Rather poor judgment (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

I am sure we could debate such a recruitment slogan as much as the use of Nazi SS runes.
Mitch

 

[wayne556517]

Anyone else think Rob was arguing in this Thread........................^&grin

 

[Al Fisher]

FACT : The use of SS symbols is offensive to those of us who lived through WW!!. FACT : It may seem anti-semitic to those who lost family or friends.

Bosun Al

 

[Rob]

Anyone else think Rob was arguing in this Thread........................^&grin

NO THEY DON'T!!!^&grin^&grin

You'll have to do better than that Wayne, I've been a good boy and you KNOW IT!!^&grin Did you notice I didn't even rise to your Churchill remark the other day, I tell you mate I've turned over a new leaf, and we whupped Pakistan 4-0 in the one dayers so I'm a happy bunny!:smile2::smile2:

Hope you get your Stuka soon Wayne, will get pics in London of anyone who has one ready^&cool^&cool

Rob

 

[theBaron]

Actually, I think we've done pretty well in this thread, keeping a relatively civil discussion going, and not getting the thread locked. There have been disagreements, but the discussion has proceeded with candor, intelligence and good will.

Whether Rob has violated his own New Year's resolution, well, I can't be the judge of that... ^&grin

Prosit!
Brad

 

[debrito]

Up till 5 years ago I wouldnt even have known that it had some kind of attachment to the nazis. I do okay with understanding German equipment but unit insignia is a blank for me- heck, I think even Spinal Tap uses/d these types of runes for some of their concerts.

Good, bad or indifferent, there is a very healthy admiration/respect for the German Army amongst US military forces. I really believe this is a chain of command decision, some units are allowed to somewhat openly display pictures of Rommel (like was done with a picture of Rommel in a TOC APC during the Persian Gulf, battle of 73 easting) then there are some that disapprove, which happened to a Ranger buddy of mine who scored a AK Helmet outside a market in Baghdad and then told upon leaving the country he wasn't allowed to have it and sold it to some other dude. Really hit or miss on this type of thing.

Chris, this is not German military symbol, is Schutzstaffel Symbol of a paramilitary indoctrinated organization devoted to apply Nazi’s ideology, nothing to do with German Army...History and general knowledge should be mandatory in school until the first year of University.

 

[Jack]

Chris, this is not German military symbol, is Schutzstaffel Symbol of a paramilitary indoctrinated organization devoted to apply Nazi’s ideology, nothing to do with German Army...History and general knowledge should be mandatory in school until the first year of University.

I teach history in schools and at University and I agree that it should be mandatory but the problem, as we have found in Australia, is that it depends on 'whose history' is taught. We are experiencing what we refer to as The History Wars - the right wing (hasn't everything been great since Europeans arrived) celebratory history versus the left wing black armband (all evil is the result of the white man) view, and of course everything in between. The teaching of history is really open to political interference. Imagine if we had a meeting of treefroggers and discussed the way history should be taught? It would be a history war in a far more literal sense!{sm4}

The other issue is the fact that so much of what our parents taught us is now part of what goes on at a school. A rash of car accidents with young people killed and there is a call for driver safety in the curriculum, financial woes, let's teach cash management, child abuse, let's teach parent craft and so on.

 

[Fusilier]

I teach history in schools and at University and I agree that it should be mandatory but the problem, as we have found in Australia, is that it depends on 'whose history' is taught. We are experiencing what we refer to as The History Wars - the right wing (hasn't everything been great since Europeans arrived) celebratory history versus the left wing black armband (all evil is the result of the white man) view, and of course everything in between. The teaching of history is really open to political interference. Imagine if we had a meeting of treefroggers and discussed the way history should be taught? It would be a history war in a far more literal sense!{sm4}

Jack, I tend to agree with you on principle, but I have a question. Where along the historical spectrum that you properly describe would the recognition of a Nazi/SS symbol fall? As you point out, the problem with the much of today's historical reporting is that it tends to be biased towards one of the two extremes. Still, I believe such perspectives are really irrelevant when it comes to connecting these runic letters to the German SS. Such a connection is not really dependent on any political perspective or inference.

Noah

 

[Jack]

Jack, I tend to agree with you on principle, but I have a question. Where along the historical spectrum that you properly describe would the recognition of a Nazi/SS symbol fall? As you point out, the problem with the much of today's historical reporting is that it tends to be biased towards one of the two extremes. Still, I believe such perspectives are really irrelevant when it comes to connecting these runic letters to the German SS. Such a connection is not really dependent on any political perspective or inference.

