NFL Season 2016-17 (2 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

If memory serves me correctly, that was not his last game with the Niners because he was the QB when the Giants beat them in the 1990-1991 NFC conference title game, 15-13 or 13-12, I forget which, when Roger Craig fumbled the ball. I think it was Jim Burt who hit him and knocked him out of the game you're referring to. I'm pretty sure the final was 49-3. I also remember it as being a very cold game in the Meadowlands.

I'm sure you're right that Brady's stats are better than Brady's but it was also a different era so they're hard to compare. At any rate, for me it's Montana although I understand why you would pick Brady.

 

[Hector of Troy]

I agree, not all QB's played in the same era, so I think it was hard to compare.Back in the 70's QB's took more of a beating, there was not much protection for QB's like they have now. I remember Turkey Jones from the Browns just planting Bradshaw into the ground at Cleveland one Sunday. The receivers back then took a beating ,they couldn't run as free in the secondary as they do today. You had to be nervous if you had a Tatum, Atkinson or a Mell Blunt lurking*around. Or a receiver cutting underneath when you had Lambert dropping back in cover. Plus they didn't throw as much as they do now, so they wouldn't have the numbers* they have today. Most teams ran first, threw second. As a Steeler fan in the*70's* I*was nervous when we would *play against the Snake Stabler* in the AFC championships ,*and Staubach when we played them in the Super Bowls.They were such tremendous QB's ,they would beat you with their arm and legs, with their scramble ability. I wonder what kind of numbers they would put up in todays NFL. Also how many more Super Bowls they would of won had not the Steelers been that good in the 70's. Back here in Pittsburgh I'm still more of a Bradshaw fan than Ben, although most of the media today tend to give the edge to*Ben. Most of the media are young and tend to whats
*going on now ,not back then. They look at*yardage stats of today. Comparing* the 70's and 80's to today is like apples and oranges. They ran more back then, so of course you wouldn't have the passing yards QB's have today.**Bradshaw is undefeated in Super Bowls 4-0 and not many can claim that, except for a guy I played baseball against in*High School named Montana. I feel you have to rate the QB's in the Era that they played in. I was a teenager in the 70's , we had season tickets so I saw 90% of the Home games so that time period was pretty vivid to me. That's just my 2 cents.

 

[Louis Badolato]

For me, in the Super Bowl era (I think pre-Super Bowl era, its between Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham, I lean towards Graham, whose Browns, in the ten years he was in the league, went to 9 Championship games and won 7 titles), its between Brady and Montana, with no clear winner.

On the plus side for Brady, he won 6 AFC Championships and 4 Super Bowls, only losing two close games on last minute scores, and his statistics, in this passer friendly era, are better than Montana's, despite the fact that for most of his career, Montana played with Jerry Rice, the greatest receiver of all time, while Brady only had Randy Moss for a couple of seasons, and Rob Gronkowski, who has been injured almost every season.

On the plus side for Montana, he played in a far more difficult era for QB's, against, lets face it, far less watered down competition. He had to play year in year out against the Walter Peyton/Mike Singletary Bears (1 title), the Lawrence Taylor/Harry Carson Giants (2 titles), the Joe Theisman/Hogs Redskins (3 titles), as well as the Howie Long/Marcus Allen Raiders (1 title) and the Ken Anderson/Boomer Esiason Bengals (who lost two close SB's to the 49ers). The defensive backs were allowed to keep their hands on the receivers until the ball was in the air, middle linebackers took the heads off receivers who dared try to run a slant or crossing pattern, and pass rushers were allowed to hit the QB as hard as they want, where ever they wanted, including on the helmet.

If Brady's teams played in the 1980's under those rules, they almost certainly would not have won 6 AFC championships and 4 Super Bowls, but they would have won some. If Montana's teams played today, they almost certainly would dominate even more than they did in the 1980's for a season or two, but they would lose players to free agency under today's salary cap, and who knows how well they would replace them?

For me, they are pretty much 1 and 1a, in whichever order you prefer.

