KING & COUNTRY Dispatches -- February 2018 (1 Viewer)

[ExRanger]

It will be interesting to see if there will be some new German Grey figures to go with the Polish releases. Maybe some Germans surprised by the oncoming onslaught.

 

[zblang]

Israel has been accused of committing genocide and apartheid against the Palestinians.

Really? Comparing nazis to Israelis???
I think this is best discussed elsewhere or better yet, not at all

 

[mikemiller1955]

not at all is best here...

this is a thread killer topic for sure...

 

[tdubel]

Thanks Brad, just hard for me to understand why.......and how its explained to children who view them. Heh, I've had some visitors ask if I was a "war monger" because I collect toy soldiers! Anyway they will never be in my home.

Rich,

I have family who was in WW2, I married a Jewish Gal, her family goes back generations, etc. That said, I will tell you why I do have some of the baddies in my collection and house - ultimately I look at my collection as historical, not glorifying anything, just history, it happened. Since the days of Babylon, there have been atrocities occurring, that is a part of history, the Nazis are as bad or worse as any of them, they are just more recent, the atrocities were documented well, there are people still alive who lived through it, etc. Not telling you anything you don't know, but pointing out why they are in collections. The parades were a part of that period of time and are an interesting historical study to say the least.

Again, I collect history, the good the bad and ugly so to speak. I don't believe necessarily the smallness of our hobby is a hot bed of neo Nazis, I believe it is just history minded people collecting all different eras. I don't believe in any kind of censorship, I believe in transparency and from that I would hope that smart people will draw their own conclusions and areas of study.

Personally, the study of Nazi Germany is quite interesting in a lot of respects, that said, it doesn't mean that I admire, condone, support or in any way have a heroic or iconic viewpoint about them. As to how to explain them, my now 13 year old is a Civil War and WW2 buff (if you can be at that age!), he finds the entire era fascinating and his hero is Winston Churchill, so much so that he won the regional History Day documentary last year with one on Churchill. He understands that our display is in the context of history, not glorification, as a matter of fact, I classify it as a Warning!

Anyhow, this post is starting to resemble a term paper, but wanted to give you my viewpoint.


TD

 

[samwise II]

Really liking the return to the Streets of Old Hong Kong with the new figures recently. I have always been impressed with these figures and finally dove in about a year ago, catching up and finding long retired and new pieces.

A suggestion for Andy...as I am re-reading "Memoirs of a Geisha," I was thinking what wonderful figures K&C could make if Andy manufactured a geisha figure (or perhaps two geishas) as she (they) was strolling along the street, maybe with a gentleman friend on a daytime walk. I am thinking of a scene right out of the book and movie where the little girl (the main character) meets the Chairman for the first time and he buys her an ice cone. Wouldn't that make a cool scene for this line of figures?

Anyways, keep the new figures coming. I like them very much.
Glenn, aka Samwise II

 

[King & Country]

Really liking the return to the Streets of Old Hong Kong with the new figures recently. I have always been impressed with these figures and finally dove in about a year ago, catching up and finding long retired and new pieces.

A suggestion for Andy...as I am re-reading "Memoirs of a Geisha," I was thinking what wonderful figures K&C could make if Andy manufactured a geisha figure (or perhaps two geishas) as she (they) was strolling along the street, maybe with a gentleman friend on a daytime walk. I am thinking of a scene right out of the book and movie where the little girl (the main character) meets the Chairman for the first time and he buys her an ice cone. Wouldn't that make a cool scene for this line of figures?

Anyways, keep the new figures coming. I like them very much.
Glenn, aka Samwise II

Hi Glenn,
Many thanks for your appreciative email and suggestion...Re the 'Geisha' idea...Don't think she would quite fit into 'Streets of Old HongKong'...Perhaps 'Streets of Old Kyoto'....Now, there's an idea..?
Best wishes and happy collecting,
Andy.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

not at all is best here...

this is a thread killer topic for sure...

