KING & COUNTRY Dispatches -- February 2018 (3 Viewers)

[nysoldiers]

Rich,

I have family who was in WW2, I married a Jewish Gal, her family goes back generations, etc. That said, I will tell you why I do have some of the baddies in my collection and house - ultimately I look at my collection as historical, not glorifying anything, just history, it happened. Since the days of Babylon, there have been atrocities occurring, that is a part of history, the Nazis are as bad or worse as any of them, they are just more recent, the atrocities were documented well, there are people still alive who lived through it, etc. Not telling you anything you don't know, but pointing out why they are in collections. The parades were a part of that period of time and are an interesting historical study to say the least.

Again, I collect history, the good the bad and ugly so to speak. I don't believe necessarily the smallness of our hobby is a hot bed of neo Nazis, I believe it is just history minded people collecting all different eras. I don't believe in any kind of censorship, I believe in transparency and from that I would hope that smart people will draw their own conclusions and areas of study.

Personally, the study of Nazi Germany is quite interesting in a lot of respects, that said, it doesn't mean that I admire, condone, support or in any way have a heroic or iconic viewpoint about them. As to how to explain them, my now 13 year old is a Civil War and WW2 buff (if you can be at that age!), he finds the entire era fascinating and his hero is Winston Churchill, so much so that he won the regional History Day documentary last year with one on Churchill. He understands that our display is in the context of history, not glorification, as a matter of fact, I classify it as a Warning!

Anyhow, this post is starting to resemble a term paper, but wanted to give you my viewpoint.


TD

Thanks Tom,
I respect your reasoning and civility. Unfortunately I have first hand experience with several collectors who have expressed their Nazi sympathies and collect these figures to help teach others their hateful ideology. We live in a world where Fascism and Neo-Naziism are on the rise and we have to be on guard.
That said I believe that most collectors just look at these as history and pageantry. I certainly don't question Andy's motives, I believe he is an honorable man who runs a successful business that can be controversial at times. I have been a loyal customer since K&C's inception and will continue to buy what I enjoy.
So in conclusion, its not something I would ever collect but I would ask people who do collect to be careful how they explain this series, especially to children. The Nazis used parades, spectacles and icons to brainwash children into their sick ideologies. I am not asking for censorship just to be sensitive and responsible.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Very very well said Rick.

As one who has been exceptionally critical of this range since it's inception, the timeliness of this discussion really couldn't come at a better time as it is on the heels of me taking my family to Germany, so that they could see some of what my childhood was like as the son of a US serviceman, before I went on to serve myself. We visited all of my favorite towns over the Christmas holiday and one that was sitting right next door to a landmark Roman battle but was still undiscovered when I lived there.

I was immediately taken aback during our 3 day stay in Nuremburg about how many Menorahs I saw on open display in the windows and shops of Jewish homes. Here we were walking in the midst of what was once the hometown of Nazi-ism and several decades later, those persecuted are open to freely worship as they see fit. It was a really nice thing to see. I am very happy for the German people for the great strides they have made in this direction. I can also say, I do believe my wife and I saw what could only be considered an act of racial prejudice against a Chinese women by a group of German teams who threw firecrackers in her direction on a back street. Admittedly, a similar scene probably plays out in more ways than I care to admit here in the States.

So what's my point? I really had a wonderful time in Germany. The nations history is a gift from it's previous generations to it's current and future generations. If you look at all the castles, the sweeping music, the beautiful art and architecture and the delicious food and beer, it all makes Germany so much more than goose-steppers. I find it really sad, as I walked all around the walled cities like Rothenburg, Regensburg, Nuremburg and the like, that none of the stories of the German states (houses) are known to anyone here in the States. It's as if this nation that existed for thousands of years, can only be discussed here in the states from 1933 to 1945. There really is so much much more to discover and love about Germany than that. The story of Arminius, who took up arms against the hated Romans, and then all the stories of the knights of the Rennaisance. Sadly, all the stores I went to over there that discussed these topics were all in German, well beyond my ability to read and comprehend. Even more sad, when I get here in the States, and go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon, nothing can be found touching on those topics. It's as if Americans don't want to believe anything but a Nazi Germany could ever have existed. They are utterly ignorant of the fact we have been fighting Germany in some shape way or form since the Revolution.