 

[Louis Badolato]

If memory serves me correctly, that was not his last game with the Niners because he was the QB when the Giants beat them in the 1990-1991 NFC conference title game, 15-13 or 13-12, I forget which, when Roger Craig fumbled the ball. I think it was Jim Burt who hit him and knocked him out of the game you're referring to. I'm pretty sure the final was 49-3. I also remember it as being a very cold game in the Meadowlands.

I'm sure you're right that Brady's stats are better than Brady's but it was also a different era so they're hard to compare. At any rate, for me it's Montana although I understand why you would pick Brady.

You are right about the game, wrong about the player, Jim Burt played nose tackle for the 49ers in that game, the player who knocked Brady out was DE Leonard Marshall. The Giants were trailing 13-12 in the 4th Quarter in the NFC Championship Game in San Francisco. Montana dropped back to pass, and was scrambling to his right, when he pulled up to avoid Lawrence Taylor, who was pushed past him by the right tackle and right guard. As he pulled up, he was hit squarely in the back by the helmet of Leonard Marshall, who had been knocked down twice on the play, but kept coming. The ball popped up in the air, but was recovered by a 49er. Joe Montana was knocked unconscious, and broke his throwing hand. He was replaced in the game by Steve Young, who handed the ball off to Roger Craig. Craig run into the line, was hit, fumbled, and LT recovered. The resulting drive (aided by a great catch by TE Mark Bavaro, who caught a Jeff Hostetler pass heading out of bounds, but managed to stay in bounds long enough to stretch for a first down on a 3rd and 8), ended in a last second field goal by PK Matt Bahr, with the Giants winning 15-13.

 

[jazzeum]

That was the later game but in 1987 (I just checked the reports of the game) the Giants beat them 49-3 at Giants Stadium and Burt knocked Montana out of the game.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/05/s...49ers-and-on-to-nfc-final.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Louis Badolato]

That was the later game but in 1987 (I just checked the reports of the game) the Giants beat them 49-3 at Giants Stadium and Burt knocked Montana out of the game.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/05/s...49ers-and-on-to-nfc-final.html?pagewanted=all

Yes, I remember that play as well. Joe Montana joked about it on Saturday Night Live the following Saturday, doing a skit where he kept forgetting what he had just talked about. But I thought the question was whether Montana was knocked out of the last game he played as a 49er, which he was, in the 1989/1990 NFC Championship Game. That off season, he was traded to the Kansas City Chiefs.

 

[Panzer ace]

That was the later game but in 1987 (I just checked the reports of the game) the Giants beat them 49-3 at Giants Stadium and Burt knocked Montana out of the game.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/05/s...49ers-and-on-to-nfc-final.html?pagewanted=all

I will never forget watching that game, the late great Pat Summerall was calling the game and when he asked for a report on Montana's condition he simply stated that Montana says "everything hurts".

 

[Louis Badolato]

The 1987 game Brad is referring to was an NFC Divisional Round playoff game at Giants Stadium. On the 49er's first offensive play from scrimmage, Montana went deep to Jerry Rice, who dropped a sure touchdown pass. The game was all Giants after that. Both Burt's hit in this game, and Marshall's hit in the 1990 NFC Championship would have drawn flags and resulted in fines today.

 

[Panzer ace]

The 1987 game Brad is referring to was an NFC Divisional Round playoff game at Giants Stadium. On the 49er's first offensive play from scrimmage, Montana went deep to Jerry Rice, who dropped a sure touchdown pass. The game was all Giants after that. Both Burt's hit in this game, and Marshall's hit in the 1990 NFC Championship would have drawn flags and resulted in fines today.

Louis:

Your last sentence is among one of many reasons why I do not compare players from different eras.

I feel that there are greats from each time frame, but as the game as evolved (some would say devolved) so has what is measured and how it is measured etc.

-Jason

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis:

Your last sentence is among one of many reasons why I do not compare players from different eras.

I feel that there are greats from each time frame, but as the game as evolved (some would say devolved) so has what is measured and how it is measured etc.