Noah

Rather excited that at long last someone has agreed with one of my posts, but I will attempt a reply! For me, and I suspect for you, they are a symbol of all that is base in human nature - they represent humanity at its worst, our hatreds, our capacity for evil, our failure to recognise a common humanity with those who appear outwardly different. But they remain just that - a symbol, one which does not have the same resonance with people of a different age and background.

I disagree with its use as much because it is inaccurate as on any moral grounds. It does not stand for what America stands for - democracy, rule of law, the basic inalienable rights enshrined in the American way of life - the America that is represented by symbols like the Statue of Liberty or the statue at Omaha which symbolises (from memory) the spirit of American youth as it emerges from the waters of the Channel in the fight against Nazism. Nazi symbols do not reflect American values in any way, shape or form. They do not represent America at its best. I think that is a pivotal issue which has probably got a little bit lost.

That said - and I speak as a 45 year old middle class Australian of English/Irish extraction - many students do not see the Nazis as actors in events that involve them. They belong to history, in the same way that they did not see the issue when George Bush used 'crusade' to describe the Gulf War. We know that what Nazi symbols represent has implications for us, but to 15 year olds they just do not get the connection. For these soldiers - for whom American values are by definition worth dying for - they too just do not see a connection. They're not fools, but they just do not see the symbols as evil, and given their training the greater the opposition the more important the symbol becomes. I think to them they might just as well chosen a Viking helmet for all the historical links that they draw.

Thanks for the history chat - must go - I am off to try to teach some history to students who think the 1980s are the 'olden days'.

 

[Napoleon1er]

Alright boys- I was instructed to pick a very controversial topic for a semester long research paper that supports a thesis taking one side. This is the topic I picked (that is this/the corps desecration). My position is firmly against these practices, focusing on education rather than punishment. Does anyone have any references I can use? I am also allowed to do interviews, so..... By the way- I am using examples in history to support my claims, such as the contrast between Napoleon's Spanish campaign and his Polish campaign, the first of which had a negative reaction, while the latter had a somewhat positive reaction. Any help?

 

[Scott]

Jack, I lived the 1980s and it IS the "olden days." I must add that the US Marine unit was trained by officers that should have had the maturity and education to know that the rune SS had more than a badass look. My concern extends to moral and spiritual leadership that should have known and either counseled or ORDERED the unit to desist using the rune flag. Maybe THAT did happen in end.

 

[Jack]

Jack, I lived the 1980s and it IS the "olden days." I must add that the US Marine unit was trained by officers that should have had the maturity and education to know that the rune SS had more than a badass look. My concern extends to moral and spiritual leadership that should have known and either counseled or ORDERED the unit to desist using the rune flag. Maybe THAT did happen in end.

It is a day for agreement - you are completely correct.

You would be surprised at how often people who agree with me are correct!{sm4}

 

[Jack]

Jack, I lived the 1980s and it IS the "olden days."

If you can remeber the 80s you weren't really there!{sm4}

 

[Fusilier]

Rather excited that at long last someone has agreed with one of my posts, but I will attempt a reply! For me, and I suspect for you, they are a symbol of all that is base in human nature - they represent humanity at its worst, our hatreds, our capacity for evil, our failure to recognise a common humanity with those who appear outwardly different. But they remain just that - a symbol, one which does not have the same resonance with people of a different age and background.

I disagree with its use as much because it is inaccurate as on any moral grounds. It does not stand for what America stands for - democracy, rule of law, the basic inalienable rights enshrined in the American way of life - the America that is represented by symbols like the Statue of Liberty or the statue at Omaha which symbolises (from memory) the spirit of American youth as it emerges from the waters of the Channel in the fight against Nazism. Nazi symbols do not reflect American values in any way, shape or form. They do not represent America at its best. I think that is a pivotal issue which has probably got a little bit lost.

That said - and I speak as a 45 year old middle class Australian of English/Irish extraction - many students do not see the Nazis as actors in events that involve them. They belong to history, in the same way that they did not see the issue when George Bush used 'crusade' to describe the Gulf War. We know that what Nazi symbols represent has implications for us, but to 15 year olds they just do not get the connection. For these soldiers - for whom American values are by definition worth dying for - they too just do not see a connection. They're not fools, but they just do not see the symbols as evil, and given their training the greater the opposition the more important the symbol becomes. I think to them they might just as well chosen a Viking helmet for all the historical links that they draw.

