from the Black Lagoon were filmed there. We visit there one way or another most winters.

 

[UKReb]

Would very much like to ask Bob his opinion of ' The Horse Soldiers ' . Now I very much like this Western. Both the Duke and William Holden put in good performances I reckon and it's an exciting romp (the only bad moment is the rather creepy spanking of the Military Cadet- frankly a little weird but there you go!-although it was a real battle I understand) but overall this is a good one in my book and I particularly like the aggro between Wayne and Holden.

So Bob, over to you my friend, where does it rank in your Wayne list of top movies?

Rob

One of the very few totally civil war themed movies to come out of any of the Hollywood studios. Ford had long had a reputation as a Civil War buff but had never directed an ACW motion picture. The war had served as a backdrop, or even as a subtext, for his cavalry trilogy and had also figured in the back story of Ethan Edwards in The Searchers. Subsequently, when the Mirisch Production Company working out of United Artists offered this tale of Grierson's Raid into Mississippi in April 1863 Ford jumped at it.

The original cast was Clark Gable as Marlowe and Wayne as the surgeon Kendall (that would never have worked) with Elizabeth Taylor as Miss Hannah Hunter. But both Gable and Taylor proved unavailable. Wayne was moved to the Marlowe role and Jimmy Stewart was offered the Kendall role but turned it down as he didn't like the character's cynicism. Hence Holden getting the part.



Not all of Ford's stock company were on hand much to the director's bitter disappointment. No Ward Bond or Victor McLaglen, no Ben Johnson or Harry Carey Jr. Judson Pratt, who portrayed Sergeant Major Kirby-Marlowe's "topkick" on the mission- filled the part which had been reserved for McLaglen. But he was nowhere near the blustering, brawling character McLaglen had perfected in the trilogy movies. Nevertheless the standard jokes about drinking written for McLaglen were retained in the script.

The Horse Soldiers is a gutsy cavalry movie that could have been a classic for it contains scenes with the same visual splendour as Yellow Ribbon but its flawed. A problematical script was rendered irrelevant when Fred Kennedy, one of Ford's favourite stuntmen (he played one of the Yankee soldiers guarding Miss Hannah in the film) was tragically killed on location executing a basic horse fall. It was nobody's fault, but Ford was devastated, he simply wrapped the movie there and then and went home, leaving 20 pages of location shooting unshot.

That's why practically everyone who has viewed the movie felt the ending was too abrupt. Which is a fair comment as the final seven camera shots beyond the battle of the bridge were never filmed.

Bob

 

[Jack]

One of the very few totally civil war themed movies to come out of any of the Hollywood studios. Ford had long had a reputation as a Civil War buff but had never directed an ACW motion picture. The war had served as a backdrop, or even as a subtext, for his cavalry trilogy and had also figured in the back story of Ethan Edwards in The Searchers. Subsequently, when the Mirisch Production Company working out of United Artists offered this tale of Grierson's Raid into Mississippi in April 1863 Ford jumped at it.

The original cast was Clark Gable as Marlowe and Wayne as the surgeon Kendall (that would never have worked) with Elizabeth Taylor as Miss Hannah Hunter. But both Gable and Taylor proved unavailable. Wayne was moved to the Marlowe role and Jimmy Stewart was offered the Kendall role but turned it down as he didn't like the character's cynicism. Hence Holden getting the part.



Not all of Ford's stock company were on hand much to the director's bitter disappointment. No Ward Bond or Victor McLaglen, no Ben Johnson or Harry Carey Jr. Judson Pratt, who portrayed Sergeant Major Kirby-Marlowe's "topkick" on the mission- filled the part which had been reserved for McLaglen. But he was nowhere near the blustering, brawling character McLaglen had perfected in the trilogy movies. Nevertheless the standard jokes about drinking written for McLaglen were retained in the script.

The Horse Soldiers is a gutsy cavalry movie that could have been a classic for it contains scenes with the same visual splendour as Yellow Ribbon but its flawed. A problematical script was rendered irrelevant when Fred Kennedy, one of Ford's favourite stuntmen (he played one of the Yankee soldiers guarding Miss Hannah in the film) was tragically killed on location executing a basic horse fall. It was nobody's fault, but Ford was devastated, he simply wrapped the movie there and then and went home, leaving 20 pages of location shooting unshot.

That's why practically everyone who has viewed the movie felt the ending was too abrupt. Which is a fair comment as the final seven camera shots beyond the battle of the bridge were never filmed.

Bob

Bob

Do you see any parallels between Holden's performance in this movie with the one he delivered in "Bridge over the River Kwai'? I found Holden a touch self righteous in both despite my affection for both movies. He offered a far more nuanced take on the reluctant warrior in 'The Bridges at Tokio Ri'.

Jack

 

[Terp152]

Bob

Do you see any parallels between Holden's performance in this movie with the one he delivered in "Bridge over the River Kwai'? I found Holden a touch self righteous in both despite my affection for both movies. He offered a far more nuanced take on the reluctant warrior in 'The Bridges at Tokio Ri'.

Jack

And in Stalag 17. Brilliant performances in each film.

Chris

 

[lancer]

And in Stalag 17. Brilliant performances in each film.

Chris

Let's not forget The Wild Bunch. Holden made that movie as great as it is. -- Al

 

[UKReb]

Bob

Do you see any parallels between Holden's performance in this movie with the one he delivered in "Bridge over the River Kwai'? I found Holden a touch self righteous in both despite my affection for both movies. He offered a far more nuanced take on the reluctant warrior in 'The Bridges at Tokio Ri'.

Jack

Jack

I think Holden's film persona lies in his background. His family were extremely wealthy and upper class and he was more than uncomfortable with the career he chose and was no doubt a somewhat reluctant movie star. He once gave an interview (which in itself was a rarity) where he stated that his photogenic looks early in his career landed him dozen of roles that he dubbed Smiling Jim, a character who gets himself into a tight spot and smiles his way out of it, he told the interviewer "Good ole Smiling Jim, I hated his guts".

Billy Wilder spotted the cynicism and self loathing in Holden and put it to good service in Sunset Boulevard; Stalag 17 and Fedora. Holden himself liked the persona of these characters and played it time and time again during his career Picnic and Alvarez Kelly are another two good examples. However, he still remained extremely popular with moviegoers right up to his death.

Agree with Al Holden's Pike Bishop character in The Wild Bunch is a real tour de force and yet he was only offered the part after Marvin, Lancaster, Peck, Heston and a whole host of other actors turned it down.

Bob

 

[Nooooo9]

Holden was brilliant in Sunset Boulevard. I also liked him in Born Yesterday with Judy Holiday and Broderick Crawford.

 

[Rob]

Bob,

That scene with the cadets from military school, how did that battle go and was it a genuine engagement or a show of spirit as it were?

Rob

 

[Fubar]

I always thought they had tweaked history , A real engagement the battle Of New Market where the cadets of the Virginia Military Institute were called upon and saw bloody fighting.Oh, they carried the day too.

Fub

 

[Fubar]

vmi

 

[lancer]

From what I have read, no such engagement involving a military school occurred during Grierson's Raid. The incident in The Horse Soldiers was Ford's nod towards the VMI Cadets at New Market. -- Al