My Flat Collection (2 Viewers)

MikeNick said:
Ray.
Hi.
I admire your Minoans. Where did you find them?
Thanks
mikenick
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Hi Mikenick,
these are actually 2 groups I picked up on Ebay, you might note some are a bit darker in color, that was the first group I got and peaked my interest. I found a second unpainted group and commissioned the job. I'm actually glad you asked, it made me think and I knew I had more, did some digging in the storage and found this group as well. will get them into a proper glass case and may shuffle figures between the two groups. I particularly like the coloring done on this bull.
Ray



 
Horus said:
A very interesting and attractive collection I can certainly see the draw to such figures. :salute::
Especially like the Minoans as well.
Steve
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Hi Steve and thanks!
I love the diversity of topics with flats, I have said it many times before but it is true to this very day, that though I look through sights and auctions nearly everyday I see sets and castings I've never seen before on a daily basis.
These were advertised as from the Battle of Crecy. Definately 100 years war but I'm having trouble with the hearldry and flag as Crecy.
Ray











 
nmrocks said:
Hi Steve and thanks!
I love the diversity of topics with flats, I have said it many times before but it is true to this very day, that though I look through sights and auctions nearly everyday I see sets and castings I've never seen before on a daily basis.
These were advertised as from the Battle of Crecy. Definately 100 years war but I'm having trouble with the hearldry and flag as Crecy.
Ray











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Hi Ray. I've had a look at the Standard - and am having trouble too.

The Standard appears to be simple enough - as Segar's Roll shows this as arms number 176, Stephen de Pencestre.. But he died in 1298 - and the Battle of Crecy was in 1346. Here's the device here;


http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/G-161-212.html


The knight bearing the coat of arms on shield and surcoat " Argent, a bend between six martlets gules"{White/Silver background with six birds and a dividing bar diagonally across the shield} - appears to be Baron Thomas de Furnville (died 1364) - so could have been at Crecy - not sure ???? But look up coat of arms here:

http://aspilogia.com/N-Parliamentary_Roll/index.html

Your archers are wearing Gambesons, which are a thick padded surcoat - (also frequently worn under armour too, for comfort and to reduce chafing of metal plates). The colours were often varied - but this green and white versions could be a nod in the direction of the Welsh archers of Richard II - who wore this arrangement (he was King of England 1377-1399).

This might be a useful short read too:

http://www.longbow-archers.com/historycrecy.html

Hope that helps - best - jb
 
Hi again Ray - I nearly forgot to add quite a nice little review of The Crecy figures of Wolfgang Freidrich - which you MAY already be aware of.

Here's the link anyway: http://intflatfigures.org/Themes/Bffs-mods/Journals/BFFS J107.pdf

As noted by the author (Jon Redley), painter's are advised that not ALL information given by Wolfgang was correct for the heraldry he used for the figures at the time of Crecy - so there may be discrepancies.

Another link here - may be useful in identifying some of the figures by Wolfgang: ( NB: clicking on the Blue numbers after the Crecy section will help show groups of his figures)

http://www.zinnfigurenfreunde-leipzig.de/her/wf/wf-2.htm

jb
 
One of my favorite threads on the forum!

Those Minoans are great!!!
 
Ray - you've got me interested once again (Drat!).

I had assumed that the Flag was being held by the foot-knight - BUT.................

Could be that Flag ( Gules a crois argent) was being carried by the Knight on horseback, and it is being wrested from his grip by the knight on foot. Thus, the Flag might be inteneded to be the French/Italian Arms of The Count of Savoy - which is the same as that depicted? Some "Savoyards" were present at the Battle. http://www.britishbattles.com/one-hundred-years-war/battle-of-crecy/


Here's yet another link - showing that Flag................

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymon,_Count_of_Savoy

Hmmm.............the plot thickens.......................jb
 
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johnnybach said:
Ray - you've got me interested once again (Drat!).

I had assumed that the Flag was being held by the foot-knight - BUT.................

