New Releases for December 2019 - Boxer Rebellion (3 Viewers)

The Military Workshop · Dec 24, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

I have been trying to stay out of this LAH thread.

You know what I find offensive ? Somebody comparing unarmed women and children and religious people being massacred to Custer at Little Big Horn. I must try that line in a LAH thread and see the reaction. But hey those Christians being slaughtered in Peking should consider themselves lucky they weren't slaughtered by Nazis 40 years later. Wonder if it would be different if they were not Christians but another religious group ? Would that make their suffering more comparable to what happened in WW2 ?

i mean seriously it is like a competition as to who suffered more and the Christians in Peking did not suffer enough or have enough people killed so let's make it all about WW2 events.

How about saving it for the next LAH thread as I think we well and truly have got the point you are trying to make.

The Breaker · Dec 24, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

jomartvr said:
Hi Jack,

The slaughter of civilians is not particularly appealing to me.

Are there any Royal Marines in the pipeline?

Benjamin

I agree, Royal Marines would've been my choice too.

Terp152 · Dec 24, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

tdubel said:
Chris,
It certainly is arguably in bad taste, that said, a private enterprise can make/depict what they want, I just choose not to buy it and quite frankly we would all be better off ignoring it, I think if you want to hit back at this release, by not buying it is a good way to do so. Retailers can choose whether to carry it or not and of course that will depend on sales. I don't see real high sales on this item in the US, UK or Australia IMO.

However, I don't advocate censoring it either, nothing good ever comes of that.
TD

Hi Tom, I was not referring to making/releasing the figs but the historical massacre and Brad's cavalier statement. My post may not have been clear on that. Chris

tdubel · Dec 24, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

Terp152 said:
Hi Tom, I was not referring to making/releasing the figs but the historical massacre and Brad's cavalier statement. My post may not have been clear on that. Chris

No worries, I understand that and see your point, it is quite a fair one for sure.

TD

tdubel · Dec 24, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

The Military Workshop said:
I have been trying to stay out of this LAH thread.

You know what I find offensive ? Somebody comparing unarmed women and children and religious people being massacred to Custer at Little Big Horn. I must try that line in a LAH thread and see the reaction. But hey those Christians being slaughtered in Peking should consider themselves lucky they weren't slaughtered by Nazis 40 years later.
Wonder if it would be different if they were not Christians but another religious group ?
Would that make their suffering more comparable to what happened in WW2 ?

i mean seriously it is like a competition as to who suffered more and the Christians in Peking did not suffer enough or have enough people killed so let's make it all about WW2 events.

How about saving it for the next LAH thread as I think we well and truly have got the point you are trying to make.

By no means do I find it a competition. What I find ludicrous is saying Marching Black shirts in all their glory and symbolism b/c that is what they are is any less whatever. Its a simple point, so let me put a period on it for the thread.

By the way, please explain your comment about Christians, since I am one and I am trying to figure that out - Germans killed plenty of Christians too.
Wonder if it would be different if they were not Christians but another religious group ?

TD

OzDigger · Dec 25, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

tdubel said:
By no means do I find it a competition. What I find ludicrous is saying Marching Black shirts in all their glory and symbolism b/c that is what they are is any less whatever. Its a simple point, so let me put a period on it for the thread.

By the way, please explain your comment about Christians, since I am one and I am trying to figure that out - Germans killed plenty of Christians too.
Wonder if it would be different if they were not Christians but another religious group ?

TD

Although he posted after your comment I believe Brett's comments were directed at another forum member.

As for your last comment that you listed in bold. I know I would post the same objections if the Woman and Child depicted Were from Another Religious group, or Race for that matter, noting the boy is Chinese. If they were armed, as Women and Children sometimes are in conflicts, I may have a different opinion, but they weren't.

That said, I wouldn't judge or reprimand anyone that purchased the sets, they're just not for me. Just wondering why produce something like that initially, and then advertise the new range at this time of year, with a Christmas Greeting to top it off. A bit of a W T F moment for me, and several other forum members apparently.

Regarding the ongoing posts by you and others about comparisons with the LAH range including some comments about who collects LAH and maybe you're a Hypocrite or it's Payback time or some other random opinion. Personally I can't recall who collects what these days, does it really matter in this discussion? Really, does it?

