Reflections and thoughts on "P" (1 Viewer)

[Cyber Field Marshall]

I thought I'd let the new dispatch settle for a little while to collect my thoughts. I was so overwhelmed at all the great releases. I want them all and there are a lot of retirements I want too however the reality is I can't have it all. I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses. The disappointment in the K&C premium release price was predictable to be sure. But where do we go from here as we've definitely had a paradigm shift. K&C has made a foray into the "premium" world of toy soldiers such as Aeroart and FL. I have always admired those companies releases but unfortunately from afar because of their premium cost. K&C has been a nice alternative, good quality at a “reasonable” price. However for purely selfish reasons I don’t need K&C to be another FL. The term Pathfinder is very appropriate because K&C are going down an untried path. From a business point of view this move makes sense as it is just another product line to cater to another perceived market segment. However I wish they hadn’t chosen my favourite line (OPERATION MARKET GARDEN) to do this with! {sm2} Many have said they won’t buy them, or that they’re not worth it because the painting doesn’t justify the cost etc. Until I see one in the flesh I'll withold judgement but they appear to be very good. What is a collector to do? Where does it end? If a figure costs $100 do we still buy, buy less, switch brands?
I feel confused and at a crossroads here with my collection. ^&confuse This feeling emerged when K&C arbitrarily raised prices of all their existing stock awhile back and frankly my purchases have been drastically curtailed ever since. Figures have very quickly gone from $21 to $29 to $32 to $42 and now $59 and next is....???? {eek3} My friends and family thought I was crazy paying $21 a figure but now its a whole other level of insanity. Thank goodness I have amassed a sizable collection and only have bits and pieces to add to it. I guess at the end of all this as a VERY LOYAL K&C customer I’m feeling a little betrayed with this whole “Premium” path K&C has taken especially since on this forum Andy had stated we could look forward to stable prices shortly after the wholesale price increases from awhile back. I won’t say I won’t buy anymore pieces but my budget is set and it’ll buy me a whole lot less and at the end of the day I don’t think I’m alone. Surely K&C sales and likely revenue must slow down or plateau and that can’t be good business. In my opinion K&C should stop trying to be all things to all collectors and get back to what they do best and aim for their bread and butter market which I think is offering a wide variety of product at the “upper-mid market” price point. Ultimately the success or failure of the premium (P) series will be born out by whether or not we ever see more of them or they disappear forever. Time will tell.

 

[Harper (aka Spitfrnd)]

My one thought is that if you and most simply buy less than as long as K&C doesn't make too many they should be fine and benefit from the additional revenue from those who prefer and feel the greater detail is justified. Afterall, if your budget is set, what does it matter what they cost until the price of one exceeds your budget?

 

[Desertkiwi]

I thought I'd let the new dispatch settle for a little while to collect my thoughts. I was so overwhelmed at all the great releases. I want them all and there are a lot of retirements I want too however the reality is I can't have it all. I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses. The disappointment in the K&C premium release price was predictable to be sure. But where do we go from here as we've definitely had a paradigm shift. K&C has made a foray into the "premium" world of toy soldiers such as Aeroart and FL. I have always admired those companies releases but unfortunately from afar because of their premium cost. K&C has been a nice alternative, good quality at a “reasonable” price. However for purely selfish reasons I don’t need K&C to be another FL. The term Pathfinder is very appropriate because K&C are going down an untried path. From a business point of view this move makes sense as it is just another product line to cater to another perceived market segment. However I wish they hadn’t chosen my favourite line (OPERATION MARKET GARDEN) to do this with! {sm2} Many have said they won’t buy them, or that they’re not worth it because the painting doesn’t justify the cost etc. Until I see one in the flesh I'll withold judgement but they appear to be very good. What is a collector to do? Where does it end? If a figure costs $100 do we still buy, buy less, switch brands?
I feel confused and at a crossroads here with my collection. ^&confuse This feeling emerged when K&C arbitrarily raised prices of all their existing stock awhile back and frankly my purchases have been drastically curtailed ever since. Figures have very quickly gone from $21 to $29 to $32 to $42 and now $59 and next is....???? {eek3} My friends and family thought I was crazy paying $21 a figure but now its a whole other level of insanity. Thank goodness I have amassed a sizable collection and only have bits and pieces to add to it. I guess at the end of all this as a VERY LOYAL K&C customer I’m feeling a little betrayed with this whole “Premium” path K&C has taken especially since on this forum Andy had stated we could look forward to stable prices shortly after the wholesale price increases from awhile back. I won’t say I won’t buy anymore pieces but my budget is set and it’ll buy me a whole lot less and at the end of the day I don’t think I’m alone. Surely K&C sales and likely revenue must slow down or plateau and that can’t be good business. In my opinion K&C should stop trying to be all things to all collectors and get back to what they do best and aim for their bread and butter market which I think is offering a wide variety of product at the “upper-mid market” price point. Ultimately the success or failure of the premium (P) series will be born out by whether or not we ever see more of them or they disappear forever. Time will tell.