Could be that Flag ( Gules a crois argent) was being carried by the Knight on horseback, and it is being wrested from his grip by the knight on foot. Thus, the Flag might be inteneded to be the French/Italian Arms of The Count of Savoy - which is the same as that depicted? Some "Savoyards" were present at the Battle. http://www.britishbattles.com/one-hundred-years-war/battle-of-crecy/


Here's yet another link - showing that Flag................

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymon,_Count_of_Savoy

Hmmm.............the plot thickens.......................jb
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Really great work digging into this flag abnd Hearldy John, Thank you, but doesn't this history say they served the English King making both the mounted and the foot knight on the English side? When I originally saw this casting I assumed the banner was being wrested from the rider?
Ray
 
nmrocks said:
Really great work digging into this flag abnd Hearldy John, Thank you, but doesn't this history say they served the English King making both the mounted and the foot knight on the English side? When I originally saw this casting I assumed the banner was being wrested from the rider?
Ray
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I think I have it worked out now Ray - and yes, you are right - the banner is being wrested from the rider by the English Knight, on foot.

The British side did fight on foot that day - whilst the French side (including their allies) fought both on foot (e.g Genoese crossbowmen) and mounted. I think that this little trio of figures has been painted to represent a French mounted Banner-bearer - holding the Standard of the Count of Savoy (Men from Savoy were known to be there on the French side) - and he is being being attacked by Baron de Furnival ( well - that's their Coat of Arms!) - and possibly another English/Welsh man at arms, or archer - armed with a dagger, who is holding the reins of the slipping horse.

After the English/Welsh longbow archers had shot the life out of many of the advancing French Knights, who had ridden down their own crossbowmen, the English Knights, men-at-arms and archers advanced into the melee of downed French knights and slew many that they felt would not warrant much ransom. I think this may be being suggested in this little trio of figures?

I have just dug out my own casting of this little group - so will try and paint mine the same way (when time permits).^&grin

What do you think Ray??? jb
 
johnnybach said:
I think I have it worked out now Ray - and yes, you are right - the banner is being wrested from the rider by the English Knight, on foot.

The British side did fight on foot that day - whilst the French side (including their allies) fought both on foot (e.g Genoese crossbowmen) and mounted. I think that this little trio of figures has been painted to represent a French mounted Banner-bearer - holding the Standard of the Count of Savoy (Men from Savoy were known to be there on the French side) - and he is being being attacked by Baron de Furnival ( well - that's their Coat of Arms!) - and possibly another English/Welsh man at arms, or archer - armed with a dagger, who is holding the reins of the slipping horse.

After the English/Welsh longbow archers had shot the life out of many of the advancing French Knights, who had ridden down their own crossbowmen, the English Knights, men-at-arms and archers advanced into the melee of downed French knights and slew many that they felt would not warrant much ransom. I think this may be being suggested in this little trio of figures?

I have just dug out my own casting of this little group - so will try and paint mine the same way (when time permits).^&grin

What do you think Ray??? jb
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One last theory ...............................Maybe the Flag is not of an English or French Knight - but the Standard of the Bishop of Mentz??????

Must look into this a bit further!!!!! jb
 
Did a bit more digging around last night Ray. Found this site below - which is useful for looking at Flags/Standards etc at Crecy in 1346.

If you scroll down to the French Army Section - and click on the blue writing for section 7 - this contains the Bishop of Metz - and will show his personal Standard - which is quatered. In two quarters - there is our red flag with white cross - which I can only assume was the Flag of Metz ( the place).


http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html

If you look again at the Freidrich site for Crecy and No.16 - you will find this trio - and a very rough translation of the German text - indicates that these figures are described as: "The banner of bishop is defeated by two on the battle-ground by two from other countries"

As the accompanying figure on the same page appears to be said Bishop - I think the story is now clear. The Standard was not one of an English or French knight at all - but that of the Bishop of Mentz. I'll stick with the third Baron - Thomas de Furnville as one of his opponents - due to the unmistakable coat of arms - and probably a British archer who had discarded his longbow and drawn his dagger to help dispatch the Standard bearer.

