John Wayne and the wrath of Bob! (1 Viewer)

Back on course. Last night I saw Stagecoach and the Sons of Katie Elder.

The he former is obviously a classic, with all the different stories of the characters coming together in that fateful journey. The chase scene across Monument Valley is riveting and no doubt a classic. And how young was Wayne! What a screen presence. I read that Orson Welles watched the movie 40 times before he made Citizen Kane, trying to unlock Ford's secrets.

Katie Elder was enjoyable but not memorable.
 
That's largely a myth or a public affectation. Anyone who was that seriously inebriated could only have the success he had in his life. Back in the 60s he had a popular variety show on television where he would joke about his drinking and we would all laugh. A show like that would not fly today. I guess we are more enlightened :rolleyes2:
According to what I have read, all that on-air inebriation was a pure act. His 'drinks' were ice tea. It was a carefully fostered image to mesh with his assumed lifestyle. Martin was a natural talent and apparently hated to rehearse so there was always a little bit of improvisation and surprise to his TV show. I enjoyed the show quite a bit and always rated Martin as the best of the Rat Pack crowd. -- Al
 
According to what I have read, all that on-air inebriation was a pure act. His 'drinks' were ice tea. It was a carefully fostered image to mesh with his assumed lifestyle. Martin was a natural talent and apparently hated to rehearse so there was always a little bit of improvisation and surprise to his TV show. I enjoyed the show quite a bit and always rated Martin as the best of the Rat Pack crowd. -- Al
Do not know how the theme got away from JW to Deano but I like Deano's cowboy movies...could not stand him in the Jerry Lewis movies as he did not seem...to me...to be the real Deano in those films.....When Deano was Deano he run rings around Sinarta .....did not like the Pushy Frank...loved the casual Dean......have a clip from Utube with Deano singing with the Andrew Sisters (My my favorites along with Joe Stafford and Connie Francis)...love that clip...I am darn sure he did not rehearse that clip..it was so natural...Deano at his best...... cheers TomB
 
Do not know how the theme got away from JW to Deano but I like Deano's cowboy movies...could not stand him in the Jerry Lewis movies as he did not seem...to me...to be the real Deano in those films.....When Deano was Deano he run rings around Sinarta .....did not like the Pushy Frank...loved the casual Dean......have a clip from Utube with Deano singing with the Andrew Sisters (My my favorites along with Joe Stafford and Connie Francis)...love that clip...I am darn sure he did not rehearse that clip..it was so natural...Deano at his best...... cheers TomB
Dean was the man. ^&cool The thread got a little side-tracked because of the discussion around Rio Bravo that starred Wayne and had Martin in a main supporting role. Still within Wayne western movie guidelines.:wink2:^&grin -- Al
 
Saw Rio Bravo a couple of days ago. Another wonderful Hawks movie: a determined group against an overwhelming number of criminals, with nary a townsperson helping them. In fact, none of the townspeople says a word throughout the movie. They are the great majority who don't want to get involved. Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson put in good performances and their duets add to the atmosphere. Great dynamic between Wayne and Angie Dickinson, especially her line about kissing is more fun when two people do it.

The he only downer was that it was on AMC, which has tons of commercials.

Saw Three Godfathers today. It's sort of a variation on The Three Wise Men help deliver the baby Jesus in a conestoga wagon. It's pretty riveting actually but the ending is a bit hokey. I'm not sure Ford knew what to do with it, possibly. However, still a very good film, well worth seeing.

Hell's Bells Brad you and Damian are fast becoming keen exponents of Wayne's movie collaborations with both Ford and Hawks ^&grin

The story 3 Godfathers had already received various silent film outings and Ford had made a version he called Marked Men in about 1916. Much like his silent version this remake of his contains long stretches without any dialogue which possibly would have detracted from the images he wanted to depict. The story is remarkably simple and- unusual for Ford- hardly any character development. The three protagonists are not really badmen and there is never any doubt that they will do the honourable thing but Ford infused the film with a little too much religious allegory and symbolism. Bibles fall open to meaningful passages, the 3 Godfathers follow the stars to New Jerusalem and the birth of a child leads to redemption of Wayne's character. In fact I always thought the movie was less about godfathering and more about stepmothering.

