Pricing, where's your limit?? (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

Now Brett everyone knows a winter coat costs more than a summer one!!! I do agree that it has been an interesting topic and one which by the number of responses and views shows that collectors are concerned about the costs and future costs in the hobby.
Mitch

Has been an interesting thread.

Sammy will no doubt be pleased to see the new FL Russians released today. At $65 each.

 

[Mitch]

I don't think the comments like '' K&C camp'' and act with ''dignity'' are really relevant or needed. All the companies are linked because we have such small numbers (I would guess) of staunch collectors who buy only from one company. I certainly thought it was needed to be in this section all along but, that was nothing to do with protecting K&C or, a lack of dignity. Most who post here are eclectic collectors in nature and have items from many companies. The mix and match or whatever the label is. To isolate one company and allude to higher prices and possible price limits and, as the conversation went discuss their price rises in isolation in a small hobby was unfair. Its not about protecting one company over another its just common sense that this topic would expand into other areas which, it did and, become a general discussion. Therefore, in previous times where it would have ended up in a slanging match with some members saying mine is better than yours or, mine is more expensive so its better??? Its stayed as Sammy said with no deletions and a interesting topic where on the whole the ''guff'' stayed away.

Similar to the historical topics just discussed if you take out a character or event and discuss the minutia without enclosing all the information relevant then we get a slanted topic.
Mitch

“Fairer topic in the general discussion section?”

Since when is anything in life fair? This is a discussion about business and the industry, not a PTA meeting. Do all of the devout K&C collectors honestly believe that K&C is not at the top of the industry?

Honestly, I would have expected the K&C camp to handle this topic with a little more dignity. Instead all we see is constant complaining about this topic and how it is somehow unfair to K&C.

I hate to bring this up. But, if a company doesn’t know how to carry the target on its back that inevitably comes from being out front, then it isn't going to stay there for very long.

Obviously this discussion regarding pricing is an issue between K&C and their disaffected customers who believe that $44 per foot figure is a bit on the high side. These same individuals have elected to purchase elsewhere due to their view that the rising price point is on the verge of getting out of control.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that K&C, CS and Britain’s are very similar companies and generally compete for the same target market.

Yes there are other more expensive producers (i.e. First Legion and St. Petersburg), but they are clearly going after a different (and smaller) target market. The real question that none of the devout K&C crowd wants to acknowledge is whether or not a $14-16 disparity between CS/Britain’s and K&C is really a “fair” difference.

I think we can all acknowledge that throughout the company's existence, K&C has more consistently produced superior products and has done a better job of providing the type of customer service that their collectors desire. For this they deserve a better margin. But, again the issue is whether or not these factors are worth $14-16 more. I suppose the market will ultimately have the final say.

Shane

 

[The Military Workshop]

Hi Brett the first legion figures are a lot of money. You don't stock them . Is this the reason for this reply. Chris.^&confuse

Hi Brett the first legion figures are a lot of money. You don't stock them . Is this the reason for this reply. Chris.^&confuse

Chris,

Yes it is true FL figures a lot of money and yes it is true I do not stock FL. However here is my view on this thread.

Sammy started the thread but as he indicated he only buys occasional K&C ACW figures for his son. Any such figures have been $32 for years as there have been no new releases for a while (cheapest FL ACW figure is $55). From the time those figures have been $32 until now FL WWII figures have increased in price and clearly represent the great bulk of his purchases. Why would he be concerned about peoples thoughts about K&C prices ?

Personally I think he was bored and knew this thread would create some "interest" as he has seen similar threads many times and knows they always get a reaction. In fact an hour later he revived a 2 1/2 year old thread that had had no replies at all (showing a K&C Gunther Prien figure compared to what appears to be a handpainted Prien model) and said "and yea I'm that bored". I know because I replied to his two posts in that thread.

As has been mentioned anybody can post wherever they like on this forum. However I wonder what the reaction would have been if Rob had been currently posting and started a similar thread in FL area (see also a comment I am about to make in reply to Mitch).