Thanks for the history chat - must go - I am off to try to teach some history to students who think the 1980s are the 'olden days'.

Jack, your explanation here is very well done and I wish you luck in your teaching endeavor. My wife teaches in a high school here in the U.S., so she has also experienced being the 'old' person in the room.^&grin

I think we agree in principle about this specific use of the SS-runes, but may slightly disagree about its signifigance. In theory, I understand your argument that there is a disconnect between symbols and historical meaning for many young people. I would say that this disconnect is centered primarily on the time-seperation between certain events and our modern era. However, I can't get past the feeling that society in general has failed when such a blatant symbol of a horrid regime is not identified for what it is. I mean, there are of course numerous and obscure symbols from many eras of history which even educated persons like ourselves might not recognize. But, how sad of a commentary on our times is it, when obvious symbols from arguably the most reviled group in history, are not even recognized?

Noah

 

[waynepoo]

Jack, I lived the 1980s and it IS the "olden days."

If you can remeber the 80s you weren't really there!{sm4}

You can say that again.....ah, what was the question again:tongue:^&grin
Wayne.

 

[Jack]

However, I can't get past the feeling that society in general has failed when such a blatant symbol of a horrid regime is not identified for what it is. I mean, there are of course numerous and obscure symbols from many eras of history which even educated persons like ourselves might not recognize. But, how sad of a commentary on our times is it, when obvious symbols from arguably the most reviled group in history, are not even recognized?

Noah

For two people 99 percent in agreement it is a lot of fun teasing out that remaining one percent!

An associated issue (I am not sure if one created the other or if they are symptomatic of the same failing) is the failure not only to educate our young about what we have opposed in the past, and continue to oppose in the present (eg Nazi symbols, fascism in the Middle East (I refuse to see it as a clash of religions), but to inculcate in them a respect and valuing of their own culture's belief system. It is harder sometimes to teach the values we stand for than the ones we oppose - hatreds seem, tragically, easier to justify.

Tolerance is a wonderful thing, but it has left countries like Australia and I assume the UK and the US, finding it harder to generate agreement on what things in the world are fundamentally wrong. Its not about teaching blind patriotism, but a confidence in their own world - democracy, rule of law - so that they we can say 'that is wrong' without saying, as one staff member did in a staffroom I now, thank God, do not share, '9/11 was terrible, but look how we have treated our indigenous people, so we cannot judge' or 'the root cause of all terrorism is the inequitable distribution of wealth' because in some strange way that made her feel better because she could criticise her own world as having brought it on themselves. I suspect we have lost confidence in our own way of life and have questioned so much that it is hard to teach people that you do not have to be perfect to oppose wrong when they see it.

As an associated point which might lead to further discussion, I used to hate seeing the US flag burnt at demonstrations, perhaps more as an emotional reaction than an intellectual one. But I try to see it now as a good thing - you have to respect a society that is so committed to freedom of expression and is confident in the worth of its founding principles that it defends the right of people to burn its most sacred symbol. Not to criticise my own, I doubt whether Australians would have that same confidence (we have traditionally not been into flag burning) because we do not have something like the War of Independence to draw on as a unifying event. We have WW1 and WW2, but they occured halfway through European settlement, so our foundation stories came late, which is why we are probably so sensitive about them.

 

[Scott]

"....Tolerance is a wonderful thing, but it has left countries like Australia and I assume the UK and the US, finding it harder to generate agreement on what things in the world are fundamentally wrong....."

Jack,

Murder is wrong. Slavery is wrong. Bigotry is wrong. Cruelty is wrong. Ignorance of the preceding is wrong. It's a short list. As the man said, the rest is commentary.

 

[Mitch]

Jack...

Interesting supposition. Could you explain how you see Fascism as a causal effect for the events in the middle east and, not based upon religion or politics? With that comment are you basing it on the west intervening in these countries or, the local nations and, their animosity towards Israel?

As this forum shys away from Religion as a topic you could PM me if its seen as a religious or political dialogue
Mitch

 

[Napoleon1er]

Any source ideas guys?

 

[Gideon]

using a WWII era german insignia or design in and of itself doesn't mean somebody or group is anti-Semitic, yet people seem to jump to that conclusion before anything else comes to mind.

i think they adopted it because, frankly, it looks cool and intimidating. but senior people in that unit should have realized what this was and told their snipers not to use it after giving them a history lesson.