Some very good constructive comments here......well said sir, I think you've covered off things nicely. I'm sure Andy and the K&C team would have given the whole price rise, 'P' range etc a great deal of thought before release and again we have to remember K&C is a business. I like many others are a loyal fan, but sadly the 'Pathfinder' range is a bridge to far for me.

 

[damian]

From looking at the photographs I really cannot see the "Premium" quality that is being used to justify this price increase.
Maybe different up close but for many of us that is not going to happen I am afraid.

 

[wwiibuff]

From looking at the photographs I really cannot see the "Premium" quality that is being used to justify this price increase.
Maybe different up close but for many of us that is not going to happen I am afraid.

I agree. I can't see a big difference in the painting just from looking at the photos. Maybe slight, but I'll only make specific judgement if and when I see one in person. Here are some of my old K&C and their faces look great to me.

 

[Mitch]

Totally agree and, these are relatively older figures well, comparatively and look at the painting to the face I know a couple have said see them in person but, you can still tell when something has been painted well or not or, has little difference at all.
Mitch

I agree. I can't see a big difference in the painting just from looking at the photos. Maybe slight, but I'll only pass specific judgement if and when I see one in person. Here are some of my old K&C and their faces look great to me.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I have posted photos here on the forum of the new WWII releases. Looking at the Paras they appear at least to me to be very well detailed. Looking at the figure with the map, the detail on the map alone is amazing.
It would probably be best to see the figures up close in person before debating their worth ^&cool

 

[arnhem44mad]

I have posted photos here on the forum of the new WWII releases. Looking at the Paras they appear at least to me to be very well detailed. Looking at the figure with the map, the detail on the map alone is amazing.
It would probably be best to see the figures up close in person before debating their worth ^&cool

Yeah but I'd rather pay £35 for a figure with a figure whoich matched the old figures and had a map with scribbles than £55 for a figure with a master piece in his hand but who doesn;t match my other figures.

 

[wwiibuff]

I have posted photos here on the forum of the new WWII releases. Looking at the Paras they appear at least to me to be very well detailed. Looking at the figure with the map, the detail on the map alone is amazing.
It would probably be best to see the figures up close in person before debating their worth ^&cool

I agree with you PA, that's why I said that I would not make specific judgement without seeing them in person, BUT my initial response just from viewing the pictures supplied is that it's hard to tell much difference in some of the faces. However as you point out, the maps on the the new P paratroops seem to be better detailed than maps of older figures, but not all figures come with maps.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Yeah but I'd rather pay £35 for a figure with a figure whoich matched the old figures and had a map with scribbles than £55 for a figure with a master piece in his hand but who doesn;t match my other figures.

and besides, the new map has colours and everyone knows WWII was in black and white. :rolleyes2:^&grin

Terry

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Yeah but I'd rather pay £35 for a figure with a figure whoich matched the old figures and had a map with scribbles than £55 for a figure with a master piece in his hand but who doesn;t match my other figures.

I think it would be fair to say look at the detail of the early K&C sets from the 1999-2001 era. Figures made in 2005 and later have much better detail than those, while current releases to me are better than they were say 5 years ago.
Again I am looking forward to seeing these new "P" releases in person.My final thought on the subject.........................Moving on......

 

[Blowtorch]

If K&C is looking to sell at a higher price point, why not just create a new scale to match First Legion? I think think this would be better than mucking up what is known as the K&C art form. The new scale could be called 'Mini-30', assuming no problem with Ruger Firearms. I think all would be happy. The K&C people who complain about large figures, the classic K&C collector will feel less cheated out of a pose if it's in a different scale, rather than mere paint finish, I think even FL would be happy as it would support their enterprise as well. There are plenty of K&C dioramas on here supplemented with key critical figures from CS, TG, and Figarti. The same would happen in reverse with FL & K&C

 

[Mitch]

can't believe that we are even mentioning a map and its details???? I have a panzer I where the commander has a paper map which is taken from a real map and was a general release.

I have never heard a collector moan because his map on a figure was not more detailed. I would hope that when these figures are examined for those who wish to they do not examine them with older Arnhem as the details allegedly added are more aptly examined with figures from other ranges as these have the newer comparable detail. That's why I believe its possible to achieve this now by addressing the pictures of these and newer figures from other ranges. The comparison is not between the first and second releases of MG its about the stated extra paint detail
Mitch

 

[desk11desk12]

If K&C is looking to sell at a higher price point, why not just create a new scale to match First Legion? I think think this would be better than mucking up what is known as the K&C art form. The new scale could be called 'Mini-30', assuming no problem with Ruger Firearms. I think all would be happy. The K&C people who complain about large figures, the classic K&C collector will feel less cheated out of a pose if it's in a different scale, rather than mere paint finish, I think even FL would be happy as it would support their enterprise as well. There are plenty of K&C dioramas on here supplemented with key critical figures from CS, TG, and Figarti. The same would happen in reverse with FL & K&C

Blowtorch, that's exactly the way to do it IMO. Create 2 price points in the market. You're "bread & butter" line that made you dominate and the premium line to heads up with the Aeroart and FL crowd.