Mike , You ain't kidding{eek3}

Wayne

 

[King & Country]

Rich,

I have family who was in WW2, I married a Jewish Gal, her family goes back generations, etc. That said, I will tell you why I do have some of the baddies in my collection and house - ultimately I look at my collection as historical, not glorifying anything, just history, it happened. Since the days of Babylon, there have been atrocities occurring, that is a part of history, the Nazis are as bad or worse as any of them, they are just more recent, the atrocities were documented well, there are people still alive who lived through it, etc. Not telling you anything you don't know, but pointing out why they are in collections. The parades were a part of that period of time and are an interesting historical study to say the least.

Again, I collect history, the good the bad and ugly so to speak. I don't believe necessarily the smallness of our hobby is a hot bed of neo Nazis, I believe it is just history minded people collecting all different eras. I don't believe in any kind of censorship, I believe in transparency and from that I would hope that smart people will draw their own conclusions and areas of study.

Personally, the study of Nazi Germany is quite interesting in a lot of respects, that said, it doesn't mean that I admire, condone, support or in any way have a heroic or iconic viewpoint about them. As to how to explain them, my now 13 year old is a Civil War and WW2 buff (if you can be at that age!), he finds the entire era fascinating and his hero is Winston Churchill, so much so that he won the regional History Day documentary last year with one on Churchill. He understands that our display is in the context of history, not glorification, as a matter of fact, I classify it as a Warning!

Anyhow, this post is starting to resemble a term paper, but wanted to give you my viewpoint.


TD

Hi Tom,
Many thanks for your thoughts...your viewpoint echoes my own on this particular subject.

All of us make our own decisions on what we make and collect...and that's the simple beauty of it.

If something offends you for whatever reason don't buy it...I will respect that and live with your decision.

One of our biggest Middle Eastern collectors objected to our 'Six Day War' series and I can understand, if not share, his views. That, however did not stop me from continuing that series and expanding it.

Why..? You might ask...Well because that part of the world at that particular time still fascinates and intrigues me and I felt the conflict had been virtually forgotten in the world of 'Toy Soldiers'.

Same goes for Pre War Germany between the years 1933 and 1939...It may not be for everyone but it sure is popular all over the world as countless books, documentaries, movies, magazine articles...and even some toy soldiers prove...Surely we can't all be 'Closet Nazis..?'

Best wishes and happy collecting,
Andy.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Great post TD,

For me collecting TS is all about choice, history and having fun.......simple really.

What disappoints me is when some folks choose to be selective about history and use their own beliefs and perceptions to judge others.

It’s a hobby, nothing more, nothing less.......enjoy.

 

[Horus]

The IDF figures look great and are a great price and would be perfect partners for some of my Middle East scenic pieces but I just can't get drawn into another line alas. But I won't say never !{sm2}
With no Marines being issued this month it's giving me a chance to catch up on some older releases that I've hankered after such as the L of J boat, which I now have on order and think will fit in lots of Geographical areas and eras.

Steve

 

[Guy]

.

On a sour note I continue to be saddened by the popularity of "Nazis on parade". I know that history is history...good or bad. And while I do collect WWII Germans in action so I can highlight the Allies who defeated them in battle collecting figures of a genocidal and psychopathic regime on parade and celebrating is disturbing to me.
I know that this has been discussed ad-nauseum and Andy has addressed this with sincerity and logic.......still we live in a time where Neo-Nazism is on the rise and scares many civilized people.

My family too suffered under the Nazi regime ( an uncle died in a concentration camp, my father was a prisoner of war,German soldiers in our house for 4 years !!! etc .....) . But nobody is pointing a finger at my because I collect WW2 Allies and Germans in black and brown uniforms . This is a hobby not a political statement. When you reason like this , then forget about collecting Romans, Knights, Napoleon, ACW, Ancient Egypt, WW1 ( burning of Flemish cities etc ...)Japs, etc.....
this is my humble opinion
guy:smile2:

 

[The Military Workshop]

Rich, this has been discussed ad infinitum over the years to no resolution and I suggest you let it go. Notwithstanding and with no disrespect intended to some members who purchase these figures, some of us who were born in the immediate post war period (like you and I) have a disgust for these figures because we learned about the Nazi evil from our families who may have participated in the War (or lived through those times) or/and had relatives who died in the camps.

Brad

I understand your disgust at the figures and who they represent.