But to dismiss the film on the grounds that it wears its Christian faith on its sleeve would be grossly unfair for it is still a fine movie and Winston Hoch's camera work is certainly visually stunning. Who knows perhaps Ford was demonstrating the western genre's mythic adaptability away from the historical.

Rio Bravo was Hawks' and Wayne's rebuke to both High Noon and 3:10 to Yuma. These two liberal "go it alone" westerns were detested by both the actor and the director who classed them as un-American. Hawks wanted the same cast as he had used for Red River, he got Wayne and Brennan but Monty Clift downright refused to work with either actor again (more to do with their right wing politics than anything else) and subsequently turned down the role of Dude which was then offered to Dino Martin. There are many nods in this movie to the previous collaboration- note Wayne's character John T Chance's belt buckle...... its the Red River D brand. Dino and Nelson's duet of My Rifle, My Pony and Me is actually "Settle Down" the same song from Red River only with different lyrics.

Hawks' movie heroes are nearly always marked not as isolates but as individual members of a group and the group is sustained by the mutual benefit it offers to all its members. He put this to good use in this movie as an antithesis to both High Noon and 3:10 to Yuma where the lawmen in both films rush around trying to raise help to combat the bad guys but receive none. But in Rio Bravo Wayne's character goes through the film systematically rejecting the help of others yet every crisis he faces, were it not for the intervention of others in the group, Wayne's character would have been defeated.

Bob
 
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Bob,

Thank you again for your insightful analysis. It may have seemed as I was dismissive of Three Godfathers but I actually enjoyed the movie and their attempt to get to New Jerusalem.

I haven't seen High Noon in god knows how many years but did see 3:10 to Yuma a couple of months ago. Why did Wayne and Ford see these movies as un-American and/or liberal. I would have thought that the individual going it alone would have been quite the opposite.

While watching Rio Bravo, I thought of you when the Mexican band was playing Deguello ^&cool

I think you have turned me and Damian into Wayne fans. Having seen few of his movies before, I'm enjoying seeing them for the first time. In fact, my wife keeps asking me why I'm on a Western kick.

Is there a collection or collections you recommend of Wayne, Wayne and Ford or Wayne and Hawks. I vaguely heard that Criterion has some sort of a collection although I haven't looked into it yet.

Brad
 
Watched El Dorado the other night. Although somewhat entertaining this was basically a copy of Rio Bravo but not as good.

Perhaps Bob can explain why Hawks would do this, unless the purposes were commercial.
 
I just watched The Fastest Gun in the West with Glenn Ford and Broderick Crawford. This is an excellent movie, with Ford haunted by his ability as a shooter and Crawford having a psychological need to prove that he's the meanest SOB around. Ultimately, they have to meet. Jeanne Crain is excellent as Ford's wife, pleading with him to give up his gun.

The movie is slightly marred by a five minute dancing scene by Russ Tamblyn that is a complete non-sequitur. Perhaps the producers thought the subject matter was so serious that it required this absurd scene.
 
Bob,

Thank you again for your insightful analysis. It may have seemed as I was dismissive of Three Godfathers but I actually enjoyed the movie and their attempt to get to New Jerusalem.

I haven't seen High Noon in god knows how many years but did see 3:10 to Yuma a couple of months ago. Why did Wayne and Ford see these movies as un-American and/or liberal. I would have thought that the individual going it alone would have been quite the opposite.

