Rather poor judgment (2 Viewers)

[Scott]

using a WWII era german insignia or design in and of itself doesn't mean somebody or group is anti-Semitic, yet people seem to jump to that conclusion before anything else comes to mind. i think they adopted it because, frankly, it looks cool and intimidating. ........

I remember a low rent sci-fi movie on MST3K with New York gangs (not The Warriors) with one group in white with white German helmets. The MST3K comment was that they were the "good Nazis"

.....but senior people in that unit should have realized what this was and told their snipers not to use it after giving them a history lesson.

There you have it. Check the chaplain especially.

 

[Jack]

[There you have it. Check the chaplain especially.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if the whole small group loyalty thing makes such a stand close to impossible. I have never dealt with a military chaplain apart from interviewing a few elderley Catholic Chaplains (all very impressive men but too few to be a real cross section) but do they fight for credibility in a unit such as this? Are they honoured members of the group whose opinion is welcomed? Would they see it as something to ignore in order that they retain a place in the lives of the men they minister to? Not an excuse, because if you don't get moral direction from your chaplain who are you getting it from, but just a thought about why good men and women may have made a mistake in this case.

 

[Scott]

I just checked with the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. There is a good series of correspondence about the use of the Rune Flag.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2012/02/the-recent-usmc-sniper-scout-incident/

A writer reports that is was purchased here...


"...As to the nature of the emblem and flag itself, and whether those Marines knew what they were getting — there can be no doubt that at least some of them knew this was a Nazi Schutzstaffel flag, since they obtained it from a web-site called “Traders of the Lost Surplus” (which one waggish reporter has dubbed “Nazis ‘R’ Us”), a site that specializes in Nazi replicas and memorabilia. Have a look for yourself:.."

http://www.totls.com/index.php?opti...id=16:close-out-corner&catid=1:home&Itemid=30

Here's the catalog sample in Blue...

 

[Jack]

I just checked with the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. There is a good series of correspondence about the use of the Rune Flag.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2012/02/the-recent-usmc-sniper-scout-incident/

A writer reports that is was purchased here...


"...As to the nature of the emblem and flag itself, and whether those Marines knew what they were getting — there can be no doubt that at least some of them knew this was a Nazi Schutzstaffel flag, since they obtained it from a web-site called “Traders of the Lost Surplus” (which one waggish reporter has dubbed “Nazis ‘R’ Us”), a site that specializes in Nazi replicas and memorabilia. Have a look for yourself:.."

http://www.totls.com/index.php?opti...id=16:close-out-corner&catid=1:home&Itemid=30

Here's the catalog sample in Blue...

Scott

If I am ever in court and you are the prosecutor I think I'll go the plea bargain!!{sm4} Hard to find any excuse now other than a 'lapse in judgement'.

Jack

 

[Mitch]

Interesting comments especially those who are connected themsleves with an elite fighting unit. I don't agree with his response that a distinction between the waffen SS and camp gurads is a myth perpetuated by modern neo nazi's thats a little bit of nonsense as a historian and someone who has heavily researched the Waffen SS.

There is a distiction for many military and historian personel. The problems are caused when folks lump everyone into the same mix. They served the same regime but, its amazing that some will not today even accept that the waffen SS were a fighting unit of immense capability and, one that garnered respect from every nation that fought them. I have even seen russian accounts that respected their dogged tenacity.

The only obfuscation to this was teddy eiche's totenkopf which derived from the early camp guards though, long before what is mainstream know as the death camps.

I wonder what the situation would have been if they had decided to use and display the german police badge from WWII as their symbol or, a host of other units not connected with the SS but, whom were active in the murder of millions of people under the banner of the einsatzgruppen. The vast majority of these were not SS but, Heer units and police with, the tacit help of many occupied countries police, defence forces, and certain parts of the population

How is it some admire and respect units like the Panzer Lehr division and Gross deutschland yet dispise the Leibstandarte or das reich? simply, its easier to say everything SS was bad. They easily make the distinction between Heer and SS but, cannot when it comes to sub catagorizing the SS.

Its like saying every german in the SS was a fervent nazi and there were none in the Heer.
Mitch

 

[Jack]

Its like saying every german in the SS was a fervent nazi and there were none in the Heer.
Mitch[/QUOTE]

Were the SS used as an alibi by the Germans themselves? Could the lumping of all German units together under the banner Nazi be the flip side to the attempt by West Gernmany in the 1950s to lay the blame for genocide at the feet of the 'fanatics'? Not my area so I offer it as a discussion point by those better read in this area than me- which is probably most of you!

 

[waynepoo]

Back to the point of the thread, it was without doubt poor judgment for a US military unit to use a German (nazi or not) symbol at all, they have a rich military heritage / history of their own from which to choose a purely US symbol for their unit, surely?.
Wayne.

 

[Mitch]

Jack...

The germans are now in recent years beginning to address their history in a more sensible manner than they have. Refusing to pension SS veterans was a part of this and, not acknoledging them as fighting troops was a strange guilt driven decision. Not every german who took part in the actions was a fervant nazi and thats the point missed when catagorising one part of an entire regime. Nothing on the scale of destruction could have began to take place without the tacit and, real help from the Heer.

Its the mix that interests me its easy to say they were fanatics but, thats too simplistic as is saying if your SS then you were part of the camp programme. some of the commentators who state quite strong comments like from this site scott has posted seem to know as little as the people they condemn. Its driven by hatred and emotion rather than knowledge and awareness of the regime and, its workings.
Mitch

Its like saying every german in the SS was a fervent nazi and there were none in the Heer.
Mitch

Were the SS used as an alibi by the Germans themselves? Could the lumping of all German units together under the banner Nazi be the flip side to the attempt by West Gernmany in the 1950s to lay the blame for genocide at the feet of the 'fanatics'? Not my area so I offer it as a discussion point by those better read in this area than me- which is probably most of you![/QUOTE]

 

[Jack]

Back to the point of the thread, it was without doubt poor judgment for a US military unit to use a German (nazi or not) symbol at all, they have a rich military heritage / history of their own from which to choose a purely US symbol for their unit, surely?.
Wayne.