-Jason

Jason,

I completely agree that it is often counterproductive to compare players from different eras. However, the "whose the greatest [fill in the blank] of all time" discussion will never go away, so I compromise, and break down pro-football unto two eras, the pre-Super Bowl era and the Super Bowl era. You are absolutely correct that the rule changes make comparing statistics from decade to decade a meaningless exercise, so I tend to try to compare relative dominance within your era, and level of competition within an era.

To me the 1980's was the golden age of the NFL. Many of what I consider the all time best players (Lawrence Taylor, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Walter Peyton, Bruce Smith, Reggie White), coaches (Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcels, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Bill Belichick [Giants Defensive Coordinator]), and most iconic teams (49ers 4 time champions, Redskins 3 times Champions, Giants 2 times Champions, 15-1 Bears championship team) played in the 80's, and I thought they had the rules just right. I like my football violent and dominated by defense, but I also like enough scoring to make it interesting. As a result, I tend to rate all other players or teams by how they would do against the competition from the 80's, and how they would hold up under 80's rules. I try to imagine the Cowboys or Patriots offense of today playing the 85 Bears or 86 Giants defense (mentally equalizing the size and athleticism of the players). Its all conjecture, but its fun.

 

[tdubel]

Jason,

I completely agree that it is often counterproductive to compare players from different eras. However, the "whose the greatest [fill in the blank] of all time" discussion will never go away, so I compromise, and break down pro-football unto two eras, the pre-Super Bowl era and the Super Bowl era. You are absolutely correct that the rule changes make comparing statistics from decade to decade a meaningless exercise, so I tend to try to compare relative dominance within your era, and level of competition within an era.

To me the 1980's was the golden age of the NFL. Many of what I consider the all time best players (Lawrence Taylor, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Walter Peyton, Bruce Smith, Reggie White), coaches (Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcels, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Bill Belichick [Giants Defensive Coordinator]), and most iconic teams (49ers 4 time champions, Redskins 3 times Champions, Giants 2 times Champions, 15-1 Bears championship team) played in the 80's, and I thought they had the rules just right. I like my football violent and dominated by defense, but I also like enough scoring to make it interesting. As a result, I tend to rate all other players or teams by how they would do against the competition from the 80's, and how they would hold up under 80's rules. I try to imagine the Cowboys or Patriots offense of today playing the 85 Bears or 86 Giants defense (mentally equalizing the size and athleticism of the players). Its all conjecture, but its fun.

80s are great, 70s are better as a Steeler lifer. Nothing for me will ever top the Steel Curtain and Bradshaw and his offense, I could watch a game from that era any time, any place, any day!

TD

 

[hotel3alpha]

Gents,

I'll root for Plunkett, Montana, Elway, and hell raising Ken Stabler Any Given Sunday over Dab-boy Newton, Sicko Vick, Tony "Choke" Mo and what his face...uh...Colin "Commie" Kapernick.

Just saying...

John from Texas

 

[lancer]

Personally, I'll take the boys from the 60's; Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton, Gabriel, and that ole' Redskin, Sonny Jurgensen. Might be able to add a couple of other good players like Brown, Sayers, Taylor, Kelly, Crow, Berry, Shofner, Taylor, and Collins. And the defense had such legends as Butkus, Nitschke, Nobis, Boyd, Wilson, and the Fearsome Foursome. The 60's were the Golden Age of the NFL and there started the incredible rise in popularity that pushed football into the forefront of US sports. -- Al

 

[Louis Badolato]

Well, congratulations to Michael and John on your Cowboys getting the number one cede. Bad Eli showed up in Philly, and the game was over mid way through the second quarter with them down 21-3. I knew this offense couldn't come all the way back down 18 points. Well, now I have to hope one of 4 other teams loses Sunday, or wait until next week for another tough game on the road to try to clinch.

 

[theBaron]

Well, congratulations to Michael and John on your Cowboys getting the number one cede. Bad Eli showed up in Philly, and the game was over mid way through the second quarter with them down 21-3. I knew this offense couldn't come all the way back down 18 points. Well, now I have to hope one of 4 other teams loses Sunday, or wait until next week for another tough game on the road to try to clinch.