Some may recall I posted about 3/4 years ago about a display I did in a major Brisbane Museum. It was part of a major one year Collecting Exhibition (ie. stamps, coins, Snoopy etc) and the Curator, despite seeing the great variety of figures available, actually requested I display Nazis on parade. Not something I would have chosen for a 2.6m long display. I ended up doing a 1m wide Nazi parade with buildings and Hitler and his henchmen. I had Churchill with his Tommy gun standing behind Hitler. The other area contained 4 smaller dios mainly featuring Germans but each with a few Allies sneaking up on them (including the infamous DD172 British soldier with picture of Hitler). On the main opening day the Curator stood in front of the Nazis whilst being interviewed on TV. Clearly she was using them to stir up interest somehow. I thought that odd. Her first choice of subject would have been white soldiers killing Aboriginals if such figures were available.

This is a Museum that has so far managed to avoid commemorating WW1 centenary and may get around to it in November when they are supposed to be opening an ANZAC gallery with the only remaining WWI German tank, Mephisto.

6 months into the exhibition she called me up, whilst I was driving to work, to say a Jewish organisation had complained and requested the Nazis be removed. She was not happy about it and I resisted pointing out it was her choice. I said could replace them with Lighthorse which would have been my initial choice. However such was the pressure from Museum bosses that they removed them within a couple of hours and the area remained empty for over a week whilst I sorted out when could go in and set up replacements.

I was not happy with the censorship aspect of the Museum giving in to the pressure (even more so when they picked the figures). I wrote an email to the Curator asking they forward to the Jewish organisation concerned. I expressed the view that if a father and teenage son viewed the display then it might lead to a conversation or Googling about what the Nazis did in WW2 (not something covered in my two kids schooling). If the display got viewers to learn about the Nazis and what they did I considered it a good thing. If we hide the Nazis then who killed the Jews in WW2 and committed the various atrocities of the war. I doubt my message was forwarded.

Likewise if somebody went into a collectors house and saw such figures I would like to think the owner would be explaining the atrocious history behind the leaders and Nazi troops etc to somebody who might not be familiar. Again I think that it is a good thing.

Lest We Forget.

 

[jazzeum]

The last two pages, more or less, is why it's a waste of time to discuss this issue, which has been beaten to death in all the years this Forum has been around, although I completely agree with Rich. If people want to collect these figures that's their business but I have no interest in knowing these people.

 

[BLReed]

..... If people want to collect these figures that's their business but I have no interest in knowing these people.

Darn, now I have to start collecting them.

 

[Guest]

Happy for more Israeli soldiers and looking forward to the halftrack, more armor and Egyptian/Syrian adversaries. The backdrop buildings are great and hopefully K&C will consider producing these for the general collector population.

On a sour note I continue to be saddened by the popularity of "Nazis on parade". I know that history is history...good or bad. And while I do collect WWII Germans in action so I can highlight the Allies who defeated them in battle collecting figures of a genocidal and psychopathic regime on parade and celebrating is disturbing to me.
I know that this has been discussed ad-nauseum and Andy has addressed this with sincerity and logic.......still we live in a time where Neo-Nazism is on the rise and scares many civilized people.

I feel there is some Hypocrisy and double standards in your email, you are happy to collect Israeli figures, a country who is occupying parts of the Syrian Golan Heights, the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip and Jordanian-annexed West Bank. Israel is a country with the most UN sanctions ever and THIS IS HAPPENING NOW and was following the 1967 war, which the Israeli figures represent. While not happy collecting Nazis figure, which to me was one of the most abhorrent and evil regimes which ever existed, I also do not collect as they made me feel a little "uncomfortable" displaying so I sold them. But I do collect the Waffen SS and the German Army figures, amongst which are Wittmann and Peiper, both absolute Nazi's, so I too have a bit of a double standard going on. For example do you also collect Napoleonic French? a regime who invade the majority of Europe and massacred people on masse in Spain. Do you collect The Real West series, a period where you could say genocide was committed on American Indians? How would you explain those figures to an American Indian? as it was probably the darkest period in their history!

I collect military figures and vehicles, which represent the operational mechanics of war and they interest me. I do draw the line and would not collect for example figures showing murder or atrocities and I think 99% of people on this forum would not, we all draw the line somewhere and that place is different for everyone. Lets get back to talking about Toy soldiers shall we.

 

[bridport]

Re: The Italians are coming...