Phew! jb
 
johnnybach said:
Did a bit more digging around last night Ray. Found this site below - which is useful for looking at Flags/Standards etc at Crecy in 1346.

If you scroll down to the French Army Section - and click on the blue writing for section 7 - this contains the Bishop of Metz - and will show his personal Standard - which is quatered. In two quarters - there is our red flag with white cross - which I can only assume was the Flag of Metz ( the place).


http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html

If you look again at the Freidrich site for Crecy and No.16 - you will find this trio - and a very rough translation of the German text - indicates that these figures are described as: "The banner of bishop is defeated by two on the battle-ground by two from other countries"

As the accompanying figure on the same page appears to be said Bishop - I think the story is now clear. The Standard was not one of an English or French knight at all - but that of the Bishop of Mentz. I'll stick with the third Baron - Thomas de Furnville as one of his opponents - due to the unmistakable coat of arms - and probably a British archer who had discarded his longbow and drawn his dagger to help dispatch the Standard bearer.

Phew! jb
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Great detective work John, think I should start calling you Sherlock after this bit of digging! I followed your lead and sure enough found a coat of arms or flag to match for the Roman Catholic Diocese for the city of Metz. the same banner or flag is also used I believe by the Metz Football team though it seems to have originated from a 1st century Bishop?
Ray


Speaking of Bishops I just finished my latests and by far biggest Russian Paper building project, very nearly kicked my *** did this one. In following your lead, I found the cathedral in Metz that is of simular architecture though different configuration for this cathedral.







 
nmrocks said:
Great detective work John, think I should start calling you Sherlock after this bit of digging! I followed your lead and sure enough found a coat of arms or flag to match for the Roman Catholic Diocese for the city of Metz. the same banner or flag is also used I believe by the Metz Football team though it seems to have originated from a 1st century Bishop?
Ray


Speaking of Bishops I just finished my latests and by far biggest Russian Paper building project, very nearly kicked my *** did this one. In following your lead, I found the cathedral in Metz that is of simular architecture though different configuration for this cathedral.

Love the Cathedral Ray - excellent work.

Do you have "The Bishop of Mentz" figure from the Friedrich set??? I have a vested interest, of course, as I have the complete set of castings of the Battle of Crecy. Here he is below as a mounted figure - along with the trio that you already have as a painted version.

I will be starting some of them off quite soon, hopefully. jb





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Very nice JB and thank you for posting, you know my collection better than I do, didn't make the connection between the Bishops figure and this group.





here arranged in front of the cathederal



and here's the inside of the cathederal





 
Only too pleased to help Ray - as the original spur for me to get hold of a set came from one of your posts, a while back. Wolfgang Friedrich's engraving is just fabulous - and I was very pleased to have been able to get hold of them ( as unpainted castings).

I regard it as all part of the fun - to be able to research who is who - and decide for myself how I'm going to tackle painting them. Your posts certainly help greatly - and I collect any pics of them and store them in an electronic file - for possible future use.

I now have a couple of choices for the Knight attacking The Bishop of Mentz's banner Bearer - or I can maybe choose someone else.

We shall see. Thanks again for your input - jb
 
johnnybach said:
Only too pleased to help Ray - as the original spur for me to get hold of a set came from one of your posts, a while back. Wolfgang Friedrich's engraving is just fabulous - and I was very pleased to have been able to get hold of them ( as unpainted castings).

I regard it as all part of the fun - to be able to research who is who - and decide for myself how I'm going to tackle painting them. Your posts certainly help greatly - and I collect any pics of them and store them in an electronic file - for possible future use.

I now have a couple of choices for the Knight attacking The Bishop of Mentz's banner Bearer - or I can maybe choose someone else.

We shall see. Thanks again for your input - jb
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I really enjoy our conversations JB. Your research is particularly good. really looking forward to your work on this project, you really do a great job with the whole flat genre, and Yes, it is always fun!


a another group of Knights/ Crusaders go under the glass and a redo of those Minoans



 
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