Brad

Both movies were overtly political and a thinly disguised attack on McCarthyism & HUAC. High Noon was written by Carl Foreman, a leftist and a harsh critic of McCarthy so much so he was on the verge of being blacklisted. The town of Hadleyville with its citizens cowering under the threat of Frank Miller and his gang of killers was taken as reference to McCarthy's "reign of terror" in Hollywood where no-one helped the accused Hollywood Ten. Both Wayne and Hawks were staunch supporters of McCarthy's witch hunt to drive out this "supposed threat of communism" that they purported had infested the movie capital during the late 40s & 50s.

What Wayne and Hawks did not like in the movie and considered un-American was the disgusted way Cooper takes off his badge at the end of the film and drops it in the dust. Wayne in fact frequently misquoted that scene by stating that Cooper ground the star into the dirt with his heel. He didn't. Bottom line Brad was that both Duke and his director loathed Carl Foreman as indeed did a lot of the Hollywood elite at the time. Consequently, that's why Foreman set up home here in the UK and carried on producing movies.

Watched El Dorado the other night. Although somewhat entertaining this was basically a copy of Rio Bravo but not as good.

Perhaps Bob can explain why Hawks would do this, unless the purposes were commercial.

Hawks and Wayne repeated Rio Bravo not once but three times Rio Lobo, El Dorado and the non western Hatari. Why did Hawks make these sad late movies? Because as you guessed that was where the money was. No doubt Hawks shared John Ford's realisation- that as their director status was waning- John Wayne was financially rewarding company to keep.

I just watched The Fastest Gun in the West with Glenn Ford and Broderick Crawford. This is an excellent movie, with Ford haunted by his ability as a shooter and Crawford having a psychological need to prove that he's the meanest SOB around. Ultimately, they have to meet. Jeanne Crain is excellent as Ford's wife, pleading with him to give up his gun.

The movie is slightly marred by a five minute dancing scene by Russ Tamblyn that is a complete non-sequitur. Perhaps the producers thought the subject matter was so serious that it required this absurd scene.

The title of this movie here in the UK is The Fastest Gun Alive not in the West. A riveting storyline-with a strong nod to High Noon- while turning many of those conventions upside down. A great western with two stellar actors that examines the nature of courage and violence where both the hero and villain were psychologically damaged driven characters.

The Russ Tamblyn dance routine in the movie has an interesting back story. When Glenn Ford saw the dance sequence he flipped stating that it didn't fit into the western theme and got it cut out. But at the first sneak preview they forgot to cut out the line in the credits "Russ Tamblyn's dance choreographed by Alex Romero". The preview audience almost to a man bitterly complained "where was Russ's dance number?" So MGM put it back in....... much to Ford's chagrin.

Brad I could write you a thesis on Glenn Ford and his many westerns as I consider him today to be the most underrated actor in Hollywood history but then again this thread is all about the Duke and my apparent wrath ^&grin

Watch you don't overdose on western movies Brad as it can turn out to become an addiction that can quickly develop into a malady.^&grin

Bob
 
Both movies were overtly political and a thinly disguised attack on McCarthyism & HUAC. High Noon was written by Carl Foreman, a leftist and a harsh critic of McCarthy so much so he was on the verge of being blacklisted. The town of Hadleyville with its citizens cowering under the threat of Frank Miller and his gang of killers was taken as reference to McCarthy's "reign of terror" in Hollywood where no-one helped the accused Hollywood Ten. Both Wayne and Hawks were staunch supporters of McCarthy's witch hunt to drive out this "supposed threat of communism" that they purported had infested the movie capital during the late 40s & 50s.

What Wayne and Hawks did not like in the movie and considered un-American was the disgusted way Cooper takes off his badge at the end of the film and drops it in the dust. Wayne in fact frequently misquoted that scene by stating that Cooper ground the star into the dirt with his heel. He didn't. Bottom line Brad was that both Duke and his director loathed Carl Foreman as indeed did a lot of the Hollywood elite at the time. Consequently, that's why Foreman set up home here in the UK and carried on producing movies.