Still, looking at my country now, and the backlash I feel as a white professional male, I do get very worried about my sons and what the future holds for them. I have seen many transformations of the civil fabric here in the states during my 45 years of existence. And I think it is mostly for the good, but I fear for my sons being guilted into feeling shame for things that happened in our nations past that there was no way to control (and Dave and Pat, that is where I will take my post back out of the political lol {sm3}). I am of German- Italian heritage. Returning to Germany, I left being very proud to be of German ancestry. I told my family as we stood there on the Varus battlefield- this is one of those very unique places in the world where we very well could have had ancient ancestors who were on both sides of the battlefield. It got very quiet amongst both my sons and my daughter as that point sunk in.

Am I in jeopardy of becoming a Neo-Nazi- cmon, of course not. I still honor my grandfather and the sacrifices he and his generation made. I will never stop getting very glassy eyed watching my Rangers storm Omaha on SPR and will never feel anything but indifference when they shot the Nazis- honorably or not- But what made him my hero wasn't the wars he fought, but how, late in his life, he erased elements of hate he carried for so long in his life. He was a role model to me and showed me that anyone can change.

And for the record, while I loved Germany, and the history and delicious food and drink-the Germans (And yes, this is a generalization), have absolutely nothing on my UK and ANZAC friends. Not even close, while Germany is chock full of history, My UK and Commonwealth brothers and sisters are just the most special people on planet Earth. I absolutely adore each and every one of you.

 

[Guest]

Just a quick correction.....I'm not "happy to collect Israeli figures".....I'm happy to collect both Israeli and Arab figures depicting a particular conflict, isn't this what we all do when we collect toy soldiers? I'm not collecting Jewish settlers on parade or Palestinians, Hamas or Hezbollah figures on parade.
If we are interested in military history we collect the combatants from both sides, it doesn't necessarily mean we support one side or another or a particular ideology.
Doesn't it seem odd to you and others that the UN has sanctioned Israel more than Syria and their murderous Assad, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Kadafi, Iran (the largest sponsor of terrorist groups in the world),Saudi Arabia......and all the other Middle Eastern countries who are run by ruthless dictators?......You think there is some prejudice here?
Back to Nazis on Parade, I think it sends the wrong message and is hurtful to many. But I appreciate the civil explanations and arguments. True that in some historical context they can be used as a lesson, fine in museums but in private collections care must be taken especially with impressionable children who see parades as positive and entertaining. This is exactly what the Nazis used their parades, spectacles and symbols for.....to brainwash the young into their sick ideology. My opinion and we can agree to disagree.

Hi

I think we are agreeing on way more than we disagree on, the Nazis on Parade are a no no for me and you, your comment "we collect the combatants from both sides, it doesn't necessarily mean we support one side or another or a particular ideology", I was saying in a lesser way when I said I collected operational figures. I collect combat troops of both sides in WW2 and follow your ethos on not having to follow the ideology. I totally agree on your final comment.
On the Israeli sanctions, I agree, but the Israeli conflict has been ongoing for decades in its current form and centuries overall and the Syrian conflict is around 6 years old, but two wrongs do not make a right, I think they both and the others you mentioned should be punished. however, I think the difference in other Middle East maybe oil and arms sales.
Of my collection when people see it there are certain figures they like, one is the pooing German WS figure and the pissing Brit Tommy, which I point out and kids find funny. Others are the Romans, which is a time in history that mirrors the Nazi era but lasted hundreds of years but as John Cleese's said "What have the Romans ever done for us?" A comment that could not be said by the Nazis.

Good discussion, calm and measured, a pleasure, no rants or personal inflamed comments.