Now dont get me wrong there are clearly a number of people in this thread who have issues with K&C pricing and as a dealer of K&C that concerns me as I am sure it does K&C.

If you look through this thread you will see comments about FL pricing (trucks same price as tanks and 57% increases etc) so any concern/interest Sammy might have about K&C pricing seems much less of a problem than with a similar thing happening with the brand we all know he collects. None of these points in this thread seemed to be of interest to Sammy so I guess he is not so interested with FL prices as he is with K&C's effect on others. Perhaps there might be FL collectors who are also concerned about price rises but Sammy does not want to raise that issue (he was not that bored).

Just my thoughts.
Brett

 

[The Military Workshop]

I don't think the comments like '' K&C camp'' and act with ''dignity'' are really relevant or needed. All the companies are linked because we have such small numbers (I would guess) of staunch collectors who buy only from one company. I certainly thought it was needed to be in this section all along but, that was nothing to do with protecting K&C or, a lack of dignity. Most who post here are eclectic collectors in nature and have items from many companies. The mix and match or whatever the label is. To isolate one company and allude to higher prices and possible price limits and, as the conversation went discuss their price rises in isolation in a small hobby was unfair. Its not about protecting one company over another its just common sense that this topic would expand into other areas which, it did and, become a general discussion. Therefore, in previous times where it would have ended up in a slanging match with some members saying mine is better than yours or, mine is more expensive so its better??? Its stayed as Sammy said with no deletions and a interesting topic where on the whole the ''guff'' stayed away.

Similar to the historical topics just discussed if you take out a character or event and discuss the minutia without enclosing all the information relevant then we get a slanted topic.
Mitch

Mitch,

I agree with you about collectors. If you think about the more active Aussie forum members Howard, Jack, Fitzgibbon, Larso, Villagehorse, both Wayne's, TomNT, Obee, Phil (when he is around{sm4}) The Ruskie, Rethynmo, they all collect more than one brand and some collect four. This applies to WWII collectors just as much as to those who collect pre 1900 type figures.

From what I can see price is just one of many factors people consider when buying TS's. Subject matter outweighs brand loyalty.

Rob and Sammy seem to be amongst the more obvious collectors sticking with one brand but there are not many.

Those that collect only the K&C brand are the rare exception so the comment about the "K&C camp handling this topic with a little more dignity" seems odd and I can not see what it might be based on.

Regards
Brett

 

[sammy719]

Chris,

Yes it is true FL figures a lot of money and yes it is true I do not stock FL. However here is my view on this thread.

Sammy started the thread but as he indicated he only buys occasional K&C ACW figures for his son. Any such figures have been $32 for years as there have been no new releases for a while (cheapest FL ACW figure is $55). From the time those figures have been $32 until now FL WWII figures have increased in price and clearly represent the great bulk of his purchases. Why would he be concerned about peoples thoughts about K&C prices ?

Personally I think he was bored and knew this thread would create some "interest" as he has seen similar threads many times and knows they always get a reaction. In fact an hour later he revived a 2 1/2 year old thread that had had no replies at all (showing a K&C Gunther Prien figure compared to what appears to be a handpainted Prien model) and said "and yea I'm that bored". I know because I replied to his two posts in that thread.

As has been mentioned anybody can post wherever they like on this forum. However I wonder what the reaction would have been if Rob had been currently posting and started a similar thread in FL area (see also a comment I am about to make in reply to Mitch).

Now dont get me wrong there are clearly a number of people in this thread who have issues with K&C pricing and as a dealer of K&C that concerns me as I am sure it does K&C.

If you look through this thread you will see comments about FL pricing (trucks same price as tanks and 57% increases etc) so any concern/interest Sammy might have about K&C pricing seems much less of a problem than with a similar thing happening with the brand we all know he collects. None of these points in this thread seemed to be of interest to Sammy so I guess he is not so interested with FL prices as he is with K&C's effect on others. Perhaps there might be FL collectors who are also concerned about price rises but Sammy does not want to raise that issue (he was not that bored).