Hawks and Wayne repeated Rio Bravo not once but three times Rio Lobo, El Dorado and the non western Hatari. Why did Hawks make these sad late movies? Because as you guessed that was where the money was. No doubt Hawks shared John Ford's realisation- that as their director status was waning- John Wayne was financially rewarding company to keep.



The title of this movie here in the UK is The Fastest Gun Alive not in the West. A riveting storyline-with a strong nod to High Noon- while turning many of those conventions upside down. A great western with two stellar actors that examines the nature of courage and violence where both the hero and villain were psychologically damaged driven characters.

The Russ Tamblyn dance routine in the movie has an interesting back story. When Glenn Ford saw the dance sequence he flipped stating that it didn't fit into the western theme and got it cut out. But at the first sneak preview they forgot to cut out the line in the credits "Russ Tamblyn's dance choreographed by Alex Romero". The preview audience almost to a man bitterly complained "where was Russ's dance number?" So MGM put it back in....... much to Ford's chagrin.

Brad I could write you a thesis on Glenn Ford and his many westerns as I consider him today to be the most underrated actor in Hollywood history but then again this thread is all about the Duke and my apparent wrath ^&grin

Watch you don't overdose on western movies Brad as it can turn out to become an addiction that can quickly develop into a malady.^&grin

Bob
Agree on Glen Ford...I always enjoyed his westerns and general movies, my only complaint is I felt a lot of his movies were too drawn out.....Just saw a GF movie I had not seen before...Glen Ford and Arther Kennedy.(another good supporting actor)...a western with a long drawn out story but a story that kept your interest....the ending was not surprisung but done in an unexpected manner....The Evil Gun......this movie would be the only GF movie I would watch again dispite its length...cheers TomB
 
Both movies were overtly political and a thinly disguised attack on McCarthyism & HUAC. High Noon was written by Carl Foreman, a leftist and a harsh critic of McCarthy so much so he was on the verge of being blacklisted. The town of Hadleyville with its citizens cowering under the threat of Frank Miller and his gang of killers was taken as reference to McCarthy's "reign of terror" in Hollywood where no-one helped the accused Hollywood Ten. Both Wayne and Hawks were staunch supporters of McCarthy's witch hunt to drive out this "supposed threat of communism" that they purported had infested the movie capital during the late 40s & 50s.

What Wayne and Hawks did not like in the movie and considered un-American was the disgusted way Cooper takes off his badge at the end of the film and drops it in the dust. Wayne in fact frequently misquoted that scene by stating that Cooper ground the star into the dirt with his heel. He didn't. Bottom line Brad was that both Duke and his director loathed Carl Foreman as indeed did a lot of the Hollywood elite at the time. Consequently, that's why Foreman set up home here in the UK and carried on producing movies.

Hawks and Wayne repeated Rio Bravo not once but three times Rio Lobo, El Dorado and the non western Hatari. Why did Hawks make these sad late movies? Because as you guessed that was where the money was. No doubt Hawks shared John Ford's realisation- that as their director status was waning- John Wayne was financially rewarding company to keep.

The title of this movie here in the UK is The Fastest Gun Alive not in the West. A riveting storyline-with a strong nod to High Noon- while turning many of those conventions upside down. A great western with two stellar actors that examines the nature of courage and violence where both the hero and villain were psychologically damaged driven characters.

The Russ Tamblyn dance routine in the movie has an interesting back story. When Glenn Ford saw the dance sequence he flipped stating that it didn't fit into the western theme and got it cut out. But at the first sneak preview they forgot to cut out the line in the credits "Russ Tamblyn's dance choreographed by Alex Romero". The preview audience almost to a man bitterly complained "where was Russ's dance number?" So MGM put it back in....... much to Ford's chagrin.