Some of our Folgore have the collar tabs... albeit partially hidden by webbing straps...on others you cannot see them because of their action-figure pose...None of the figures are standing in the positions illustrated or carrying the minimum of fighting equipment.
Andy.

I've been waiting a long time for these Folgore, and they look very good indeed.

I agree about the blue tunic insignia being an important part of the Folgore identity. I'm glad to hear that some of the figures have this, and it would be great to have a close up of those that do in order to take look.

These little details are important, much like the absent swooping eagle on the recent Fallschirmjager helmets.

Maybe it is a drive to keep costs down?

Nevertheless, I will certainly be collecting these Folgore!

 

[nysoldiers]

I feel there is some Hypocrisy and double standards in your email, you are happy to collect Israeli figures, a country who is occupying parts of the Syrian Golan Heights, the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip and Jordanian-annexed West Bank. Israel is a country with the most UN sanctions ever and THIS IS HAPPENING NOW and was following the 1967 war, which the Israeli figures represent. While not happy collecting Nazis figure, which to me was one of the most abhorrent and evil regimes which ever existed, I also do not collect as they made me feel a little "uncomfortable" displaying so I sold them. But I do collect the Waffen SS and the German Army figures, amongst which are Wittmann and Peiper, both absolute Nazi's, so I too have a bit of a double standard going on. For example do you also collect Napoleonic French? a regime who invade the majority of Europe and massacred people on masse in Spain. Do you collect The Real West series, a period where you could say genocide was committed on American Indians? How would you explain those figures to an American Indian? as it was probably the darkest period in their history!

I collect military figures and vehicles, which represent the operational mechanics of war and they interest me. I do draw the line and would not collect for example figures showing murder or atrocities and I think 99% of people on this forum would not, we all draw the line somewhere and that place is different for everyone. Lets get back to talking about Toy soldiers shall we.

Just a quick correction.....I'm not "happy to collect Israeli figures".....I'm happy to collect both Israeli and Arab figures depicting a particular conflict, isn't this what we all do when we collect toy soldiers? I'm not collecting Jewish settlers on parade or Palestinians, Hamas or Hezbollah figures on parade.
If we are interested in military history we collect the combatants from both sides, it doesn't necessarily mean we support one side or another or a particular ideology.
Doesn't it seem odd to you and others that the UN has sanctioned Israel more than Syria and their murderous Assad, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Kadafi, Iran (the largest sponsor of terrorist groups in the world),Saudi Arabia......and all the other Middle Eastern countries who are run by ruthless dictators?......You think there is some prejudice here?
Back to Nazis on Parade, I think it sends the wrong message and is hurtful to many. But I appreciate the civil explanations and arguments. True that in some historical context they can be used as a lesson, fine in museums but in private collections care must be taken especially with impressionable children who see parades as positive and entertaining. This is exactly what the Nazis used their parades, spectacles and symbols for.....to brainwash the young into their sick ideology. My opinion and we can agree to disagree.

 

[nysoldiers]

I understand your disgust at the figures and who they represent.

Some may recall I posted about 3/4 years ago about a display I did in a major Brisbane Museum. It was part of a major one year Collecting Exhibition (ie. stamps, coins, Snoopy etc) and the Curator, despite seeing the great variety of figures available, actually requested I display Nazis on parade. Not something I would have chosen for a 2.6m long display. I ended up doing a 1m wide Nazi parade with buildings and Hitler and his henchmen. I had Churchill with his Tommy gun standing behind Hitler. The other area contained 4 smaller dios mainly featuring Germans but each with a few Allies sneaking up on them (including the infamous DD172 British soldier with picture of Hitler). On the main opening day the Curator stood in front of the Nazis whilst being interviewed on TV. Clearly she was using them to stir up interest somehow. I thought that odd. Her first choice of subject would have been white soldiers killing Aboriginals if such figures were available.

This is a Museum that has so far managed to avoid commemorating WW1 centenary and may get around to it in November when they are supposed to be opening an ANZAC gallery with the only remaining WWI German tank, Mephisto.