Just my thoughts.
Brett

Man just can't get nothing past Brett, you have foiled another plot!!!! Brett I'm not going to have this thread turn into a bunch of deletions, lots of folks have kept it clean and voiced thier opinions about alot of companies, why don't you try that instead of throwing out accusations??(read my post 94) the thread is about pricing issues, but if you want to take a couple pot shots at First Legion by all means I wouldn't exspect anything else from you, and if it really bothers you about pricing with First legion then go start a thread there of your own...Sammy

 

[The Military Workshop]

Man just can't get nothing past Brett, you have foiled another plot!!!! Brett I'm not going to have this thread turn into a bunch of deletions, lots of folks have kept it clean and voiced thier opinions about alot of companies, why don't you try that instead of throwing out accusations??(read my post 94) the thread is about pricing issues, but if you want to take a couple pot shots at First Legion by all means I wouldn't exspect anything else from you, and if it really bothers you about pricing with First legion then go start a thread there of your own...Sammy

I did not say it was a plot. I suggested you were bored. The thread as you started it was about K&C pricing so my apologies if I have upset you by pointing out similar issues with the brand you collect (as others have done in this thread). I guess some things are easier for you to accept than others in a thread about pricing issues.

 

[sammy719]

I did not say it was a plot. I suggested you were bored. The thread as you started it was about K&C pricing so my apologies if I have upset you by pointing out similar issues with the brand you collect (as others have done in this thread). I guess some things are easier for you to accept than others in a thread about pricing issues.

It'a all good Brett, we all don't agree on everything, sports, foods, toy soldiers, whatever tis the case, I will say this as I have no quarrel or issues with K&C, always enjoyed thier products and still look forward to the monthly dispatches with my Robs thread, as with all the toy soldier makers, metal or plastics, there all good to me, wish i could collect them all!!...Sammy

 

[cnq]

I stopped buying KC figures more than a year ago due to fast increased pricing for the same quality.

 

[The Military Workshop]

It'a all good Brett, we all don't agree on everything, sports, foods, toy soldiers, whatever tis the case, I will say this as I have no quarrel or issues with K&C, always enjoyed thier products and still look forward to the monthly dispatches with my Robs thread, as with all the toy soldier makers, metal or plastics, there all good to me, wish i could collect them all!!...Sammy

As a dealer I wish all collectors could collect them all^&grin.

Each collector earns their own money and makes their own decisions. It is the job of producers and dealers to get as much of that money as they can^&grin. If the producers and dealers are doing well then it should also be good for the collectors. The TS hobby/business "circle of life"{sm4}.

 

[jazzeum]

I think K & C did a fantastic job with Prien (as they did with that sub-range; no pun intended). I purchased only a couple of figures, incluidng Prien. However, there's a bit of a difference between a highly painted model and a production piece. Both are fantastic.

Pity that they didn't add to the U-Boat range but perhaps they were in a quandary as to how to expand it.

 

[swalterh]

I don't think the comments like '' K&C camp'' and act with ''dignity'' are really relevant or needed. All the companies are linked because we have such small numbers (I would guess) of staunch collectors who buy only from one company. I certainly thought it was needed to be in this section all along but, that was nothing to do with protecting K&C or, a lack of dignity. Most who post here are eclectic collectors in nature and have items from many companies. The mix and match or whatever the label is. To isolate one company and allude to higher prices and possible price limits and, as the conversation went discuss their price rises in isolation in a small hobby was unfair. Its not about protecting one company over another its just common sense that this topic would expand into other areas which, it did and, become a general discussion. Therefore, in previous times where it would have ended up in a slanging match with some members saying mine is better than yours or, mine is more expensive so its better??? Its stayed as Sammy said with no deletions and a interesting topic where on the whole the ''guff'' stayed away.

Similar to the historical topics just discussed if you take out a character or event and discuss the minutia without enclosing all the information relevant then we get a slanted topic.
Mitch

Mitch

You bring up another interesting point for contemplation. Exactly how big is this market (toy soldier collectors)? And does the forum community accurately represent a sizable sample of the various collecting groups’ opinions within the overall market. Or does this market sample section (i.e. active forum participants) offer a slanted perspective?