Brad I could write you a thesis on Glenn Ford and his many westerns as I consider him today to be the most underrated actor in Hollywood history but then again this thread is all about the Duke and my apparent wrath ^&grin

Watch you don't overdose on western movies Brad as it can turn out to become an addiction that can quickly develop into a malady.^&grin

Bob


Bob,

Thanks for the explanation and correction; it is the Fastest Gun Alive. I got that wrong. The Tamblyn scene detracts some but not terribly from the movie. However, I can understand why Ford wasn't happy.

I need to go back and find High Noon and then go back and re-read your comments. I presume I can get it off Netflix.

Yes, the Westerns could be catching ^&grin

Brad
 
As an aside any of you guys noticed that Ford's next cavalry movie She Wore A Yellow Ribbon is a complete reverse take on Fort Apache which continues the character of York through Nathan Brittles but mirrors a transition from conflict to consensus. Fort Apache ends in a massacre; Yellow Ribbon begins with "Custer is Dead" but ends with bloodshed avoided. Thursday is motivated by self advancement, Captain Brittles by duty. Thursday's dream is one of conquest, Brittles is of co-existence. Thursday is a lecturer, Brittles is a teacher. Thursday makes derogatory remarks about Robert E Lee and Jeb Stuart, whereas Brittles participates respectfully in the Confederate burial of a trooper who had been a Southern general-and so on and so on. It is these subtle nuances in most of Ford's work that has always fascinated me.

Bob

I finally saw Yellow Ribbon last night but am unsure how I feel about it. It has the themes mentioned by Bob but not themes I would ordinarily expect from Wayne because as noted the theme is on bloodshed avoided and peacemaking. I had the feeling that Ford is saying we change as we get older: we are not the rabble rousers we use to be but wish to go quietly into the night. Although the role of teacher makes sense in this context, the dueling Romeos was a little forced I thought. I also found the McLaglen role amusing but unnecessary and otherwise detracted from the film. Spending 10 minutes on that bar scene was completely unnecessary, in my opinion.
 
I finally saw Yellow Ribbon last night but am unsure how I feel about it. It has the themes mentioned by Bob but not themes I would ordinarily expect from Wayne because as noted the theme is on bloodshed avoided and peacemaking. I had the feeling that Ford is saying we change as we get older: we are not the rabble rousers we use to be but wish to go quietly into the night. Although the role of teacher makes sense in this context, the dueling Romeos was a little forced I thought. I also found the McLaglen role amusing but unnecessary and otherwise detracted from the film. Spending 10 minutes on that bar scene was completely unnecessary, in my opinion.
I've always liked the Ford cavalry trilogy and have always liked Yellow Ribbon as part of the trilogy but it is not my favorite of the three films. I prefer Fort Apache and then Rio Grande, with Yellow Ribbon bringing up the rear. Don't really know why but I'm sure it's rooted in my childhood viewing preferences, plus I really liked Henry Fonda as Owen Thursday. -- Al
 
I thought I would dust off this thread because I just saw The Gunfighter with Gregory Peck, a 1950 movie. This is an excellent movie about a tired old gunfighter, Jimmy Ringo, whose reputation exceeds his exploits, who wants to see his family before he has to move on again.

Ringo finds himself constantly challenged to gun duels by young punks because of his reputation for being the best. According to TCM, The Gunfighter had its genesis in a dinner between screenwriter William Bowers and the retired heavyweight boxing champion Jack Dempsey. Dempsey told Bowers that his biggest daily problem was that seemingly everyone he met wanted to start a fight with him. Bowers was intrigued, and thought about applying that concept to a western gunfighter. "By the time I sat down to write [it]," he said, "I knew every line... It took me two weeks just to put it down, but I had thought it out completely."

Great movie. If you have the TCM app for the iPad or similar tablet, it's probably on there for a few more days.
 
I thought I would dust off this thread because I just saw The Gunfighter with Gregory Peck, a 1950 movie. This is an excellent movie about a tired old gunfighter, Jimmy Ringo, whose reputation exceeds his exploits, who wants to see his family before he has to move on again.