As for me, I currently have 30 display shelves in my converted garage, which I call my War Room, no fighting allowed. Six shelves have Waffen SS, mostly Collectors Showcase Tanks etc with mainly K & C Camo Figures. One display has the K & C Berhof and the K & C Headquarters with their BMW Motorcycle and Command car plus Hitler and other assorted baddies. The remaining 23 shelves have Australian troops, their opponents include Turks, Japanese, Afrika Korps and Vietcong.

I'm all for the ongoing promotion of Diversity, but are we becoming so Diverse these days that we can't see past our own Biased beliefs, just a little bit.

TeamMiniatures · Dec 25, 2019

I apologized to you all for this Releases

First of all, I must sincerely apologize to all collectors, including all Christians.
Our real intention is to show the real history, but because we didn't have a careful understanding of these western festivals and beliefs, we don't think about it more because we don't know the relevant knowledge.
Hope to be able to get you all forgive.
It can be said that I didn't heard that there was "Christmas" until I was 20 years old. Maybe you think it is very absurd, but it is not strange that in China. there are only a few people over 60 who can know about western festivals. Maybe this is the difference between Chinese and Western culture.
In order to express my sincere apology to you, I have made modified on our web page, you could go and check it out.
In the following time, we will launch these new products in turn:
1)British Royal Marine Light Infantry
2)Italian Bersaglieri
3)French Marine Infantry and French Navy
4)Boer Wars 1898--1902
5)The Franco-Prussian war 1870-1871
I hope you can put forward some opinions and opinions. If there is any problem, we will correct it in time.
Like all of you, I pursue world peace and say "no" to war.
I hope you will accept my apology!

Merry Christmas!

TM Jack

Horus · Dec 25, 2019

TM Jack

Though the Nun and child sets may not be popular I'm sure your other Boxer figures shown will still be.

Other than Chinese New Year, I for one do not know other Chinese festival days. But am aware of K&C's Hong Kong office being shut during various times during the year and suspect it's like that for most Westerners.
It's just a lack of knowledge of each others culture that leads to these unfortunate errors.

Best Wishes

Steve

cantinetozzo · Dec 25, 2019

No disrespect intended towards who lost some relatives in WWII due to the Nazi regime, but i find these figures (the act portrayed, not the figures in themselves) a little disturbing. It is different to portray marching SS (i know what they did) or portray SS in a Concentration Camp (i can't really imagine some producer so dumb to portray concentration camps prisoners being killed!). Every soldier of every army did wrong at some time in the past. Don't want to point to who did what, it's useless in this argument, you just have to know history. If everyone should be offended by toy soldiers then this hobby couldn't exist anymore. But it's different here, it's not the figures that portray , it's the ACT. If the boxers figures, who were terrorists not patriots (just like AL Qaeda or ISIS) , took some prisoners , not hinting what could be done of these prisoners , all could be ok. But they are killing defenseless figures. I find it a bit disturbing, as i'd find disturbing a figure of the beheading f the Nanking massacre, or the shooting of a vietcong prisoner by the famous south viet colonel (who in my opinion was not justified, but the story is not as the media told at the time). I repeat, it's the act, the border on which the portrayal must stop.

cantinetozzo · Dec 25, 2019

Re: I apologized to you all for this Releases

Thanks for your message, your products are nonetheless very good and i'm looking forward to Bersaglieri, Boers and Franco Prussian War...very good choice!!!

TeamMiniatures said:
First of all, I must sincerely apologize to all collectors, including all Christians.
Our real intention is to show the real history, but because we didn't have a careful understanding of these western festivals and beliefs, we don't think about it more because we don't know the relevant knowledge.
Hope to be able to get you all forgive.
It can be said that I didn't heard that there was "Christmas" until I was 20 years old. Maybe you think it is very absurd, but it is not strange that in China. there are only a few people over 60 who can know about western festivals. Maybe this is the difference between Chinese and Western culture.
In order to express my sincere apology to you, I have made modified on our web page, you could go and check it out.
In the following time, we will launch these new products in turn:
1)British Royal Marine Light Infantry
2)Italian Bersaglieri
3)French Marine Infantry and French Navy
4)Boer Wars 1898--1902
5)The Franco-Prussian war 1870-1871
I hope you can put forward some opinions and opinions. If there is any problem, we will correct it in time.
Like all of you, I pursue world peace and say "no" to war.
I hope you will accept my apology!

Merry Christmas!

TM Jack

The Military Workshop · Dec 25, 2019

I think thanks are in order to Rose and Jack for their quick response in dealing with this issue.