There are many major collectors that I know who are not present on the forum. From my short stint of participation, it seems to me that there is an abundance of worldwide members and that the US collecting demographic is grossly underrepresented. So, when discussing topics related to the industry, I find myself asking how well of an outlook sample do these discussions and opinion polls provide?

I’d be interested to see more commentary from Brett and other dealers on this issue as they are in more direct contact with a broader sampling of collectors.

Shane

 

[Mitch]

I read the Gunther Prein thread and could not really understand what it was all about?? One is a cheap mass produced figure to fit into the KM range the other is a kit that was painted very well over several months (I know the painter) with no disrespect to K&C the painters used (as with most manufacturers figarti FL CS et al) can rail these figures out at a merry rate of speed so, to compare them is what this forum loves to use... Apples and pears!!!!!
Mitch

 

[jager7080]

Mitch,

I agree with you about collectors. If you think about the more active Aussie forum members Howard, Jack, Fitzgibbon, Larso, Villagehorse, both Wayne's, TomNT, Obee, Phil (when he is around{sm4}) The Ruskie, Rethynmo, they all collect more than one brand and some collect four. This applies to WWII collectors just as much as to those who collect pre 1900 type figures.

From what I can see price is just one of many factors people consider when buying TS's. Subject matter outweighs brand loyalty.

Rob and Sammy seem to be amongst the more obvious collectors sticking with one brand but there are not many.

Those that collect only the K&C brand are the rare exception so the comment about the "K&C camp handling this topic with a little more dignity" seems odd and I can not see what it might be based on.

Regards
Brett

Brett,

I have been collecting K&C for nearly twenty years...With only a small smattering of other companies & personal repaints or builds in my collection...I geuss that probably includes me in the K&C camp as Shane put it...I believe for my part i have handeled this thread with dignity...
I enjoy & prefer the look & craftsmanship of K&C...Over the years , Since the beginning of their AK & WS line , the quality of the figures has greatly improved IMO...
I am a huge DAK collector so i did purchase a FL figure to compare it & see how it fits in with my K&C...It was DAK 005 , it is a nice detailed figure although a little small compared to my K&C...Loyalty & bang for the buck would cause me not to continue purchasing FL , just my feelings no jab @ quality or FL collectors...I would rather buy a K&C figure for $44 than a FL one for $ 55 to $60...But to reply to the issue of pricing , Even though K&C has raised prices for their product...I believe in the adage you get what you pay for...We as K&C collector's pour heaps of want's on Andy , & expect a high standard from K&C...So i believe for Andy to continue to provide high quality & ever improving product line , i am willing to accept the pricing...In full disclosure i am also not a guy who buy's everything either...I buy what i like , when i have the money to spend it...Now , i am just waiting for those early war PZ's to roll off the K&C line & i will pop the $200 for them !

Joe

 

[Mitch]

I don't think its just the US that is not represented well on the forum as it will be the same with all countries. I know several big collectors in the UK who are not even online and several who would not even contemplate joining a forum. Similarly I know several LAH collectors in Europe that I have met from this shared interest and, in my travels meeting German veterans many, who have bought toy soldiers because of their service and, they are not interested in shows or forums etc but, I would venture have as big or similar as heavy participants on here. I know one collector in my village who has over 15,000 TS covering about 50 years.

Its similar to how long is a piece of string this forum will be in some way a reasonable demographic of the collectors worldwide and in some ways not. what are you basing your sample criteria on? Any sample controlled etc would hold a bias and, as with most research projects a slant is gained from the researcher and, the original hypothesis.

Andy just recently mentioned the size of the collector numbers as some 30,000 If I remember rightly so, this forum has some 3,000 members of which only a small number are active but, again, that tells us nothing really and, are points.
Mitch

Mitch

You bring up another interesting point for contemplation. Exactly how big is this market (toy soldier collectors)? And does the forum community accurately represent a sizable sample of the various collecting groups’ opinions within the overall market. Or does this market sample section (i.e. active forum participants) offer a slanted perspective?