Ringo finds himself constantly challenged to gun duels by young punks because of his reputation for being the best. According to TCM, The Gunfighter had its genesis in a dinner between screenwriter William Bowers and the retired heavyweight boxing champion Jack Dempsey. Dempsey told Bowers that his biggest daily problem was that seemingly everyone he met wanted to start a fight with him. Bowers was intrigued, and thought about applying that concept to a western gunfighter. "By the time I sat down to write [it]," he said, "I knew every line... It took me two weeks just to put it down, but I had thought it out completely."

Great movie. If you have the TCM app for the iPad or similar tablet, it's probably on there for a few more days.
Brad, this show has been a favorite of mine for a long time. Just saw it the other day, again. Malden is great as the bartender, as is Mitchell as the sheriff. I really like the town punk played by a young Skip Homeier. Peck did some outstanding work in westerns, though his reputation lays elsewhere. He did such westerns as Duel in the Sun, The Big Country, The Bravados, and The Stalking Moon, amongst others. He was quite versatile. -- Al
 
Al, first time I saw it and the acting is superb. The ending -- who finally does it -- caught me by surprise. The West never ceases to surprise.
 
Dusting off the old thread, again. Watched "The Searchers" again today for the umpteenth time and just had to mention one of my favorite sequences/lines in the film. It is an example of Ford's subtlety and ACW lore. It occurs when near the end when the Lt. Greenhill character (played by Patick Wayne, the Duke's son), reports to Bond's Reverend Clayton character. While Greenhill is in conversation with Clayton, Wayne's Edwards character abruptly tells the Greenhill character to turn around. As Greenhill complies, Edwards says, "Yep, that's a Yankee cavalryman." Greenhill then turns back to Clayton to continue the talk when he suddenly realizes he's been insulted. It is a subtle insult, as Edwards, a former Confederate soldier, has basically said he could only recognize a Yankee cavalryman as he is fleeing, showing his back. Just a brief, brilliant moment in a movie filled with many such moments. -- Al
 
I saw Hombre tonight, with Paul Newman and Richard Boone, among others. Newman plays a white man who has lived among Native Americans for years. When he and others take a stage coach he is subject to racism by other passengers and is made to ride on top of the stagecoach but yet the other passengers ask for his assistance in saving them when they are robbed. Newman gives a fine performance although intentionally he is a man of few words. His facial expressions remind me of his acting in Cool Hand Luke; both movies were released in 1967: Hombre in March and Cool Hand Luke in November. Worth seeing if you haven't seen it.
 
I saw Hombre tonight, with Paul Newman and Richard Boone, among others. Newman plays a white man who has lived among Native Americans for years. When he and others take a stage coach he is subject to racism by other passengers and is made to ride on top of the stagecoach but yet the other passengers ask for his assistance in saving them when they are robbed. Newman gives a fine performance although intentionally he is a man of few words. His facial expressions remind me of his acting in Cool Hand Luke; both movies were released in 1967: Hombre in March and Cool Hand Luke in November. Worth seeing if you haven't seen it.
'Hombre' is a favorite of mine, seen it uncounted times yet will stop and watch it whenever I run across it. The whole cast does a fantastic job, the story is interesting, and it is hard not to like Newman at the height of his powers. Love the sequence where the embezzler, Favor (played by Fredric March) tries to run off with the water and money, gets caught by Russell (Newman) and they face off. Newman tells him to drop the gun instead of drawing on him because "even if you tie me, you're going to be dead". Great moment in a great film. -- Al
 
That is a great moment in the film. Another is towards the end when Newman and Diane Cilento (Jessie) discuss whether they should help Favor’s wife. No one has the courage except them to do so. There was also one scene where one of the characters mentions “the days of our lives.” I can’t recall if March said it but I wondered whether it was said as an allusion to The Best Years of our Lives.
 

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