My monthly budget has actually gone done because what's the use? Prices keep going up at faster pace than quality IMO.

It's funny, I CAN find room to buy four $30 figures and store them in my bulging TS closets, but CANNOT for two $55+ figures. Am I alone?

KC's earned the top spot in the market and yet it's left me in the dust with few exceptions. Andy and Laura are smart business people.
They've probably calculated that total revenue goes up despite the price increases because there's plenty of room for another TS player in that class.

I'm not mad, I'm amazed. I guess the step is ours,

Carlos

 

[Firebat]

I think K&C's regular paint is fine, I would rather they fix their terribly oversized guns, they really upset me, there are many new K&C figures I would like to get, but I cant do it. Please fix them ! New paint does not make a refined figure there are other factors like proportion in sculpting. I thought K&C was doing a whole new detailed line not just paint for $55.

I will not mention my new collecting profile, but what I am collecting I am very happy with.

K&C collectors are very loyal and they sometimes dont see the big picture. There are excellent values out there.

 

[gk5717]

All I read on this forum is that people have cut way back on their purchases are stopped buying all together. Put me in that group.
My question is who are these people then that are keeping these companies afloat?
I go back to the early days of $21 dollar figures, I kept up with price increases until about the $35 mark, then I said "whoa". I tried buying the figure here and there, but my collecting habit had already been formed. If a group of say 6 figures were released in a line I collected I bought them all, now I just stopped buying completely. If I can,t have them all, I don,t want any. I also tried putting figures on a want list thinking I would get them later, that never worked at all with the new releases coming out as they did.
So here is one person, me, who 2 or 3 years ago spent between $400 & $500 a month on K&C to a person that spends about $200 a year.
Reading all this about the "P" line of figures has just about sealed the deal.
This, even tho it may sound like it, is not a knock on K&C, they are in this to make money, and they are not a charity. It,s just a shame that long, old time customers of K&C have sorta been left by the wayside.
Gary

 

[45thdiv]

Someone mentioned the map. That is not hand painted, it is a decal. It is just like the tank decals. Just saying.

 

[Ruggles]

I am so new here and new to the hobby that I feel I really don't have much of a voice in this but I will throw in my .02 anyways :tongue:

I can't see a reason why if the paint (and not the detail of the figure itself) is the cause of the price increase why K&C would not release a less expensive version sans the extra paint detail. Seems like the "P" would be a extra lure for those who wanted "the best" version of a given figure while the other collectors would be happy with the standard version.

I pre-ordered one of the K&C French mounted bugler, $110 so the equal of the 2 "P" Arnhem figures I was about to order. Just felt like I was paying too much at $55 each for two, yet I bought two (horse and solider) for $110 or $55 a piece. Makes no sense but does if you know what I mean.

One thing I am fairly familiar with is 1911 model handguns. Since there is not patent on the 1911 upwards of 30 companies make them now. Prices range between $500 and $3500 and up. It has been an ongoing debate for years on the gun forums if the higher price 1911s are worth 6 to 7 times the money of the lower prices ones which in many ways are similar. Lots of going back and forth between the 1911 guys (me included) on the forums and yet the debate rages, I would imagine this "P" vs "Non P" debate will as well as they are similar in many ways. In boils down to the "Law of Diminishing Returns" IMO. At what point does the extra money pays for a "deluxe" model of anything pass the returned perceived value over the "standard" version? That is simply and purely a person choice IMO. I have dropped too much money on 1911s not to have my own opinion on it, but that opinion changes every time I see a 1911 I want {sm4}

 

[MaterJace98]

Your definitely not alone, I strongly agree with you. I think this whole premium thing could be bad for business. If they decide to do more of this premium stuff, they have to at least make more of the Market Garden series and Real West series, or any other series for that matter, that aren't premium (just the standard figures) for collectors like me, who can't afford many of these premium figures. I am worried about these rapidly increasing prices. I have only recently started collecting K&C and have a relatively small collection. So far, I have remained loyal to K&C, right now, my whole collection is just K&C. I think K&C should go back to what they were doing , making good quality figures at reasonable price. They were very successful at that. I don't want to bash K&C, I'm just saying they should try to cater to their biggest collector base, collectors who want to buy good quality, at a reasonable price around $32.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Interesting feedback coming through on this contentious topic, I think it's important collectors take the time to have their say regarding this issue. Maybe a poll would be useful??
I think there is real concern out-there, that this 'P' range may be just the start of a new business strategy for K&C......maybe Andy is testing the waters a wee bit to see what sort of reaction it receives? I don't think there is any question that the Pathfinder figures look fantastic, I think it's more about the price of them.

Would be interested to get some sort of feedback from Andy and the team, I'm sure he would be a little disappointed with some of the comments being made here?

Cheers!