There are many major collectors that I know who are not present on the forum. From my short stint of participation, it seems to me that there is an abundance of worldwide members and that the US collecting demographic is grossly underrepresented. So, when discussing topics related to the industry, I find myself asking how well of an outlook sample do these discussions and opinion polls provide?

I’d be interested to see more commentary from Brett and other dealers on this issue as they are in more direct contact with a broader sampling of collectors.

Shane

 

[swalterh]

I don't think its just the US that is not represented well on the forum as it will be the same with all countries. I know several big collectors in the UK who are not even online and several who would not even contemplate joining a forum. Similarly I know several LAH collectors in Europe that I have met from this shared interest and, in my travels meeting German veterans many, who have bought toy soldiers because of their service and, they are not interested in shows or forums etc but, I would venture have as big or similar as heavy participants on here. I know one collector in my village who has over 15,000 TS covering about 50 years.

Its similar to how long is a piece of string this forum will be in some way a reasonable demographic of the collectors worldwide and in some ways not. what are you basing your sample criteria on? Any sample controlled etc would hold a bias and, as with most research projects a slant is gained from the researcher and, the original hypothesis.

Andy just recently mentioned the size of the collector numbers as some 30,000 If I remember rightly so, this forum has some 3,000 members of which only a small number are active but, again, that tells us nothing really and, are points.
Mitch

Mitch

Thank you for your commentary. And of those 30,000 or so collectors, IYO what eras and subject matter are these individuals most interested? I recently was viewing a transcription of a Q&A session with Andy on Brett’s website. He said that the most of any figure he has produced is 10,000 of certain marching and firing poses. Do you believe this is accurate, or is this number inflated?

Shane

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I don't think its just the US that is not represented well on the forum as it will be the same with all countries. I know several big collectors in the UK who are not even online and several who would not even contemplate joining a forum. Similarly I know several LAH collectors in Europe that I have met from this shared interest and, in my travels meeting German veterans many, who have bought toy soldiers because of their service and, they are not interested in shows or forums etc but, I would venture have as big or similar as heavy participants on here. I know one collector in my village who has over 15,000 TS covering about 50 years.

Its similar to how long is a piece of string this forum will be in some way a reasonable demographic of the collectors worldwide and in some ways not. what are you basing your sample criteria on? Any sample controlled etc would hold a bias and, as with most research projects a slant is gained from the researcher and, the original hypothesis.

Andy just recently mentioned the size of the collector numbers as some 30,000 If I remember rightly so, this forum has some 3,000 members of which only a small number are active but, again, that tells us nothing really and, are points.
Mitch

If the size of the collector market is 30,000, and about 600 members of Treefrog Forum are active on the forum, that's a 2% sample size which is statistically significant. There would be a bias toward collectors who are on the internet and are on forums, but no way to know what that bias is or if it makes any difference at all. If 30,000 is the market size, then I have to think Treefrog is a better indicator of the market than I considered before.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

I have no idea and only Andy and his staff would know the numbers of figures they sell. I know that marching figures must go into many thousands especially LAH from my own collection and some of the ones I have seen but, then I suppose its the same for Naps as there are some very big collection of those also.

Not really sure why Andy would have to inflate sales and I would probably believe him when he says he sells X amount I have heard them also state that some items were not good sellers.
Mitch

Mitch

Thank you for your commentary. And of those 30,000 or so collectors, IYO what eras and subject matter are these individuals most interested? I recently was viewing a transcription of a Q&A session with Andy on Brett’s website. He said that the most of any figure he has produced is 10,000 of certain marching and firing poses. Do you believe this is accurate, or is this number inflated?

Shane

 

[OzDigger]

Chris,

Yes it is true FL figures a lot of money and yes it is true I do not stock FL. However here is my view on this thread.

Sammy started the thread but as he indicated he only buys occasional K&C ACW figures for his son. Any such figures have been $32 for years as there have been no new releases for a while (cheapest FL ACW figure is $55). From the time those figures have been $32 until now FL WWII figures have increased in price and clearly represent the great bulk of his purchases. Why would he be concerned about peoples thoughts about K&C prices ?