To throw petrol on a fire - how would a Trump or Hilary Clinton sell! THIS FINAL COMMENT IS A JOKE AND NOT MEANT FOR COMMENT, it is a Friday afternoon and I am being mischievous

 

[Larry Allen]

Hi Glenn,
Many thanks for your appreciative email and suggestion...Re the 'Geisha' idea...Don't think she would quite fit into 'Streets of Old HongKong'...Perhaps 'Streets of Old Kyoto'....Now, there's an idea..?
Best wishes and happy collecting,
Andy.

I don't know about "OLD" Kyoto, Andy ... but have you considered the ... "1944 Streets of Kyoto" ...:rolleyes2:

That will allow the use of many of the JN series figures and possibly some of the SoHK diorama pieces while introducing a "somewhat" peaceful setting of war time Japan, with soldiers, civilians, shop keepers, Allied prisoners and such. Sign me up for that one!

ALL IN FAVOR ... say "AYE" {sm4}

--- LaRRy

 

[Horus]

I don't know about "OLD" Kyoto, Andy ... but have you considered the ... "1944 Streets of Kyoto" ...:rolleyes2:

That will allow the use of many of the JN series figures and possibly some of the SoHK diorama pieces while introducing a "somewhat" peaceful setting of war time Japan, with soldiers, civilians, shop keepers, Allied prisoners and such. Sign me up for that one!

ALL IN FAVOR ... say "AYE" {sm4}

--- LaRRy

A cautious Aye Larry !

How about peasant farmers, Male and Female up to their knees in Paddy fields, carrying loads on bamboo poles, Thinking Refugees (like K&C have done for FOB) China, Burma, Pacific in General. Sort of figures that would fit WW2, Korea. French Indo China, Vietnam.
And how about some figures from "Bridge on the River Kwai" !

Steve

 

[tdubel]

Thanks Tom,
I respect your reasoning and civility. Unfortunately I have first hand experience with several collectors who have expressed their Nazi sympathies and collect these figures to help teach others their hateful ideology. We live in a world where Fascism and Neo-Naziism are on the rise and we have to be on guard.
That said I believe that most collectors just look at these as history and pageantry. I certainly don't question Andy's motives, I believe he is an honorable man who runs a successful business that can be controversial at times. I have been a loyal customer since K&C's inception and will continue to buy what I enjoy.
So in conclusion, its not something I would ever collect but I would ask people who do collect to be careful how they explain this series, especially to children. The Nazis used parades, spectacles and icons to brainwash children into their sick ideologies. I am not asking for censorship just to be sensitive and responsible.

Rich,
completely understand your viewpoint and agree and respect all of it, I understand where you are coming from and they are good points to ponder. I am probably naive as to some folk's viewpoints and there "like" for the Nazis. I feel sorry for them! To your point, one of my biggest reasons is the education of it and my son. I don't think it is pointless to discuss this as there are some good viewpoints and quite honestly interesting to hear other points of concern and views. I do agree that objectivity, sensibility and responsibility is incumbent upon everyone when dealing with controversial subjects. Too much today is done on raw emotion and ignorance of facts, maybe that is a good lesson to learn from this discussion!

Brad - I hope you are still talking to me!!!!! if I have a few of these in my collection. (Just kidding, I understand what you were saying and not taking offense).

I guess also, no matter how ugly history is, it interests me from an educational standpoint. The one thing I don't like in this thread is any comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany, no matter what you think of Israel's motives, etc, IMO any comparison is disturbing and disappointing to me as an educated human being. The Nazis were in a horrid class by themselves and to quote Andy's original tagline "A Warning in Miniature", that is exactly how I view it, it is a teachable backdrop.

Ok, I am going to agree with everyone else that we should stick to this month's goodies released by Andy!

Respectfully,

Tom

 

[jazzeum]

Tom,

Of course, you are my good friend, as is Hans, who collects these. I was being too broad and could have (should have) avoided the last phrase.

Ultimately it’s up to each person to collect what interests them. I think it was Guy who said that history is replete with ugly incidents and atrocities, to the beginning of time no doubt. The passage of time tends to soothe the savage breast.