Wayne

The reason I wandered from the thread topic was the fact that the ideas I articulated over a week ago constituted the definitive statement on this issue. I have thus rendered all further discussion unneccessary. I thought going out on a tangent would give people something else to talk about!!

Your humble servant

Jack

 

[Mitch]

Wayne Poo..

With respect I think as Scott has posted a site where points about this were raised from troops and, others its very much on point. The inability of some to see anything other than these symbols represent death camps is very much the point. Thats too simplistic and, while might garner cheers from sections does not address why these military units view the SS runes as a valid symbol and, representing an elite military force and not camp guards. That IMO is the crux of the issue very salient and not wandering the thread in any way. The whole point is that troops viewed its use as appropriate to their unit and, shared a fellow link with elite units from other era's

Jack.. Your last comment is a joke hopefully?
Mitch

 

[waynepoo]

Wayne

The reason I wandered from the thread topic was the fact that the ideas I articulated over a week ago constituted the definitive statement on this issue. I have thus rendered all further discussion unneccessary. I thought going out on a tangent would give people something else to talk about!!

Your humble servant

Jack

Jack, I am mortified that you think I was having a go at you.:redface2: You know I get confused when you use words with more than eight letters in them.^&grin I should have used some well placed smileys.{eek3} (hope you have comfy deck chairs for fish & chips)
Wayne.

 

[Jack]

Jack, I am mortified that you think I was having a go at you.:redface2: You know I get confused when you use words with more than eight letters in them.^&grin I should have used some well placed smileys.{eek3} (hope you have comfy deck chairs for fish & chips)
Wayne.

I am more than happy to be judged - but only by God and History!

 

[Jack]

Jack.. Your last comment is a joke hopefully?
Mitch[/QUOTE]

Yes it was...but obviously not a good one if someone has to ask!!{sm4}{sm4}

 

[Scott]

I am more than happy to be judged - but only by God and History!

A jury of your peers? :wink2:

 

[Scott]

Well sure! I know it's a joke. It's obvious in my profile that I'm an ASQ Certified Quality Control Inspector hence interested in facts, measurements, documentation and such so that products don't kill you or at least work as advertised.

 

[Jack]

Well sure! I know it's a joke. It's obvious in my profile that I'm an ASQ Certified Quality Control Inspector hence interested in facts, measurements, documentation and such so that products don't kill you or at least work as advertised.

Had to read it twice but it was worth the effort when I got there!{bravo}}

 

[oldtrousers]

Gentlemen,
Not to rehash an old thread, but I have not checked the forum in quite a while. I believe I can clarify the photo a bit. The SS symbol has been used by Marine Corps SCOUT SNIPERs for quite some time. The symbol stands for just that: Scout Sniper, MOS 8541 (the MOS number has changed in recent years I think), not some idealization of the Waffen-SS. When I graduated from the course in 1995 many of the guys in the program got "SS" tattoos under their arm pits with the last four of their social security numbers (SSN's were used as serial numbers then), and almost everyone obtained a 7.62 mm M118 bullet called a "Hog's Tooth" to be worn around the neck on a length of parachute cord. . This was most certainly a poor choice to display the flag in the unit photo, but once again the media does no research before condeming our brave men on the front lines. I believe if it was clarified why the symbol was being used most people would understand? Anyway, I hope this helps to clear this up - Scott

 

[bromhead]

Gentlemen,
Not to rehash an old thread, but I have not checked the forum in quite a while. I believe I can clarify the photo a bit. The SS symbol has been used by Marine Corps SCOUT SNIPERs for quite some time. The symbol stands for just that: Scout Sniper, MOS 8541 (the MOS number has changed in recent years I think), not some idealization of the Waffen-SS. When I graduated from the course in 1995 many of the guys in the program got "SS" tattoos under their arm pits with the last four of their social security numbers (SSN's were used as serial numbers then), and almost everyone obtained a 7.62 mm M118 bullet called a "Hog's Tooth" to be worn around the neck on a length of parachute cord. . This was most certainly a poor choice to display the flag in the unit photo, but once again the media does no research before condeming our brave men on the front lines. I believe if it was clarified why the symbol was being used most people would understand? Anyway, I hope this helps to clear this up - Scott

Show a photo or document the source that the ss runes are the official marine corps symbol

 

[BLReed]

Show a photo or document the source that the ss runes are the official marine corps symbol

He didn't say anything about "official," nor did he even elude to it being so.

 

[Mitch]

Very interesting post
Mitch

Gentlemen,
Not to rehash an old thread, but I have not checked the forum in quite a while. I believe I can clarify the photo a bit. The SS symbol has been used by Marine Corps SCOUT SNIPERs for quite some time. The symbol stands for just that: Scout Sniper, MOS 8541 (the MOS number has changed in recent years I think), not some idealization of the Waffen-SS. When I graduated from the course in 1995 many of the guys in the program got "SS" tattoos under their arm pits with the last four of their social security numbers (SSN's were used as serial numbers then), and almost everyone obtained a 7.62 mm M118 bullet called a "Hog's Tooth" to be worn around the neck on a length of parachute cord. . This was most certainly a poor choice to display the flag in the unit photo, but once again the media does no research before condeming our brave men on the front lines. I believe if it was clarified why the symbol was being used most people would understand? Anyway, I hope this helps to clear this up - Scott