Personally I think he was bored and knew this thread would create some "interest" as he has seen similar threads many times and knows they always get a reaction. In fact an hour later he revived a 2 1/2 year old thread that had had no replies at all (showing a K&C Gunther Prien figure compared to what appears to be a handpainted Prien model) and said "and yea I'm that bored". I know because I replied to his two posts in that thread.

As has been mentioned anybody can post wherever they like on this forum. However I wonder what the reaction would have been if Rob had been currently posting and started a similar thread in FL area (see also a comment I am about to make in reply to Mitch).

Now dont get me wrong there are clearly a number of people in this thread who have issues with K&C pricing and as a dealer of K&C that concerns me as I am sure it does K&C.

If you look through this thread you will see comments about FL pricing (trucks same price as tanks and 57% increases etc) so any concern/interest Sammy might have about K&C pricing seems much less of a problem than with a similar thing happening with the brand we all know he collects. None of these points in this thread seemed to be of interest to Sammy so I guess he is not so interested with FL prices as he is with K&C's effect on others. Perhaps there might be FL collectors who are also concerned about price rises but Sammy does not want to raise that issue (he was not that bored).

Just my thoughts.
Brett

Despite Sammy's opening sentence I also viewed his thread as a blatant attempt to stir up some trouble, I understood we were past such antics. It seemed very hypocritical to me because I suspect he had some say in me being banned from the First Legion section of this forum because I made a few light hearted jokes about their size.

I am unbiased about Toy Soldiers and provide pros and cons on all the sets and find the fanatical supporters club (of any product) more than a bit sad and pathetic, especially when owners etc are dragged into the 'fights'. Which is partly why I have switched my collecting focus to a less well known brand, something to think about.

 

[sammy719]

I changed direction in collecting when prices for a foot fig went to $40. There are many great figs on the market for under $35. Same with vehicles, I buy the occassional WWII piece, but under $200. Chris

Despite Sammy's opening sentence I also viewed his thread as a blatant attempt to stir up some trouble, I understood we were past such antics. It seemed very hypocritical to me because I suspect he had some say in me being banned from the First Legion section of this forum because I made a few light hearted jokes about their size.

I am unbiased about Toy Soldiers and provide pros and cons on all the sets and find the fanatical supporters club (of any product) more than a bit sad and pathetic, especially when owners etc are dragged into the 'fights'. Which is partly why I have switched my collecting focus to a less well known brand, something to think about.

Sorry oz, you are wrong on both accounts as I have stated my thoughts for starting this thread and as far as first legion I have no clue about you there and any issues feel free to asked any mods or Pete Shannon if I ever mentioned your name, I have always enjoyed discussions with you on this forum pm or other wise, oh well, I find it funny as I have never spoke bad of K&C on any forum and I bring up 1 thread on pricing and the nasty comments have been rolln ever since??? ...Sammy

 

[swalterh]

I am unbiased about Toy Soldiers and provide pros and cons on all the sets and find the fanatical supporters club (of any product) more than a bit sad and pathetic, especially when owners etc are dragged into the 'fights'. Which is partly why I have switched my collecting focus to a less well known brand, something to think about.

I'm all for supporting the smaller toy soldier makers, as well as our favorite high volume producers.

I don't think that anyone engaged in this discussion is intentionally trying to brand bash.

The problem with the increasing prices for the companies on the supply side is that the higher the price of an idividual figure goes up the more attractive the industry becomes to other potnetial producers. This can be a good thing for consumers & dealers in the long run as it will provide more options and more competitive pricing. But, this can be a bit uncomfortable for some while going through any type of market tranisition.

It appears from our discussion here that we might be approaching this threshold. K&C have built there business on the dollars of a certain market segment and now, due in large part to continued price increases, some of those loyal followers are begining to feel as though they are being left behind. This is certainly a tough situation for the decision heads @ K&C.

Again, K&C sets the industry standard. When they go up, everybody else goes up. Just because there are other brands that are priced above the market leader (FL) this doesn't mean that they command the type of industry wide influence that the industry leader enjoys.

It will be interesting to see if the price increases continue at their recently established pace.