Brad

 

[ivanmoe]

C. “AT LAST THE FOLGORE!”
For several years now, many of K&C’s Italian collectors have been urging us to produce some of these famous fighting figures for use in their ‘DESERT DISPLAYS’ of the war in North Africa...
Well, here are some to begin with, including a much requested Italian vehicle to accompany them.

View attachment 226734

IF041 “Kneeling Machine Gunner”
Crouching behind his ‘Breda M37 machine gun’ this Folgore paratrooper takes careful aim at the enemy.


It’s an unfair assumption that ALL Italian soldiers during WW2 were badly-led, under-equipped and ill-suited to military life...
Among the finest WW2 soldiers of that conflict were the paratroopers of the ‘Folgore’ airborne division. Their ‘esprit de corps’ and fighting abilities were praised and valued by none other than Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, who considered them some of the best and most reliable in the Afrika Korps.

IF042 “Folgore Fire Team” (3-man set)
A kneeling NCO firing his Beretta sub machine gun is ably supported by 2 x riflemen... Note the specially designed loose and practical uniforms worn by the Folgore and their Italian paratroop helmets.

IF043 “Folgore Grenadier”
An extra paratrooper prepares to hurl a grenade at the opposition.

IF044 “The Desert Sahariana”
The SPA-Viberti AS.42 Sahariana was the most famous Italian reconnaissance vehicle of WW2. Specially-designed for desert operations it had four-wheel steering and ample space for extra fuel, water and ammunition.
Its origins go back to requests from Italian forces operating in North Africa for a long range, highly manoeuvrable vehicle able to perform duties and tasks similar to those used by the British ‘Long Range Desert Group’
It could be fitted with an array of different weapons... Our K&C model includes a 20mm Breda cannon as well as a German machine gun.
Although primarily used in the Desert a number were shipped to the Eastern Front and operated by both Italian and German troops there.

AVAILABLE: Mid to Late February

It’s a shame that John Gambale didn’t live to see these. He’d be ecstatic.

-Moe

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hi Glenn,
Many thanks for your appreciative email and suggestion...Re the 'Geisha' idea...Don't think she would quite fit into 'Streets of Old HongKong'...Perhaps 'Streets of Old Kyoto'....Now, there's an idea..?
Best wishes and happy collecting,
Andy.

Old Kyoto sparks the imagination. Was it the movie Rhonin with De Niro that had the guy making the wonderful diorama with the Japanese building and warriors? And some of the scenery from The Last Samurai in diorama format would be fun to do. Never an end to where this hobby goes.

 

[tdubel]

It’s a shame that John Gambale didn’t live to see these. He’d be ecstatic.

-Moe

No kidding! I like this new one too!
Tom

 

[King Tiger II]

Another great month release from K&C.

Trying to focus on this month dispatch.
Serge

 

[nysoldiers]

Hi

I think we are agreeing on way more than we disagree on, the Nazis on Parade are a no no for me and you, your comment "we collect the combatants from both sides, it doesn't necessarily mean we support one side or another or a particular ideology", I was saying in a lesser way when I said I collected operational figures. I collect combat troops of both sides in WW2 and follow your ethos on not having to follow the ideology. I totally agree on your final comment.
On the Israeli sanctions, I agree, but the Israeli conflict has been ongoing for decades in its current form and centuries overall and the Syrian conflict is around 6 years old, but two wrongs do not make a right, I think they both and the others you mentioned should be punished. however, I think the difference in other Middle East maybe oil and arms sales.
Of my collection when people see it there are certain figures they like, one is the pooing German WS figure and the pissing Brit Tommy, which I point out and kids find funny. Others are the Romans, which is a time in history that mirrors the Nazi era but lasted hundreds of years but as John Cleese's said "What have the Romans ever done for us?" A comment that could not be said by the Nazis.

Good discussion, calm and measured, a pleasure, no rants or personal inflamed comments.

To throw petrol on a fire - how would a Trump or Hilary Clinton sell! THIS FINAL COMMENT IS A JOKE AND NOT MEANT FOR COMMENT, it is a Friday afternoon and I am being mischievous

Thanks, points well taken and I agree its nice to have a healthy discussion/debate without name calling and emotion.
As to your last sentence....I wouldn't buy either!