6 months into the exhibition she called me up, whilst I was driving to work, to say a Jewish organisation had complained and requested the Nazis be removed. She was not happy about it and I resisted pointing out it was her choice. I said could replace them with Lighthorse which would have been my initial choice. However such was the pressure from Museum bosses that they removed them within a couple of hours and the area remained empty for over a week whilst I sorted out when could go in and set up replacements.

I was not happy with the censorship aspect of the Museum giving in to the pressure (even more so when they picked the figures). I wrote an email to the Curator asking they forward to the Jewish organisation concerned. I expressed the view that if a father and teenage son viewed the display then it might lead to a conversation or Googling about what the Nazis did in WW2 (not something covered in my two kids schooling). If the display got viewers to learn about the Nazis and what they did I considered it a good thing. If we hide the Nazis then who killed the Jews in WW2 and committed the various atrocities of the war. I doubt my message was forwarded.

Likewise if somebody went into a collectors house and saw such figures I would like to think the owner would be explaining the atrocious history behind the leaders and Nazi troops etc to somebody who might not be familiar. Again I think that it is a good thing.

Lest We Forget.

I agree that in the proper context (e.g. museums) these figures can serve a learning experience. As I have said elsewhere, in private collections care must be taken to explain to impressionable children who love parades that these people were evil and misguided. Certainly there will be many people from different walks of life who could be offended or scared off. I don't know anyone, regardless of religion or ethnicity, who would let their children play in a house with a large display of Nazis on parade. Granted there are people I know who are turned off by my collecting of toy soldiers in general. They won't let their children play with soldiers or have toy guns. In many cases I have shown them how my collecting can help to teach history. My six year old grandson knows more about the American Revolution then his teacher!

 

[The Military Workshop]

Israel is a country with the most UN sanctions ever and THIS IS HAPPENING NOW and was following the 1967 war, which the Israeli figures represent. /QUOTE]

The fact the UN has sanctioned Israel far more than any other country is more of a negative towards the UN than it is to Israel. There are plenty of other more "worthy" countries, of sanctions, than Israel.

 

[King & Country]

Just a quick correction.....I'm not "happy to collect Israeli figures".....I'm happy to collect both Israeli and Arab figures depicting a particular conflict, isn't this what we all do when we collect toy soldiers? I'm not collecting Jewish settlers on parade or Palestinians, Hamas or Hezbollah figures on parade.
If we are interested in military history we collect the combatants from both sides, it doesn't necessarily mean we support one side or another or a particular ideology.
Doesn't it seem odd to you and others that the UN has sanctioned Israel more than Syria and their murderous Assad, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Kadafi, Iran (the largest sponsor of terrorist groups in the world),Saudi Arabia......and all the other Middle Eastern countries who are run by ruthless dictators?......You think there is some prejudice here?
Back to Nazis on Parade, I think it sends the wrong message and is hurtful to many. But I appreciate the civil explanations and arguments. True that in some historical context they can be used as a lesson, fine in museums but in private collections care must be taken especially with impressionable children who see parades as positive and entertaining. This is exactly what the Nazis used their parades, spectacles and symbols for.....to brainwash the young into their sick ideology. My opinion and we can agree to disagree. (Quote)



Hi Guys,
I fully respect NY's right not to like something and find it disagreeable into the bargain, I can also agree with Brad that the subject of 'Berlin '38' has been well and truly argued over time and time again with usually the same result.

BUT let's look at the wider picture for just a moment ...What all of us may find objectionable differs dramatically according to our own particular beliefs and historical interests.

If you are going to 'disown' or even 'disrespect' any one who happens to collect a particular type of toy soldier that we personally object to...Why stop there..?

Why not go down to your local bookstore and demand that they remove any books from the shelves that personally offend you or, in your opinion, glorify or pictorialise aspects of say 'The Israeli Army'...'The Confederacy' ...or even 'The Third Reich' come to that.

After that contact Television Stations and Production Companies that produce documentaries and motion pictures that do not subscribe to your view of other historical events that you find abhorrent.

Do the same with history magazines ...if you feel the same way about them and many of their articles and photo spreads.

It's a very slippery slope you're going down when you or anyone else wants to impose what you personally consider objectionable onto others. The best answer, I believe, is to live and let live yourself and allow others to do the same...Something the Nazis in their horrific and murderous 12 years never allowed any of their opponents to do!

Best wishes and happy collecting,
Andy.