I first saw this thread and received their dealer message late on Saturday night. I found the timing and original thread title inappropriate and did not like the 4 pairs. Plus as a dealer I did not think the 4 pairs involving civilians / Christians were going to be popular with those already collecting the series. This was quickly confirmed by feedback from some of those collectors one of whom said he might buy two of the pairs just to get the Boxer figures. Basically most people would prefer to have Boxers v infantry than have them killing unarmed people religious or not. I sent some feedback to TM which they saw Monday morning. I know they also got feedback from Julie our host.

By Tuesday evening they have changed the pairs into singles, re-photographed and updated item codes and their web page. This gives the collector the choice to buy the civilians or not.

From the start I did not think they realised these figures would cause any problems and certainly did not intend to cause any offence by the subject matter or timing. They were portraying what happened in 1900 and Jack covers this in his post.

The portrayal of unarmed civilians of any kind being killed by soldiers is not one I personally like and as a dealer I think most collectors would prefer not to collect such figures. A choice of 15 Boxers fighting Allied infantry is much more preferable.

Anyway thanks to TM for their quick response.

The Military Workshop · Dec 25, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

tdubel said:
By no means do I find it a competition. What I find ludicrous is saying Marching Black shirts in all their glory and symbolism b/c that is what they are is any less whatever. Its a simple point, so let me put a period on it for the thread.

By the way, please explain your comment about Christians, since I am one and I am trying to figure that out - Germans killed plenty of Christians too.
Wonder if it would be different if they were not Christians but another religious group ?

TD

Tom,
i recall you previously, during LAH discussions, making a point of saying you were Jewish by marriage. My step son was originally Catholic but married a Muslim and had to convert to do so. I don't think he is particularly religious but I know he is no longer Catholic in his mind and does observe some aspects of the Muslim religion. I am not sure of the technical aspects when you marry a female Jew but my limited understanding is that you can not be Christian and Jewish at the same time. However your religious beliefs are not the issue. For the record I am not religious.

I am not going to get into a multi post exchange but quite frankly I found your exchange with Alex the Great a ridiculous debate. You actually indicated he was defending the third Reich because he thought depicting a Boxer killing a nun was worse than a black Nazi marching figure. How dare he express such an opinion. Well guess what, I agree with him, taken in isolation. No amount of explaining by him would satisfy you and you kept going. However it is possible to think that whilst also knowing the Nazis caused far more atrocities against far more people than the Boxers. Not only that but Alex had pointed out he is not the type to buy LAH figures.

There were other aspects to comments by others in this thread I also did not like but I think my first post sums it up enough for you and others to get the drift of my thoughts. This was not a LAH discussion thread but it quickly became one.

The Breaker · Dec 25, 2019

Re: I apologized to you all for this Releases

TeamMiniatures said:
First of all, I must sincerely apologize to all collectors, including all Christians.
Our real intention is to show the real history, but because we didn't have a careful understanding of these western festivals and beliefs, we don't think about it more because we don't know the relevant knowledge.
Hope to be able to get you all forgive.
It can be said that I didn't heard that there was "Christmas" until I was 20 years old. Maybe you think it is very absurd, but it is not strange that in China. there are only a few people over 60 who can know about western festivals. Maybe this is the difference between Chinese and Western culture.
In order to express my sincere apology to you, I have made modified on our web page, you could go and check it out.
In the following time, we will launch these new products in turn:
1)British Royal Marine Light Infantry
2)Italian Bersaglieri
3)French Marine Infantry and French Navy
4)Boer Wars 1898--1902
5)The Franco-Prussian war 1870-1871
I hope you can put forward some opinions and opinions. If there is any problem, we will correct it in time.
Like all of you, I pursue world peace and say "no" to war.

I hope you will accept my apology!

Merry Christmas!

TM Jack

The list of future products looks great. I am really looking forward to the Boer War line in particular.

Spanish soldier · Dec 25, 2019

In all conflicts there are civilian deaths. Now we are not going to invent gunpowder

Napoleon1er · Dec 25, 2019

Re: New Releases for December 2019 - Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians

The Military Workshop said:
I have been trying to stay out of this LAH thread.

You know what I find offensive ? Somebody comparing unarmed women and children and religious people being massacred to Custer at Little Big Horn. I must try that line in a LAH thread and see the reaction. But hey those Christians being slaughtered in Peking should consider themselves lucky they weren't slaughtered by Nazis 40 years later. Wonder if it would be different if they were not Christians but another religious group ? Would that make their suffering more comparable to what happened in WW2 ?

i mean seriously it is like a competition as to who suffered more and the Christians in Peking did not suffer enough or have enough people killed so let's make it all about WW2 events.