 

[nysoldiers]

Very very well said Rick.

As one who has been exceptionally critical of this range since it's inception, the timeliness of this discussion really couldn't come at a better time as it is on the heels of me taking my family to Germany, so that they could see some of what my childhood was like as the son of a US serviceman, before I went on to serve myself. We visited all of my favorite towns over the Christmas holiday and one that was sitting right next door to a landmark Roman battle but was still undiscovered when I lived there.

I was immediately taken aback during our 3 day stay in Nuremburg about how many Menorahs I saw on open display in the windows and shops of Jewish homes. Here we were walking in the midst of what was once the hometown of Nazi-ism and several decades later, those persecuted are open to freely worship as they see fit. It was a really nice thing to see. I am very happy for the German people for the great strides they have made in this direction. I can also say, I do believe my wife and I saw what could only be considered an act of racial prejudice against a Chinese women by a group of German teams who threw firecrackers in her direction on a back street. Admittedly, a similar scene probably plays out in more ways than I care to admit here in the States.

So what's my point? I really had a wonderful time in Germany. The nations history is a gift from it's previous generations to it's current and future generations. If you look at all the castles, the sweeping music, the beautiful art and architecture and the delicious food and beer, it all makes Germany so much more than goose-steppers. I find it really sad, as I walked all around the walled cities like Rothenburg, Regensburg, Nuremburg and the like, that none of the stories of the German states (houses) are known to anyone here in the States. It's as if this nation that existed for thousands of years, can only be discussed here in the states from 1933 to 1945. There really is so much much more to discover and love about Germany than that. The story of Arminius, who took up arms against the hated Romans, and then all the stories of the knights of the Rennaisance. Sadly, all the stores I went to over there that discussed these topics were all in German, well beyond my ability to read and comprehend. Even more sad, when I get here in the States, and go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon, nothing can be found touching on those topics. It's as if Americans don't want to believe anything but a Nazi Germany could ever have existed. They are utterly ignorant of the fact we have been fighting Germany in some shape way or form since the Revolution.

Still, looking at my country now, and the backlash I feel as a white professional male, I do get very worried about my sons and what the future holds for them. I have seen many transformations of the civil fabric here in the states during my 45 years of existence. And I think it is mostly for the good, but I fear for my sons being guilted into feeling shame for things that happened in our nations past that there was no way to control (and Dave and Pat, that is where I will take my post back out of the political lol {sm3}). I am of German- Italian heritage. Returning to Germany, I left being very proud to be of German ancestry. I told my family as we stood there on the Varus battlefield- this is one of those very unique places in the world where we very well could have had ancient ancestors who were on both sides of the battlefield. It got very quiet amongst both my sons and my daughter as that point sunk in.

Am I in jeopardy of becoming a Neo-Nazi- cmon, of course not. I still honor my grandfather and the sacrifices he and his generation made. I will never stop getting very glassy eyed watching my Rangers storm Omaha on SPR and will never feel anything but indifference when they shot the Nazis- honorably or not- But what made him my hero wasn't the wars he fought, but how, late in his life, he erased elements of hate he carried for so long in his life. He was a role model to me and showed me that anyone can change.

And for the record, while I loved Germany, and the history and delicious food and drink-the Germans (And yes, this is a generalization), have absolutely nothing on my UK and ANZAC friends. Not even close, while Germany is chock full of history, My UK and Commonwealth brothers and sisters are just the most special people on planet Earth. I absolutely adore each and every one of you.

Thanks Chris, very interesting and relatable. My dad was born in Germany but came to the USA in 1925 with his parents. My grandfather who was a German Jew fought for his country in WWI as a captain on the Eastern front. My grandfather was one of the best "fencers" (dueling/eppe) in Germany but was kept out of the major tournaments because of his religion (the Prussians were jealous of him). My father was the NY City fencing champion and had a shot at making the US Olympic team if WWII hadn't come along. He served for five years in the Army Air Force attached to the British 8th Army in North Africa. I have visited Germany many times for business and pleasure. My company had offices in Frankfurt and Munich and I still correspond with some of my former employees. I admire the Germans for not running away from their past and using it as a teaching lesson. I openly discussed WWII and the Holocaust with many Germans I worked with. I am sure that many had parents and grandparents who participated so it must have been difficult for them. They don't have to apologize for the past but should always be vigilant not to repeat the same mistakes. Germany is a beautiful country that has made amazing strides in manufacturing and technology. I don't hold anything against the post war generations. So I don't ask people to be apologists for the past just to be honest about it and do their past to learn from it.
By the way my wife is of Italian descent so we have a lot in common.