You're right, and wrong, Louis. Right, when you said the other day that when the Eagles play the Giants, we can throw the season out the window. Mike Quick said the same thing last night during the radio broadcast. But I must disagree that the game was over in the 2nd quarter. When Malcolm Jenkins got that interception and the Eagles scored their second touchdown, I was glad, but only cautiously optimistic, because there was still a lot of football to play. And the Giants clawed their way back, and it had to come down to their last set of downs, driving into the range of a long touchdown pass, with 14 seconds to go, and an interception. An end worthy of the best Hollywood scriptwriter. But that goes back to the first point--when the Eagles play the Giants, it's always a nail-biter, always exciting, always an agita-inducing event

Now, we see what happens next week. Eagles-Cowboys games are always exciting, too.

An interesting stat about both teams, too, the week after a win or a loss. The Eagles have a win-loss percentage of .500 after a win and .333 after a loss. The Giants have a win-loss percentage of .727 after a win and .500 after a loss.

Prost!
Brad

 

[mikemiller1955]

Louis...I watched that game just like all Cowboy fans probably did...that first drive...followed by the pick six...really put them in a bad spot...Philly's 3rd TD really surprised me...but NY's defense finally settled in and gave them a chance...forgetting the 3 Interceptions...I think what hurt you most were the several defensive penalties on roughing...the one where Wentz surrendered himself and went into a slide was a bad call...your guy let up and it was not a roughing call...that seemed like the dagger to me...regardless...don't fear...the Giants will make the playoffs...probably before they even play again...

I found this scenario for them to advance on ESPN...they only way you miss the playoffs is if all of this happens...very doubtful...so I think you're pretty safe...I hope Dallas does not rest players and beats Detroit Monday...

This week

1. The Green Bay Packers beat the Minnesota Vikings on Saturday.

2. The Atlanta Falcons win at the Carolina Panthers on Saturday.

3. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers win at the New Orleans Saints on Saturday.

4. The Detroit Lions win at the Dallas Cowboys on Monday.

Next week

5. The Giants lose to the Washington Redskins.

6. The Packers win at Detroit.

7. The Falcons beat the Saints.

8. The Buccaneers beat the Panthers.

 

[theBaron]

I won't say never, but I don't think the Lions beat the Cowboys.

 

[mikemiller1955]

Brad...I hope you're right...but if we have learned anything about the NFL...anybody can lay an egg...and the expression..."one any given Sunday"...will always apply...Dallas may sit starters and let everyone heal up some...

 

[jazzeum]

The Cowboys have clinched home field in the playoffs so the Lions game is basically inconsequential for them.

 

[Warrior]

...that first drive...followed by the pick six...really put them in a bad spot...Philly's 3rd TD really surprised me...but NY's defense finally settled in and gave them a chance...forgetting the 3 Interceptions...I think what hurt you most were the several defensive penalties on roughing...the one where Wentz surrendered himself and went into a slide was a bad call...your guy let up and it was not a roughing call..............

The roughing the passer call when he went into a slide was an awful call, the one where the defender wrapped up the QB and slammed him to the ground was iffy at best. Two bad calls IMO.

All three INT's were bad, he floated two of those balls up there, the PIC SIX was just awful, pressure from the backside, he stepped up in the pocket and tried to jam it in between the defender and the receiver, just a brutal throw.

Eli, more than any other QB, gets happy feet with pressure, that's the key to throwing him off his game.

The Giants entire offense is slant to OBJ, post route to OBJ, seam route to OBJ, fly pattern to OBJ..............on two or three occasions, he went deep, was winded, lollygagged it back to the LOS, the Giants had to wait on him and then the next play with him gassed was a dumpster fire each time.

Again, just double team, play 2 safeties high to keep him in front of them and bingo, you shut down the Giants.........................how many times this year have they scored less than 21 points.........................