How about saving it for the next LAH thread as I think we well and truly have got the point you are trying to make.

This is incredibly offensive and borderline antisemitic.

desk11desk12 · Dec 25, 2019

You can't buy this amount of publicity and attention...Yeah, some of it is negative attention but the longer this thread lives, the more exposure Team Miniatures gets from collectors.

IMO, these are great looking figures announced during the wrong season. As mentioned before, LAH figures are big sellers; . I choose not to collect them.

However, heaven help us, if we see the Holocaust victim disembarking from freight cars into a camp. I think that's where I draw the line. Just my opinion.

Carlos

jomartvr · Dec 25, 2019

TM Jack

Thanks for the Royal Marines and the Franco-Prussian War.

Best wishes,
Benjamin

tdubel · Dec 25, 2019

Tired of quoting messages so I will just direct this to the Australian posts as well as general. I am Christian by birth, Jewish by marriage. Celebrate both cultures without issue.

LAH happened In What is historically considered modern day society. Marching, fighting, death camp, etc are generally deemed offensive in any situation by any reasonable person I have ever encountered. There is generally zero debate as to the offensiveness of the nazi regime. That is point 1 and I find it incredible that there is any comparison that marching ss guys are better than slaughtering nuns. They are all offensive and it is ludicrous to compare. I just find that idiotic from the get go and said so.

2nd point I don’t believe in censorship in any way and that is why the myriad of posts as to look in the mirror pot calling kettle etc. point is you can’t have it both ways. End of day as I have always said buy what you like ,it is your money and your display and we all have our own values. I just don’t put up with high horse bs that is in numerous posts on this thread nor the defense of any atrocity in history, you will notice no where in any of my thoughts is intent to defend boxers, romans, nazis etc. they are historical facts, if you choose to buy them, your choice not mine and no judgement on that at all.

for whatever reason there seems to be a need to defend lah anytime the subject arises, I will never understand from any viewpoint why it is just not universal distaste.

If if any more clarity is required as to my stance, thoughts, collection or religion, do let me know, that said I am pretty black and white in my opinion so it should be somewhat clear.

OzDigger · Dec 25, 2019

tdubel said:
Tired of quoting messages so I will just direct this to the Australian posts as well as general. I am Christian by birth, Jewish by marriage. Celebrate both cultures without issue.

LAH happened In What is historically considered modern day society. Marching, fighting, death camp, etc are generally deemed offensive in any situation by any reasonable person I have ever encountered. There is generally zero debate as to the offensiveness of the nazi regime. That is point 1 and I find it incredible that there is any comparison that marching ss guys are better than slaughtering nuns. They are all offensive and it is ludicrous to compare. I just find that idiotic from the get go and said so.

2nd point I don’t believe in censorship in any way and that is why the myriad of posts as to look in the mirror pot calling kettle etc. point is you can’t have it both ways. End of day as I have always said buy what you like ,it is your money and your display and we all have our own values. I just don’t put up with high horse bs that is in numerous posts on this thread nor the defense of any atrocity in history, you will notice no where in any of my thoughts is intent to defend boxers, romans, nazis etc. they are historical facts, if you choose to buy them, your choice not mine and no judgement on that at all.

for whatever reason there seems to be a need to defend lah anytime the subject arises, I will never understand from any viewpoint why it is just not universal distaste.

If if any more clarity is required as to my stance, thoughts, collection or religion, do let me know, that said I am pretty black and white in my opinion so it should be somewhat clear.

1st Point
No one is attempting to defend the offensiveness of the Nazi regime. It's all about What some of the Figures are doing, Not who's Side they are on, or How that Side is viewed in History.

2nd Point.
I agree with you about any Official type of Censorship. How could that work in this industry, and who's going to decide on what is offensive or not.

For example clearly there's some differences in opinion about some of the Boxer related sets discussed here. I didn't expect there would be any opposition, I thought it was straight forward. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as Collectors come from a wide variety of Countries, Religions and Cultures. Collectors are entitled to their Own Opinion on what They find Offensive.

The Military Workshop · Dec 25, 2019

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Now that I am being accused of being "incredibly offensive and borderline anti-Semitic" I have to respond. [/FONT]