 

[Poppo]

Speaking of nazi parading....One miserable dirty nazi sentry is ok, isn't it? {sm4}
PS: I bought one just to also have this german uniform.

 

[OzDigger]

It’s a shame that John Gambale didn’t live to see these. He’d be ecstatic.

-Moe

Yeah, John would have been all over them, they were often on his wants list. And man, did he post a lot of lists, they used to drive some members crazy, but I kinda enjoyed them as he was obviously very passionate about that theatre. Maybe Andy will bring out some shirtless Aussies.....one day :wink2:

 

[OzDigger]

Old Kyoto sparks the imagination. Was it the movie Rhonin with De Niro that had the guy making the wonderful diorama with the Japanese building and warriors? And some of the scenery from The Last Samurai in diorama format would be fun to do. Never an end to where this hobby goes.

Yes, it was 'Ronin' where the retired guy was painting some figures for his castle display. One of my favourite movies, partly because of the car chases, cars being another of my many interests.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Yeah, John would have been all over them, they were often on his wants list. And man, did he post a lot of lists, they used to drive some members crazy, but I kinda enjoyed them as he was obviously very passionate about that theatre. Maybe Andy will bring out some shirtless Aussies.....one day :wink2:

Just what we need, some bronzed Aussie's enjoying a 'sand bath' and frying eggs on a new Matilda tank. :wink2:

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Yeah, John would have been all over them, they were often on his wants list. And man, did he post a lot of lists, they used to drive some members crazy, but I kinda enjoyed them as he was obviously very passionate about that theatre. Maybe Andy will bring out some shirtless Aussies.....one day :wink2:

Hi guys, Anyone know how old John was ?

Wayne

 

[Poppo]

The Folgore soldiers are very nice and realistic, please note the red italian hand grenade( SRCM Mod. 35). After 1943, these grenades were used by the germans.

 

[Napoleon1er]

I feel there is some Hypocrisy and double standards in your email, you are happy to collect Israeli figures, a country who is occupying parts of the Syrian Golan Heights, the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip and Jordanian-annexed West Bank. Israel is a country with the most UN sanctions ever and THIS IS HAPPENING NOW and was following the 1967 war, which the Israeli figures represent. While not happy collecting Nazis figure, which to me was one of the most abhorrent and evil regimes which ever existed, I also do not collect as they made me feel a little "uncomfortable" displaying so I sold them. But I do collect the Waffen SS and the German Army figures, amongst which are Wittmann and Peiper, both absolute Nazi's, so I too have a bit of a double standard going on. For example do you also collect Napoleonic French? a regime who invade the majority of Europe and massacred people on masse in Spain. Do you collect The Real West series, a period where you could say genocide was committed on American Indians? How would you explain those figures to an American Indian? as it was probably the darkest period in their history!

I collect military figures and vehicles, which represent the operational mechanics of war and they interest me. I do draw the line and would not collect for example figures showing murder or atrocities and I think 99% of people on this forum would not, we all draw the line somewhere and that place is different for everyone. Lets get back to talking about Toy soldiers shall we.

I won’t stoop so low as to address the anti-Semitic comparison you have made between Jews and Nazis, but I will say that there is a reason politics are not allowed on this forum. I hope the moderators will act appropriately and delete both your comment and any other comments (including this one) related to this subject.

Please keep in mind that you are making accusations against forum members. I have personally worked to build settlements in the Judean hills. You have every right to hate me because of my actions or because I am a Jew or both, but please keep your hate off this forum.